What are demons? The heavenly realms?

oldrunner

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Also, if you read Mat. 12:43-45, you will see how if you have ever been possessed by a demon, to make sure you are "born again", Jhn. 3 .If we just "clean up the house", or get religion, this will not help us one bit, but we will primed for believing and doing worse things.

Just make sure your right with Jesus and have the new birth. Demons can oppress us-and influence our thoughts, but cannot dwell in the same house with the Holy Spirit. Some may disagree with this, but a house cannot be divided. (Mat. 12:25)
 
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Sanoy

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Demons are non-existent beings used to explain disease and evil.
What does this interpretation look like in regards to the story of the possesed and the pigs in Luke 8:26-33.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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First, I'm only quoting you point by point to organize my responses to each of the different, yet unified issues you seem to be questioning. This is not to be combative. I'm going to try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Nothing is meant to be dismissive, antagonistic or combative in anyway. I'm new here and people don't know me so I feel the need to caveat all this.

Also, I have not read all responses and forgive me if any of this sounds like preaching to the choir.

I've been having trouble lately understanding what demons are, and for me that is strange, yet I have been having some spiritual growing pains lately so this may be a part of that. But I almost have doubts demons exist sometimes because it seems like the only thing that provides evidence for them is people acting strange and demonic or people in an occult doing what they believe is the will of a demon.

The only outward workings of these so called demonic forces is either bizarre and absurd behavior or purely evil deeds by humans.

It is strange for me to be having these doubts and feelings because I myself have experienced a form of deliverance and sensed a supernatural existence of evil. I know it is clear in the bible that demons are real.

If you think about this, we are far removed from the cultures that wrote the Bible and had no problem believing in the supernatural. Why is it that they had no problem believing in the supernatural? When you crack open the Bible, and other Ancient Near Eastern literature as comparison, they talked about these beings like it was no question they existed. They testified to their experiences with them, etc.

The point being, overall, the Bible is a book of human witness to us as well as God's revelation through that witness. In other words, human agents used to author the Word of God. General point, as I know people can get caught up in human authors versus God as author, the humans testified of what they saw and experienced.

That shouldn't really be different today if someone testifies that they experienced a supernatural entity. I have, you say you have. Other people testify they exist.
Be careful not to diminish human testimony because if you do that you diminish human testimony that has brought us the scriptures.

Take genesis for example. It only uses the name "the serpent"

And then all of a sudden in the OT other gods and idols were being worshiped which I also believe are demons.

Ancient Near Eastern History and Ancient Middle Eastern language expert Dr. Michael Heiser argues that this is the nachash, in Hebrew "Shining One" and not necessarily "the serpent" although it can be translated as such and elsewhere throughout the Bible, but also in Numbers 21 with the firery serpents. The point here is that these are supernatural entities. Some sources linked below for you to investigate:

Or his Unseen Realm book.

He also argues that after the Tower of Babel during the Table of Nations God divided the nations at that time up according to the sons of God (bene elohim) who in Job are supernatural beings (often only called angels although that is a job description) and these beings that were given supervisory roles over the nations also rebelled. Heiser goes into detail about this in his dissertation far more than I can do justice here. He shows Deuteronomy 32:8 is often mistranslated "according to the Sons of Israel" although Israel did not exist at that time. Better translations are "according to the Sons of God." See the comparisons: https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-8.htm.

Overall, these bene elohim are and were part of the divine council God uses and used to judge nations, etc. It's not unbiblical, you see a divine council event in 1 Kings 22:19-23. Long story short, these supernatural beings rebelled and set themselves up as false gods. So not everything said to be a "god" in the OT is just a statute or demons.

And then all of a sudden when Jesus shows up evil spirits are being cast out of people for the first time in the bible.

You're forgetting the evil spirit that harassed Saul. David's music quelled that spirit although it did not cast it out. Just nitpicking here a little bit.

But who has actually seen one? Some people believe Satan is living in hell but the bible says he walks to and fro about the earth. There are definitely angelic sightings in the bible as if an angel was manifested or standing in front of a person as if they were a person in the bible, but never a demon did this with people.

Scripture testifies of demons in the Gospels and the Epistles. Jesus has a conversation with Legion and other. He simply casts out others. Why does one have to see one to know that they exist based on the testimonies of the Apostles? As I said above, you testify to your own experience, I testify to mine, the Bible is a testimony and we have many more around the world til this day. These are eyewitness accounts of experiences with the supernatural, evil and good.

How are we to know how to combat the forces of darkness if we do not even know what we are up against? How do we do battle with them and keep an impenetrable fortress around us against them? Can they hear what we think? How much do they know about us? If Satan has been here since the beginning and all his forces with him or at least many of them, I would assume some have been watching me or have attempted to throughout my life.

Now is a good time to answer the question, "what are demons?" You have four ways (arugably more) of looking at this:

1) I agree with Sanoy and SeventyOne. If you do not take the Sethite Theory, Ancient Human Kings and Champions Theory with Genesis 6:1-4 then you have something unusual happening with supernatural entities procreating with human women. (Note: Matt 22:30, Mrk 12:25, and Luke 20:36 are talking about obedient angels who do not marry, these verses do not say angels cannot procreate). According to the Book of Enoch, which the anicient Church and Second Temple Jews considered relevant to quote in the New Testament (Jude, and 2 Peter), demons are the disembodied (dead) spirits of Nephilim (giants). Early Church fathers also believed this. That doesn't necessarily make it right, just shows there was a line of belief stretching from ancient Jews to the Early Church until about the 5th century when belief in angels were attacked by skeptics.
2) Demons are fallen angelic beings which is somewhat a traditional view that overruled the above view that had existed in the church.
3) They are evil spirits that just randomly show up in the Bible with no explanation other than they are antagnostic to God's plan and humanity.
4) They are figments of man's imagination used to explain the various evils in the world.

You asked elsewhere in response to someone else as to whether demons are alive? I would say yes. When we die (if you accept view #1 above) then are we still alive? Yes.
Are supernatural beings alive? Yes, so either #2 or #3 above mean they are alive.
The only way they wouldn't be alive is if you accepted view #4.

With that said, we know what we need to know about them to combat them. They are under the authority of Jesus Christ and through His authority and the name of Christ they are sent away and defeated. We also combat them by getting closer to God, aligning our lives with His will and keeping doors closed in our lives that would otherwise invite them in. We don't necessarily need a report on who they are and what they are to gain victory over them.

But I still wonder if they exist. If it is just my own evil nature in me causing my own evil thoughts and desires? Is it invoked by a demon or does it spring up simply because it's in my heart?

I would say you might be worrying too much about the origin of your evil thoughts and desires. In some instances, yes, it's important. If you are being oppressed, it's important to deal with the culprit through the power of Christ. If you are called to help someone possessed, it is important to know they have an evil spirit. It may also be important to know the origin if you need to pray over something like a habitual sin that has you in bondage cause you might need to pray for the link to be broken.

However, overall, where our evil comes from could be a bit of both, it could only be one thing. What we know for certain is they exist, Scripture tells us that. What they are and where they come from is debatable as Scripture is silent on that. We can appeal to ancient tradition as I did above or we can simply rest with the assurance that Christ's name is our weapon against them.

Hope that helps.
Edited: Typed this up to fast while at work. I keep finding typos.
 
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sdowney717

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Demons are not fallen angels. The demons were the evil Nephilim (giants) who died in the great flood.
The fallen angels, God locked up in gloomy dungeons to await the judgement Day.
Of note is verse 4.
True that Satan is still free to roam around, but these fallen angels appear to have been locked away from having influence on earth after the flood.
Can there be a fallen angel who did not sin??
Although it is possible Peter is referring to the fallen angels who mated with human women before the flood, actually this also proves the nephilim are the demons to me.

2 Peter 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
 
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Valetic

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Demons are not fallen angels. The demons were the evil Nephilim (giants) who died in the great flood.
The fallen angels, God locked up in gloomy dungeons to await the judgement Day.
Of note is verse 4.
True that Satan is still free to roam around, but these fallen angels appear to have been locked away from having influence on earth after the flood.
Can there be a fallen angel who did not sin??
Although it is possible Peter is referring to the fallen angels who mated with human women before the flood, actually this also proves the nephilim are the demons to me.

2 Peter 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Then who or what was legion?
 
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sdowney717

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Then who or what was legion?
Simply many demons, is there any textual clue they were angels?
God locked up the angels who sinned, and they can not roam around to cause troubles for men or God anymore.. if you believe what 2 Peter says.

For some reason, God did not lock up Satan yet, and has allowed Satan to roam around and cause troubles, along with Satan's seed, those demonic creations.
 
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oldrunner

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First, I'm only quoting you point by point to organize my responses to each of the different, yet unified issues you seem to be questioning. This is not to be combative. I'm going to try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Nothing is meant to be dismissive, antagonistic or combative in anyway. I'm new here and people don't know me so I feel the need to caveat all this.

Also, I have not read all responses and forgive me if any of this sounds like preaching to the choir.



If you think about this, we are far removed from the cultures that wrote the Bible and had no problem believing in the supernatural. Why is it that they had no problem believing in the supernatural? When you crack open the Bible, and other Ancient Near Eastern literature as comparison, they talked about these beings like it was no question they existed. They testified to their experiences with them, etc.

The point being, overall, the Bible is a book of human witness to us as well as God's revelation through that witness. In other words, human agents used to author the Word of God. General point, as I know people can get caught up in human authors versus God as author, the humans testified of what they saw and experienced.

That shouldn't really be different today if someone testifies that they experienced a supernatural entity. I have, you say you have. Other people testify they exist.
Be careful not to diminish human testimony because if you do that you diminish human testimony that has brought us the scriptures.



Ancient Near Eastern History and Ancient Middle Eastern language expert Dr. Michael Heiser argues that this is the nachash, in Hebrew "Shining One" and not necessarily "the serpent" although it can be translated as such and elsewhere throughout the Bible, but also in Numbers 21 with the firery serpents. The point here is that these are supernatural entities. Some sources linked below for you to investigate:

Or his Unseen Realm book.

He also argues that after the Tower of Babel during the Table of Nations God divided the nations at that time up according to the sons of God (bene elohim) who in Job are supernatural beings (often only called angels although that is a job description) and these beings that were given supervisory roles over the nations also rebelled. Heiser goes into detail about this in his dissertation far more than I can do justice here. He shows Deuteronomy 32:8 is often mistranslated "according to the Sons of Israel" although Israel did not exist at that time. Better translations are "according to the Sons of God." See the comparisons: https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-8.htm.

Overall, these bene elohim are and were part of the divine council God uses and used to judge nations, etc. It's not unbiblical, you see a divine council event in 1 Kings 22:19-23. Long story short, these supernatural beings rebelled and set themselves up as false gods. So not everything said to be a "god" in the OT is just a statute or demons.



You're forgetting the evil spirit that harassed Saul. David's music quelled that spirit although it did not cast it out. Just nitpicking here a little bit.



Scripture testifies of demons in the Gospels and the Epistles. Jesus has a conversation with Legion and other. He simply casts out others. Why does one have to see one to know that they exist based on the testimonies of the Apostles? As I said above, you testify to your own experience, I testify to mine, the Bible is a testimony and we have many more around the world til this day. These are eyewitness accounts of experiences with the supernatural, evil and good.



Now is a good time to answer the question, "what are demons?" You have four ways (arugably more) of looking at this:

1) I agree with Sanoy and SeventyOne. If you do not take the Sethite Theory, Ancient Human Kings and Champions Theory with Genesis 6:1-4 then you have something unusual happening with supernatural entities procreating with human women. (Note: Matt 22:30, Mrk 12:25, and Luke 20:36 are talking about obedient angels who do not marry, these verses do not say angels cannot procreate). According to the Book of Enoch, which the anicient Church and Second Temple Jews considered relevant to quote in the New Testament (Jude, and 2 Peter), demons are the disembodied (dead) spirits of Nephilim (giants). Early Church fathers also believed this. That doesn't necessarily make it right, just shows there was a line of belief stretching from ancient Jews to the Early Church until about the 5th century when belief in angels were attacked by skeptics.
2) Demons are fallen angelic beings which is somewhat a traditional view that overruled the above view that had existed in the church.
3) They are evil spirits that just randomly show up in the Bible with no explanation other than they are antagnostic to God's plan and humanity.
4) They are figments of man's imagination used to explain the various evils in the world.

You asked elsewhere in response to someone else as to whether demons are alive? I would say yes. When we die (if you accept view #1 above) then are we still alive? Yes.
Are supernatural beings alive? Yes, so either #2 or #3 above mean they are alive.
The only way they wouldn't be alive is if you accepted view #4.

With that said, we know what we need to know about them to combat them. They are under the authority of Jesus Christ and through His authority and the name of Christ they are sent away and defeated. We also combat them by getting closer to God, aligning our lives with His will and keeping doors closed in our lives that would otherwise invite them in. We don't necessarily need a report on who they are and what they are to gain victory over them.



I would say you might be worrying too much about the origin of your evil thoughts and desires. In some instances, yes, it's important. If you are being oppressed, it's important to deal with the culprit through the power of Christ. If you are called to help someone possessed, it is important to know they have an evil spirit. It may also be important to know the origin if you need to pray over something like a habitual sin that has you in bondage cause you might need to pray for the link to be broken.

However, overall, where our evil comes from could be a bit of both, it could only be one thing. What we know for certain is they exist, Scripture tells us that. What they are and where they come from is debatable as Scripture is silent on that. We can appeal to ancient tradition as I did above or we can simply rest with the assurance that Christ's name is our weapon against them.

Hope that helps.
Edited: Typed this up to fast while at work. I keep finding typos.

Interesting article! :)

My problem with the theory that they are wandering spirits if the giants is:

#1. Jesus in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus taught that there are only two places we go when we die. Hades or Heaven (Abrahams Bosom). Notice angels carry the souls of saved to Heaven, just like they will bring the souls back with Jesus at the resurrection/Parousia/coming, and thus be put back with their new bodies. (1st Thess. 4, Mat. 24, 1st Cor. 15, Rev. 6-7) Notice also, that in Rev 20, death and hades are thrown in the lake of fire. So, if these were men, their souls would be in Hades. They would not be wandering around the Earth. The angels that Sinned (back then) are now locked up in the bottomless pit, awaiting the Day of The Lord to be released, and Demons do not want to be confined there-like we learn in Luke.

#2. Jesus again taught the reality that demons need a host to express themselves. He showed us that in Luke 8, and in Mat. 12. They look for a "house", body to indwell. And also they had to ask Jesus permission to indwell the swine. This may or may not be of a law of God- after Satan indwelled an animal in the Garden (a serpent), that they cannot indwell animals without God's permission.

It's clear because of the connection of Rev. 20:2, that Satan did indeed indwell the snake. The other angels that followed Satan's sin, learned they could indwell unredeemed men-like Satan indwelt serpent, and "live out", life in a physical form, in the Earthly realm. Notice, Gen. 6:4 calls them "men", and they were big! (Duet. 3:11) But they were men. They had a human soul. Most likely, the indwelling produced a condition like gigantism that produced abnormal growth of the host. That demon possession produces great strength is shown in Luke too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism

#3. The extra Biblical is nice, but not inspired and we cannot trust it. The portion quoted in Jude is what God wants to know about this matter. And everything else that I have laid out lines up with the Scripture in a way that makes sense. There are "Jewish fables", that we should not listen to. ( Titus 1:14).

#4. Like the angels in Heaven carries pretty much weight, IMO. Why would created angels need sex organs? They are all masculine, but this does not men they have penises. ;) Also Angels and demons are spiritual beings. Demons are called unclean spirits (pneuma), throughout the Gospels. They do not have physical body in this realm-unless God allows it. (Ps. 104:4, 2nd Kings 2:11-12)

Taking all this together, I think your #2, is right. :)

Also, yes Paul was given a demon to buffet him so he would not be lifted up with pride. And it came and went with Saul. A disobedient child of God may be turned over to a demon, all the way unto death. (1st Cor. 5:5) God uses the demons to accomplish His will. But total control of a believer-like and unbeliever, no, I don't believe so. So, I just wanted to make that clear. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Loren T.

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How are we to know how to combat the forces of darkness if we do not even know what we are up against? How do we do battle with them and keep an impenetrable fortress around us against them? Can they hear what we think? How much do they know about us? If Satan has been here since the beginning and all his forces with him or at least many of them, I would assume some have been watching me or have attempted to throughout my life.

I don't understand this whole thread. You say you have seen people affected by demons, but don't believe they exist?
If you have experience their effect on you, how can you doubt their existence?

Right offhand, I can't think of any demons taking human form in the Bible, but rather inhabiting humans. They are pretty consistently referred to as spirits, so of course you normally aren't going to see them with your physical eyes.
Read Ephesians 6 to understand how to stand against Satan and his minions.
And don't be afraid to rebuke them in Jesus' name.
 
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oldrunner

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Simply many demons, is there any textual clue they were angels?
God locked up the angels who sinned, and they can not roam around to cause troubles for men or God anymore.. if you believe what 2 Peter says.

For some reason, God did not lock up Satan yet, and has allowed Satan to roam around and cause troubles, along with Satan's seed, those demonic creations.

Hey 717! Did you follow the chain to Rev 9, the bottomless pit? This is where those angles are locked up now. Of course, there are still plenty to go around now! :(
 
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oldrunner

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Demons are not fallen angels. The demons were the evil Nephilim (giants) who died in the great flood.
The fallen angels, God locked up in gloomy dungeons to await the judgement Day.
Of note is verse 4.
True that Satan is still free to roam around, but these fallen angels appear to have been locked away from having influence on earth after the flood.
Can there be a fallen angel who did not sin??
Although it is possible Peter is referring to the fallen angels who mated with human women before the flood, actually this also proves the nephilim are the demons to me.

2 Peter 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Yeah, but they were alive after the flood too. :) Duet 3:11. It says "and also after that" too.
 
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Valetic

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Simply many demons

Then how do you classify them when they were speaking to Jesus when He was casting them out of a man? The man wasn't a nephilim, and if the fallen angels were locked away then that rules that out...

The demons were the evil Nephilim (giants) who died in the great flood.
The fallen angels, God locked up in gloomy dungeons to await the judgement Day.
 
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oldrunner

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The name Giant is "Nephil" where we get the Nephilim- to fall. Or the fallen ones. This could mean like being very aggressive too. At least from what I've gathered.

I understand they are fallen angels because of Rev. 12:4, the stars being angels, and Jude 6, where the angels that sinned left there habitation/house-heaven. So, 1/3 of the angels are fallen angels- having rebelled with Satan. The real bad ones in the first world are locked up-like you said, and the rest have free reign on the Earth and access to Heaven-to do Gods will. Eph. 6 shows they are still in heaven too.
 
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I find it odd that we as Christians can't agree on something like this, that all the apostles probably were in agreement on this, as far as knowing what they were - the demons we are talking about.
 
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Then how do you classify them when they were speaking to Jesus when He was casting them out of a man? The man wasn't a nephilim, and if the fallen angels were locked away then that rules that out...
The whole nephilim thing is so hard to interpret, it's best not to form any doctrines out of that one obscure verse. Much more reasonable to take all the verses about fallen angels and demons and see what shakes out. Let scripture interpret scripture.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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Interesting article! :)

Thanks, and thanks for responding.:)

My problem with the theory that they are wandering spirits if the giants is:

#1. Jesus in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus taught that there are only two places we go when we die. Hades or Heaven (Abrahams Bosom). Notice angels carry the souls of saved to Heaven, just like they will bring the souls back with Jesus at the resurrection/Parousia/coming, and thus be put back with their new bodies. (1st Thess. 4, Mat. 24, 1st Cor. 15, Rev. 6-7) Notice also, that in Rev 20, death and hades are thrown in the lake of fire. So, if these were men, their souls would be in Hades. They would not be wandering around the Earth. The angels that Sinned (back then) are now locked up in the bottomless pit, awaiting the Day of The Lord to be released, and Demons do not want to be confined there-like we learn in Luke.

You list a couple things for your #1 so I will address them each:
1a) The story of the rich man and Lazarus is about where 100% humans go when they die. If we accept that there were hybrid (half angel for sake of argument/half human) creatures then they are somewhat partially supernatural and partially natural. Would the same rules of death apply to them? Especially if scripture doesn't outright address it. Instead, it references extra-Biblical literature on it in the New Testament.
1b) Where exactly does 1 Thessalonians 4 indicate angels carry souls of the saved to Heaven and will bring the souls back during Jesus' resurrection? Instead, I read that those who die will rise again. When compared with 1 Corinthians 15 we know this will be in a resurrection body, not souls. The latter is also talking about resurrection with no mention of angels transporting souls. Revelation 6-7 is about the six seals, 144,000 and the Great Multitude in Heaven.
1c) Yes, death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. The angels who committed the sexually immoral sin are locked up in Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6). Their offspring is another story.

#2. Jesus again taught the reality that demons need a host to express themselves. He showed us that in Luke 8, and in Mat. 12. They look for a "house", body to indwell. And also they had to ask Jesus permission to indwell the swine. This may or may not be of a law of God- after Satan indwelled an animal in the Garden (a serpent), that they cannot indwell animals without God's permission.

This doesn't challenge the disembodied spirits of giants theory. Anyone I know who holds that demons are disembodied spirits of giants also embrace that they seek a host, a body to indwell.

The word used in Genesis is Nachash. Nachash can mean serpent in its noun form, but in verb form, it means "shining one, but the book I attached and the lecture gives good arguments that it can also mean the shining one. Heiser explains it should be used as an adjective here and therefore in Genesis 3, the shining one deceived Eve. However, the word also explains serpentine appearances of some of these beings which many of the elohim (seraphim, cherubim, etc.) were.

It's clear because of the connection of Rev. 20:2, that Satan did indeed indwell the snake. The other angels that followed Satan's sin, learned they could indwell unredeemed men-like Satan indwelt serpent, and "live out", life in a physical form, in the Earthly realm.

Satan is actually "The Adversary" and the Devil/Lucifer usually fulfills that position. A little nitpick.
Still, we disagree on the indwelling in Eden. In Eden, Adam and Eve walked among God and other entities. (See Ezekiel 28:12b-19 for quick reference). Thus, if Satan/Lucifer was already among them and Adam and Eve knew of him, why would he have to indwell a snake/serpent to talk to them. He'd just walk up to them and sow the seeds of doubt with "Ye have God said?"

Also, if you investigate the word Nachash you will learn that almost everytime it's used the beings have a serpentine likeness. See the Firery flying Serpents since this word is used for Seraphim in Numbers 21.

Notice, Gen. 6:4 calls them "men", and they were big! (Duet. 3:11) But they were men. They had a human soul. Most likely, the indwelling produced a condition like gigantism that produced abnormal growth of the host. That demon possession produces great strength is shown in Luke too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantism

Genesis 6:4 calls them Nephilim. There is pretty much no translation that calls them "men" in Genesis 6:4. Here is a comparison: https://biblehub.com/genesis/6-4.htm. Nearly all either translate them as "giants" or leave the word "Nephilim" or there are some other translations such as "fallen ones" or "the children of supernatural beings who had married these women..."

Gigantism and being a Nephilim are two different things. Gigantism is a disease, a disorder and many people with it are frail. Those like the wrestler Andre the Giant are exceptions to the rule. However, when we look at someone like Goliath and his brothers we see able bodied fighting giants who could wear roughly 126 lb. armor, and carry 15-20 lb. weapons with ease and fight with speed. Remember Goliath was the champion of Philistines from fighting death matches. He wasn't a simple pushover. If you want to argue Goliath is not a Nephilim, then you only have to look at the other Nephilim mentioned in the scriptures that the Children of Israel had to fight to cleanse the land. The Rephaim, Anakim, and occasionally some among the Amorites. These weren't large, deformed, and frail warriors with gigantism.

#3. The extra Biblical is nice, but not inspired and we cannot trust it. The portion quoted in Jude is what God wants to know about this matter. And everything else that I have laid out lines up with the Scripture in a way that makes sense. There are "Jewish fables", that we should not listen to. ( Titus 1:14).

The history of Christianity is Jewish. There are Jewish fables then there are Jewish commentaries that assist in understanding things we may not otherwise understand. None of this is dogmatic. You can happily go along and establish a relationship with Christ without ever knowing who the Nephilim or demons are. But when someone asks a question like "Who are these Nephilim in Genesis 6?" or "Who/What are Demons?" Then you have to look a bit deeper and not just stop at Christian tradition from the middle ages.

Overall, I agree, book of Enoch is not inspired, but it is heavily used in theological courses and Ancient Near Eastern studies and compared with existing scripture and texts.

#4. Like the angels in Heaven carries pretty much weight, IMO. Why would created angels need sex organs? They are all masculine, but this does not men they have penises. ;) Also Angels and demons are spiritual beings. Demons are called unclean spirits (pneuma), throughout the Gospels. They do not have physical body in this realm-unless God allows it. (Ps. 104:4, 2nd Kings 2:11-12)

Spiritual is just a way of describing their existing form. We do an injustice by assuming spirit means non-physical in the sense they don't have a type of physical body. Simply because it is not exactly like our current form does not mean this is something whimsical, transparent, and non-physical. Psalm 104:4 does not necessarily mean they only have a physical body when God allows it. Nor does 2 Kings 2:11-12. Those passages mean that they are doing the work of God as sent by God. Here's a question, when we all move from this side of creation to the next, from this form of existence to the next, will God and the supernatural entities on the other side of creation still be invisible, incorporeal beings or will they have some type of form in that realm that can interact with us?

Spiritual beings can take on a physical body. God and his supernatural entourage ate with Abraham, they can attack armies, carry people, etc. When Jesus was being tempted for 40 days and 40 nights, the Devil appeared to him and interacted with him. Was the Devil intangible then, with no physical body?

Also, the likening to the angels was in the context of marriage and the resurrection and not capability to procreate. When this comes up everyone reads sex into that passage when the question was about marriage in the first place. Yes, marriage can assume there would be intimacy, but the context of the question was "whose wife would she be?" not "Whom will she procreate with?" (Matthew 22:23-28; Luke 20:27-33; and Mark 12:18-23)

Taking all this together, I think your #2, is right. :)

I disagree. I don't see anywhere to see demons as fallen angels, but I know that is what many in the Church believe.

Also, yes Paul was given a demon to buffet him so he would not be lifted up with pride. And it came and went with Saul. A disobedient child of God may be turned over to a demon, all the way unto death. (1st Cor. 5:5) God uses the demons to accomplish His will. But total control of a believer-like and unbeliever, no, I don't believe so. So, I just wanted to make that clear. :oldthumbsup:

There might be some arguments from experiences that may challenge this view of demonic possession or as some say, oppression, among professing Christians.

However, I agree. Paul was oppressed. Saul seemed to be possessed tho, but that's debatable.

Edited to add:
The name Giant is "Nephil" where we get the Nephilim- to fall. Or the fallen ones. This could mean like being very aggressive too. At least from what I've gathered.

I understand they are fallen angels because of Rev. 12:4, the stars being angels, and Jude 6, where the angels that sinned left there habitation/house-heaven. So, 1/3 of the angels are fallen angels- having rebelled with Satan. The real bad ones in the first world are locked up-like you said, and the rest have free reign on the Earth and access to Heaven-to do Gods will. Eph. 6 shows they are still in heaven too.

According to Dr. Heiser, the word Nephilim actually most likely comes from an Aramaic noun naphiyla which means giant, when you insert it into the Hebrew and pluralize it, you get nephiylim. He also explains that in order to get "those who fall" or "Fallen ones" you would have to spell the word nophelim or nephulim rather than the known nephilim.

I find it odd that we as Christians can't agree on something like this, that all the apostles probably were in agreement on this, as far as knowing what they were - the demons we are talking about.

I would say it's because we have over 2000 years of Christian tradition that is far removed from the Early Church in some areas. Does not mean Christian tradition is necessarily bad, but take for instance, the view that demons = fallen angels, that's more Christian tradition in which the Bible is used to defend it rather than find out what the Ancients might have believed when they wrote these things down. If that is possible anyway, it's not always possible to do if we don't have supporting texts to help us figure out what they were thinking around the time a book of the Bible was written or how they interpreted an obscure passage in Genesis 6 like the Book of Enoch as referenced in Jude and 2 Peter.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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I’ve seen them. A black shadow figure that paralized me, sat on my chest and tried to sufficate me. A shadow man with long alienesq fingers. Google “sleep paralysis”. I’m not alone in this. In fact Jesus revealed himself to me shortly after that experience.

I've had this happen as well. Then it oppressed me a whole day before I had to cast it out of the house.
 
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sdowney717

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Yeah, but they were alive after the flood too. :) Duet 3:11. It says "and also after that" too.
I know, so they came back. Some have said that their dna was in the wives of Noah's sons. Or not all the fallen angels were locked up after the flood, which means the angels who sinned in that verse were the ones who had mated with human women, and other free fallen angels repeated that sin.

The nephilim when they were killed because they are neither angel or man, God allowed to roam the earth as evil spirits. They lost their bodies and since they have some spiritual power, seek to inhabit another, that is called demonic possession, they miss having their body. And it through the body of a man that they can cause much troubles in the lives of men. An angel even fallen ones are of a different nature.
 
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