LDS LDS Temple Weddings are anti-family

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dzheremi

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I'm surprised that you would use the word wacky to describe a Mormon temple wedding. I have seen a lot of wacky drunken weddings before, but a Mormon wedding in a temple is the opposite of wacky.

Well, you -- the Mormon -- would know, wouldn't you? We -- the non-Mormons -- wouldn't know.

That's kinda the point of the thread...

So maybe you need to ask a good active Mormon about that before you use terms like wacky.

Maybe your religion needs to stop hiding from people. Then there'd be no reason to not describe according to what actually happens. As it is, it seems pretty wacky to me. All this hush-hush stuff for what seems like an imitation of a secular ceremony, based on the description that has been posted elsewhere in the thread.

So, no, I think I'll keep describing it like that until the Mormon religion stops being a cult and is willing to let other people see what's going on without first becoming Mormons and earning temple recommends.

Not sure what you mean by uneven application of the Mormon temple ceremony policy. It is not uneven, it exists for all who marry in the temple.

Read the article. It talks about the differences in marriage requirements for Mormons inside of the United Sates and outside of it, as well as the development of Mormon marriage practices away from what had been the historical standard to something that is more restrictive.

The power that Jesus gave Peter to bind or loose on earth and it will be bound or loosed in heaven is a real power. Peter was given the keys of the KOH. These keys have been lost since Peter died, and were restored to the earth by Peter himself when he was sent by Jesus Christ to JS and gave him the binding and loosing powers again. Otherwise JS could not do anything and have it be accepted by heaven.

I don't care about your organization's lies, Peter. This ridiculous narrative has nothing to do with the topic of how anti-family Mormon temple weddings are, as such occult ceremonies were not founded by Christ or the apostles at any point.

It is essential to salvation that these keys be used as you go through the salvation process, and although the temple wedding is essential for the highest form of salvation, it is not essential for lower forms of salvation.

More Gnostic nonsense. :rolleyes:

Before and during the time of the millenium, there will be a lot of work to get people ready for salvation.

Millenialism is condemned by the ancient Church, down through to today. "Whose kingdom will have no end."

Remember that only a few of billions and billions of people have even heard of the name Jesus. All have to be given the chance to hear and accept. It will be a monumental work, that I suspect you will be actively engaged in, being a good Christian.

That would be the case if it weren't for the fact that Mormon soteriology is completely false and anti-Christian.

If you marry civilly first there is no assumption at all. It is because you are not willing to take upon yourself and live the higher principals of the gospel of Jesus Christ at this time.

Hahaha. Peter, did you read and think about the first sentence that you wrote before writing that second sentence in this passage?

Mary Ellen Robertson is the director of Sunstone. Sunstone is not dedicated to the study of Mormonism, it is dedicated to expose what they think is the real Mormonism and to eradicate it.

I don't care. Smear campaigns only work if the ones doing the smearing are of more exemplary character than those they smear. That's not true in the case of the LDS organization, so...yeah, don't care.

Give me a break, she got married in the temple 20 years ago and still has not recovered from not having some of her friends at the wedding. That is too much to even listen too. Go get another life if you still haven't recovered after 20 years. Seriously let it go and get another marriage and get those friends that could not come to your temple wedding and have another wedding so they can be there this time.

Wow. No comment. I'll just let that stand so that all can read it.

Your last paragraph is logical.

I actually don't think so, if you mean the last quote from the article. It makes sense why Mormons would want to make such a comparison, and see it as being very logical, but having been Roman Catholic myself at one time, I can say with some degree of confidence that probably no Catholic would agree with such a comparison. For one thing, unless I have been misinformed in the summary I have read, the Mormon marriage ceremony is not a Eucharistic celebration (well, Mormonism doesn't really have a 'Eucharist', at least not as Roman Catholics or other traditional Christians would understand it, but I mean that you do not distribute your sacrament there), so it's much more akin to something like Vespers or another prayer service. Such services can be attended and participated in by anyone, and Catholics would no doubt welcome non-Catholics to do so.
 
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dzheremi

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You are simple if you think that when you die, you do not continue to live as a spirit being.

The point for me is not in whether or not you continue to live or you die (I believe that there is some sense in which you continue to live, the martyrs mentioned in Revelation being one example, though we do not know exactly how), but about how time may be experienced after death. If you think that these 'spirit beings', as you call them, have concern about how long it will take for them to get baptized by proxy in the Mormon religion, then they must have some way of measuring time. How do they do that? Do they wear 'spirit watches' or keep 'spirit datebooks'?

And if you are in a spirit prison, that Jesus visited when he went to the spirit world after his death, you would want to explore all possible reasons to get out of that prison as soon as possible, right?

No need. There's only one way. To borrow liberally from the Byzantine Troparion for the Resurrection, "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and offering life to those in the tombs."

You accept Christ's offer. The end. No Mormon missionaries needed.

Jesus opened the way when he was in the spirit world for 3 days after his death, and one of the things he did was preach unto the spirits in spirit prison. Why do you think he preached unto them. It was to present them with the name of Jesus Christ their Redeemer and start the process of repentance so they could leave their prison and go into the paradise portion of the spirit world. Remember he told the thief on the cross he would be with him in paradise.

Indeed He did. What that has to do with the rest of what you've posted, I haven't the faintest clue.

We know very little about the spirit world from the Bible, but we are told of 2 places. Paradise and spirit prison. Through JS and revelations from Jesus Christ we know a whole lot more.

No we don't. Joseph Smith never received any revelation. (At least not from God...)

A dead, rotting body may not have a calendar, but a living spirit may, I haven't seen their spirit abode, but I would not think that they are unaware of time passing.

So I guess both the OT (Psalm 90) and the NT (2 Peter 3) are wrong when they say that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day? I don't think they are, but apparently you and/or JS know better than the Holy Bible.

You can make fun all you wish, but the truth is the truth and it will stand regardless of your knowledge or understanding.

Clearly. What do you think every single Christian has been trying to tell the Mormons in their lives when you guys blatantly contradict the scriptures in favor of your chosen false revelation? The difference being that we have 2,000 years of apostolic tradition and faith (including of course the scriptures themselves and all the works of the fathers who wrote them, preserved them, and canonized them) to fall back on, whereas for Mormonism, if Joseph Smith was a false prophet -- and I won't mince words here, few things have ever been so clear as Joseph Smith's false prophethood is -- the entire edifice of the religion crumbles to dust and is shown to be nothing more than the avarice and rebellion against God that one particularly persuasive 19th century conman displayed, codified into a false religion sold to those who are starved of anything resembling the Christian faith, all the while being told and repeating that they are the only true faith left on the earth.

Lord have mercy.
 
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He is the way

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Well, you -- the Mormon -- would know, wouldn't you? We -- the non-Mormons -- wouldn't know.

That's kinda the point of the thread...



Maybe your religion needs to stop hiding from people. Then there'd be no reason to not describe according to what actually happens. As it is, it seems pretty wacky to me. All this hush-hush stuff for what seems like an imitation of a secular ceremony, based on the description that has been posted elsewhere in the thread.

So, no, I think I'll keep describing it like that until the Mormon religion stops being a cult and is willing to let other people see what's going on without first becoming Mormons and earning temple recommends.



Read the article. It talks about the differences in marriage requirements for Mormons inside of the United Sates and outside of it, as well as the development of Mormon marriage practices away from what had been the historical standard to something that is more restrictive.



I don't care about your organization's lies, Peter. This ridiculous narrative has nothing to do with the topic of how anti-family Mormon temple weddings are, as such occult ceremonies were not founded by Christ or the apostles at any point.



More Gnostic nonsense. :rolleyes:



Millenialism is condemned by the ancient Church, down through to today. "Whose kingdom will have no end."



That would be the case if it weren't for the fact that Mormon soteriology is completely false and anti-Christian.



Hahaha. Peter, did you read and think about the first sentence that you wrote before writing that second sentence in this passage?



I don't care. Smear campaigns only work if the ones doing the smearing are of more exemplary character than those they smear. That's not true in the case of the LDS organization, so...yeah, don't care.



Wow. No comment. I'll just let that stand so that all can read it.



I actually don't think so, if you mean the last quote from the article. It makes sense why Mormons would want to make such a comparison, and see it as being very logical, but having been Roman Catholic myself at one time, I can say with some degree of confidence that probably no Catholic would agree with such a comparison. For one thing, unless I have been misinformed in the summary I have read, the Mormon marriage ceremony is not a Eucharistic celebration (well, Mormonism doesn't really have a 'Eucharist', at least not as Roman Catholics or other traditional Christians would understand it, but I mean that you do not distribute your sacrament there), so it's much more akin to something like Vespers or another prayer service. Such services can be attended and participated in by anyone, and Catholics would no doubt welcome non-Catholics to do so.
You said:

until the Mormon religion stops being a cult
your organization's lies
More Gnostic nonsense
Mormon soteriology is completely false and anti-Christian.

Do you need to read the rules on flaming?
  • Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.
 
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dzheremi

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That is addressing the content of the post, HITW. When any Mormon asserts their religion's narrative as the reason for the situation as discussed in the OP (LDS weddings excluding LDS family from the temple ceremony), then it is fair to say such things. It is not with prejudice towards any person, but directly confronting the ideas of the organization when they are presented as truth even though they are in fact in conflict with the Christian religion.

A few points to keep in mind:

  • We have discussed at length in the past the cult-like nature of the LDS religion (with no ill effects, moderation-wise), and so it is not in any way flaming to point it out here as well. It is not an attack on any individual Mormon or Mormons as a group, but a rebuttal of the Mormon cult-like practice of restricting information and access to ceremonies according to one's level with regard to the organization (non-Mormons, Mormons, and then of course the temple-worthy subset of Mormons). This is of the essence of Gnosticism as well (recall that the gnostics believed in a saving knowledge held by a certain class to the restriction of others, just as Peter has pointed out with regard to marriage being necessary for the greatest degree of salvation or whatever the exact wording is).
  • Providing a way by which Mormonism could stop seeming like such a cult (by opening up their ceremonies to everybody to observe, as Christianity already does) is hardly defaming it. The same could be said of any religion which is set up in the same way, e.g., Scientology, which I doubt Mormons would protest on behalf of if I or anyone were to call it a cult (which it uncontroversially is, for exactly the same reasons as Mormonism is, albeit to a much greater degree). So this is really just special pleading on your part, and there is no part of the forum rules which state that Christian members have to give in to the special pleading of non-Christians in order to avoid "flaming".
  • Mormon soteriology is completely false and anti-Christian. Nobody is saved "after all that they can do", and certainly not by accepting Mormonism in the afterlife. It's not flaming to state that fact relative to Christianity's true and solid teaching on this or any other matter, and Christianity is the entire reason this website exists -- not Mormonism. If you want a place where you can post Mormon beliefs as though they are fact and have them treated as such, then you need to go to an LDS website.
 
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He is the way

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That is addressing the content of the post, HITW. When any Mormon asserts their religion's narrative as the reason for the situation as discussed in the OP (LDS weddings excluding LDS family from the temple ceremony), then it is fair to say such things. It is not with prejudice towards any person, but directly confronting the ideas of the organization when they are presented as truth even though they are in fact in conflict with the Christian religion.

A few points to keep in mind:

  • We have discussed at length in the past the cult-like nature of the LDS religion (with no ill effects, moderation-wise), and so it is not in any way flaming to point it out here as well. It is not an attack on any individual Mormon or Mormons as a group, but a rebuttal of the Mormon cult-like practice of restricting information and access to ceremonies according to one's level with regard to the organization (non-Mormons, Mormons, and then of course the temple-worthy subset of Mormons). This is of the essence of Gnosticism as well (recall that the gnostics believed in a saving knowledge held by a certain class to the restriction of others, just as Peter has pointed out with regard to marriage being necessary for the greatest degree of salvation or whatever the exact wording is).
  • Providing a way by which Mormonism could stop seeming like such a cult (by opening up their ceremonies to everybody to observe, as Christianity already does) is hardly defaming it. The same could be said of any religion which is set up in the same way, e.g., Scientology, which I doubt Mormons would protest on behalf of if I or anyone were to call it a cult (which it uncontroversially is, for exactly the same reasons as Mormonism is, albeit to a much greater degree). So this is really just special pleading on your part, and there is no part of the forum rules which state that Christian members have to give in to the special pleading of non-Christians in order to avoid "flaming".
  • Mormon soteriology is completely false and anti-Christian. Nobody is saved "after all that they can do", and certainly not by accepting Mormonism in the afterlife. It's not flaming to state that fact relative to Christianity's true and solid teaching on this or any other matter, and Christianity is the entire reason this website exists -- not Mormonism. If you want a place where you can post Mormon beliefs as though they are fact and have them treated as such, then you need to go to an LDS website.
You have insulted Mormons as a group and called our leaders liars which is against the rules.
 
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dzheremi

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Whatever. I trust the mods more than some primitive one-man inquisition here. Do you see me crying to the mods every time a Mormon calls the fathers "sinful men" or the Creed "the vote of sinful men", or disparages Christianity and Christians as being lost for not following Joseph Smith? Those things happen too, and I don't see you or any other Mormon poster so quick to counsel your fellow Mormons about how they shouldn't do that, because that's entirely correct within the Mormon narrative about why you guys are right and we are not.

So spare me. When you're a mod, I'll listen to you, but until then I don't your reminders. It's not like I referred to Mormonism as a Christian religion or something, which Mormon posters also frequently do despite it being against the rules.
 
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He is the way

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Whatever. I trust the mods more than some primitive one-man inquisition here. Do you see me crying to the mods every time a Mormon calls the fathers "sinful men" or the Creed "the vote of sinful men", or disparages Christianity and Christians as being lost for not following Joseph Smith? Those things happen too, and I don't see you or any other Mormon poster so quick to counsel your fellow Mormons about how they shouldn't do that, because that's entirely correct within the Mormon narrative about why you guys are right and we are not.

So spare me. When you're a mod, I'll listen to you, but until then I don't your reminders. It's not like I referred to Mormonism as a Christian religion or something, which Mormon posters also frequently do despite it being against the rules.
CF was not set up as a place to harass and insult Mormons. You know the rules and you would do well to obey them.
 
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dzheremi

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Again, I trust the mods to deal fairly with anything they're given. There is nothing wrong with discussing the cultish aspects of Mormonism. Again, this has happened here for as long as I've been interacting with Mormons on this website (the example I linked to was a year and a half ago), and since the point of talking about it is to point out how it can be labelled as such by virtue of what the Mormon religion does (in the case of what this thread is actually about, banning family members who are not Mormon from attending Mormon temple wedding ceremonies), it's not really possible to make it into a personal attack on Mormons as people, no matter how much you'd like it to be otherwise.
 
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He is the way

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Again, I trust the mods to deal fairly with anything they're given. There is nothing wrong with discussing the cultish aspects of Mormonism. Again, this has happened here for as long as I've been interacting with Mormons on this website (the example I linked to was a year and a half ago), and since the point of talking about it is to point out how it can be labelled as such by virtue of what the Mormon religion does (in the case of what this thread is actually about, banning family members who are not Mormon from attending Mormon temple wedding ceremonies), it's not really possible to make it into a personal attack on Mormons as people, no matter how much you'd like it to be otherwise.
So you think it is fine to call Oriental Orthodox leaders liars and anti-Christian cultists and say they are up to their Gnostic nonsense? Or perhaps we could say whatever we want to say as long as we believe it to be true.
 
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dzheremi

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So you think it is fine to call Oriental Orthodox leaders liars and anti-Christian cultists and say they are up to their Gnostic nonsense? Or perhaps we could say whatever we want to say as long as we believe it to be true.

You can call my Church or its leaders whatever you want. I can and do answer any such claims with references to what we pray and believe, so it wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary just because it comes from Mormons this time. That's actually a good point to tie it into the OP: When nothing is hidden, then it's much easier to actually discuss what we do and why we do it that way, whereas in the Mormon case where things are hidden (because they're "too sacred" or whatever), you can't do that.

And you guys already do say whatever you want so long as you believe it to be true. That's what all your testimonies are. "I know that the church is true and Joseph Smith is a true prophet" or whatever is nothing but that, and yet nobody stops you from doing it even though it is ineffective, pointless, and often presented in lieu of actual answers to questions.
 
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Rescued One

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You are simple if you think that when you die, you do not continue to live as a spirit being. And if you are in a spirit prison, that Jesus visited when he went to the spirit world after his death, you would want to explore all possible reasons to get out of that prison as soon as possible, right?
It is proper ordinances administered by proper authority, with the power to bind and loose in heaven that can get them out of spirit prison, if they do what is necessary to be let out.

Jesus opened the way when he was in the spirit world for 3 days after his death, and one of the things he did was preach unto the spirits in spirit prison. Why do you think he preached unto them. It was to present them with the name of Jesus Christ their Redeemer and start the process of repentance so they could leave their prison and go into the paradise portion of the spirit world. Remember he told the thief on the cross he would be with him in paradise.

We know very little about the spirit world from the Bible, but we are told of 2 places. Paradise and spirit prison. Through JS and revelations from Jesus Christ we know a whole lot more.

A dead, rotting body may not have a calendar, but a living spirit may, I haven't seen their spirit abode, but I would not think that they are unaware of time passing.

You can make fun all you wish, but the truth is the truth and it will stand regardless of your knowledge or understanding.


Mormons believe a false religion. I'm not condemning you. Your life isn't over but it will be.

Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

After this life, it's too late to undo your consequence.
 
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mmksparbud

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Except that Jesus did not say sleep to the thief on the cross or about himself.

Where is paradise, where is the spirit prison? Let me know.


Jesus did not ascend to the heavenly Father that day--not until Sunday. Jesus does not lie.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The original Greek has no punctuation---nor chapters and verses for that matter.
It reads

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμήν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

and He said to him truly to you I say today with me you will be in - Paradise.

And He said to him. "Truly to you I say today, with me you will be in Paradise."

He was promising the thief that day, that someday, he would be with Him in Paradise.


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
ὅτι καὶ Χριστὸς ἅπαξ περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἔπαθε, δίκαιος ὑπὲρ ἀδίκων, ἵνα ὑμᾶς προσαγάγῃ τῷ Θεῷ, θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ, ζωοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι·
ἐν ᾧ καὶ τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασι πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν,
ἀπειθήσασί ποτε, ὅτε ἀπεξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ, εἰς ἣν ὀλίγαι, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί, διεσώθησαν δι’ ὕδατος.

because indeed Christ once for sins suffered (the) righteous for (the) unrighteous that us He might bring - to God having been out to death indeed in (the) flesh having been made alive however in the spirit in which also to the in prison spirits having gone He preached having disobeyed at one time when was waiting the - of God patience in (the) days of Noah being prepared (the) ark in which a few that is eight souls were saved through water

Now isn't thst fun to wade through! Many different interpretations, just a few here. Will have to break it up--to many characters.
 
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Rescued One

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I'm sorry but statements like the skeleton statement make me believe that you know very little about Mormonism, or you were being funny. Were you trying to be funny?

So tell people that the proxy baptism is only for that person's spirit which isn't even a soul.
 
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mmksparbud

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1 Peter 3:18
_ _ Confirmation of 1 Peter 3:17, by the glorious results of Christ’s suffering innocently.

_ _ For — “Because.” That is “better,” 1 Peter 3:17, means of which we are rendered more like to Christ in death and in life; for His death brought the best issue to Himself and to us [Bengel].

_ _ Christ — the Anointed Holy One of God; the Holy suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust.

_ _ also — as well as yourselves (1 Peter 3:17). Compare 1 Peter 2:21; there His suffering was brought forward as an example to us; here, as a proof of the blessedness of suffering for well-doing.

_ _ once — for all; never again to suffer. It is “better” for us also once to suffer with Christ, than for ever without Christ We now are suffering our “once”; it will soon be a thing of the past; a bright consolation to the tried.

_ _ for sins — as though He had Himself committed them. He exposed Himself to death by His “confession,” even as we are called on to “give an answer to him that asketh a reason of our hope.” This was “well-doing” in its highest manifestation. As He suffered, “The Just,” so we ought willingly to suffer, for righteousness’ sake (1 Peter 3:14; compare 1 Peter 3:12, 1 Peter 3:17).

_ _ that he might bring us to God — together with Himself in His ascension to the right hand of God (1 Peter 3:22). He brings us, “the unjust,” justified together with Him into heaven. So the result of Christ’s death is His drawing men to Him; spiritually now, in our having access into the Holiest, opened by Christ’s ascension; literally hereafter. “Bring us,” moreover, by the same steps of humiliation and exaltation through which He Himself passed. The several steps of Christ’s progress from lowliness to glory are trodden over again by His people in virtue of their oneness with Him (1 Peter 4:1-3). “To God,” is Greek dative (not the preposition and case), implying that God wishes it [Bengel].

_ _ put to death — the means of His bringing us to God.

_ _ in the flesh — that is, in respect to the life of flesh and blood.

_ _ quickened by the Spirit — The oldest manuscripts omit the Greek article. Translate with the preposition “in,” as the antithesis to the previous “in the flesh” requires, “IN spirit,” that is, in respect to His Spirit. “Put to death” in the former mode of life; “quickened” in the other. Not that His Spirit ever died and was quickened, or made alive again, but whereas He had lived after the manner of mortal men in the flesh, He began to live a spiritual “resurrection” (1 Peter 3:21) life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God. Two ways of explaining 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 3:19, are open to us: (1) “Quickened in Spirit,” that is, immediately on His release from the “flesh,” the energy of His undying spirit-life was “quickened” by God the Father, into new modes of action, namely, “in the Spirit He went down (as subsequently He went up to heaven, 1 Peter 3:22, the same Greek verb) and heralded [not salvation, as Alford, contrary to Scripture, which everywhere represents man’s state, whether saved or lost, after death irreversible. Nor is any mention made of the conversion of the spirits in prison. See on 1 Peter 3:20. Nor is the phrase here ‘preached the Gospel’ (evangelizo), but ‘heralded’ (ekeruxe) or ‘preached’; but simply made the announcement of His finished work; so the same Greek in Mark 1:45, ‘publish,’ confirming Enoch and Noah’s testimony, and thereby declaring the virtual condemnation of their unbelief, and the salvation of Noah and believers; a sample of the similar opposite effects of the same work on all unbelievers, and believers, respectively; also a consolation to those whom Peter addresses, in their sufferings at the hands of unbelievers; specially selected for the sake of ‘baptism,’ its ‘antitype’ (1 Peter 3:21), which, as a seal, marks believers as separated from the rest of the doomed world] to the spirits (His Spirit speaking to the spirits) in prison (in Hades or Sheol, awaiting the judgment, 2 Peter 2:4), which were of old disobedient when,” etc. (2) The strongest point in favor of (1) is the position of “sometime,” that is, of old, connected with “disobedient”; whereas if the preaching or announcing were a thing long past, we should expect “sometime,” or of old, to be joined to “went and preached.” But this transposition may express that their disobedience preceded His preaching. The Greek participle expresses the reason of His preaching,inasmuch as they were sometime disobedient” (compare 1 Peter 4:6). Also “went” seems to mean a personal going, as in 1 Peter 3:22, not merely in spirit. But see the answer below. The objections are “quickened” must refer to Christ’s body (compare 1 Peter 3:21, end), for as His Spirit never ceased to live, it cannot be said to be “quickened.” Compare John 5:21; Romans 8:11, and other passages, where “quicken” is used of the bodily resurrection. Also, not His Spirit, but His soul, went to Hades. His Spirit was commended by Him at death to His Father, and was thereupon “in Paradise.” The theory — (1) would thus require that His descent to the spirits in prison should be after His resurrection! Compare Ephesians 4:9, Ephesians 4:10, which makes the descent precede the ascent. Also Scripture elsewhere is silent about such a heralding, though possibly Christ’s death had immediate effects on the state of both the godly and the ungodly in Hades: the souls of the godly heretofore in comparative confinement, perhaps then having been, as some Fathers thought, translated to God’s immediate and heavenly presence; but this cannot be proved from Scripture. Compare however, John 3:13; Colossians 1:18. Prison is always used in a bad sense in Scripture. “Paradise” and “Abraham’s bosom,” the abode of good spirits in Old Testament times, are separated by a wide gulf from Hell or Hades, and cannot be called “prison.” Compare 2 Corinthians 12:2, 2 Corinthians 12:4, where “paradise” and the “third heaven” correspond. Also, why should the antediluvian unbelievers in particular be selected as the objects of His preaching in Hades? Therefore explain: “Quickened in spirit, in which (as distinguished from in person; the words “in which,” that is, in spirit, expressly obviating the objection that “went” implies a personal going) He went (in the person of Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” 2 Peter 2:5 : Alford’s own Note, Ephesians 2:17, is the best reply to his argument from “went” that a local going to Hades in person is meant. As “He CAME and preached peace” by His Spirit in the apostles and ministers after His death and ascension: so before His incarnation He preached in Spirit through Noah to the antediluvians, John 14:18, John 14:28; Acts 26:23. “Christ should show,” literally, “announce light to the Gentiles”) and preached unto the spirits in prison, that is, the antediluvians, whose bodies indeed seemed free, but their spirits were in prison, shut up in the earth as one great condemned cell (exactly parallel to Isaiah 24:22, Isaiah 24:23 “upon the earth ... they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison,” etc. [just as the fallen angels are judicially regarded as “in chains of darkness,” though for a time now at large on the earth, 1 Peter 2:4], where 1 Peter 3:18 has a plain allusion to the flood, “the windows from on high are open,” compare Genesis 7:11); from this prison the only way of escape was that preached by Christ in Noah. Christ, who in our times came in the flesh, in the days of Noah preached in Spirit by Noah to the spirits then in prison (Isaiah 61:1, end, “the Spirit of the Lord God hath sent me to proclaim the opening of the prison to them that are bound”). So in 1 Peter 1:11, “the Spirit of Christ” is said to have testified in the prophets. As Christ suffered even to death by enemies, and was afterwards quickened in virtue of His “Spirit” (or divine nature, Romans 1:3, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:45), which henceforth acted in its full energy, the first result of which was the raising of His body (1 Peter 3:21, end) from the prison of the grave and His soul from Hades; so the same Spirit of Christ enabled Noah, amidst reproach and trials, to preach to the disobedient spirits fast bound in wrath. That Spirit in you can enable you also to suffer patiently now, looking for the resurrection deliverance.
 
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Rescued One

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Except that Jesus did not say sleep to the thief on the cross or about himself.

Where is paradise, where is the spirit prison? Let me know.

Why do you ask? You don't know where spirit prison and paradise are.
 
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mmksparbud

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_c-hen.gif


1 Peter 3:18-20
_ _ Here, I. The example of Christ is proposed as an argument for patience under sufferings, the strength of which will be discerned if we consider the several points contained in the words; observe therefore, 1. Jesus Christ himself was not exempted from sufferings in this life, though he had no guilt of his own and could have declined all suffering if he had pleased. 2. The reason or meritorious cause of Christ's suffering was the sins of men: Christ suffered for sins. The sufferings of Christ were a true and proper punishment; this punishment was suffered to expiate and to make an atonement for sin; and it extends to all sin. 3. In the case of our Lord's suffering, it was the just that suffered for the unjust; he substituted himself in our room and stead, and bore our iniquities. He that knew no sin suffered instead of those that knew no righteousness. 4. The merit and perfection of Christ's sacrifice were such that for him to suffer once was enough. The legal sacrifices were repeated from day to day, and from year to year; but the sacrifice of Christ, once offered, purgeth away sin, Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 9:28; Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:12, Hebrews 10:14. 5. The blessed end or design of our Lord's sufferings was to bring us to God, to reconcile us to God, to give us access to the Father, to render us and our services acceptable, and to bring us to eternal glory, Ephesians 2:13, Ephesians 2:18; Ephesians 3:12; Hebrews 10:21, Hebrews 10:22. 6. The issue and event of Christ's suffering, as to himself, were these, he was put to death in his human nature, but he was quickened and raised again by the Spirit. Now, if Christ was not exempted from sufferings, why should Christians expect it? If he suffered, to expiate sins, why should not we be content when our sufferings are only for trial and correction, but not for expiation? If he, though perfectly just, why should not we, who are all criminals? If he once suffered, and then entered into glory, shall not we be patient under trouble, since it will be but a little time and we shall follow him to glory? If he suffered, to bring us to God, shall not we submit to difficulties, since they are of so much use to quicken us in our return to God, and in the performance of our duty to him?


_ _ II. The apostle passes from the example of Christ to that of the old world, and sets before the Jews, to whom he wrote, the different event of those who believed and obeyed Christ preaching by Noah, from those that continued disobedient and unbelieving, intimating to the Jews that they were under a like sentence. God would not wait much longer upon them. They had now an offer of mercy; those that accepted of it should be saved, but those who rejected Christ and the gospel should be as certainly destroyed as ever the disobedient in the times of Noah were.

_ _ 1. For the explication of this we may notice, (1.) The preacher — Christ Jesus, who has interested himself in the affairs of the church and of the world ever since he was first promised to Adam, Genesis 3:15. He went, not by a local motion, but by special operation, as God is frequently said to move, Genesis 11:5; Hosea 5:15; Micah 1:3. He went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2 Peter 2:5. (2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them, as the vulgar Latin translation and the popish expositors pretend. (3.) The sin of these people: They were disobedient, that is, rebellious, unpersuadable, and unbelieving, as the word signifies; this their sin is aggravated from the patience and long-suffering of God (which once waited upon them for 120 years together), while Noah was preparing the ark, and by that, as well as by his preaching, giving them fair warning of what was coming upon them. (4.) The event of all: Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Matthew 5:25; 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:5); but Noah and his family, who believed and were obedient, were saved in the ark.


_ _ 2. From the whole we learn that, (1.) God takes exact notice of all the means and advantages that people in all ages have had for the salvation of their souls; it is put to the account of the old world that Christ offered them his help, sent his Spirit, gave them fair warning by Noah, and waited a long time for their amendment. (2.) Though the patience of God wait long upon sinners, yet it will expire at last; it is beneath the majesty of the great God always to wait upon man in vain. (3.) The spirits of disobedient sinners, as soon as they are out of their bodies, are committed to the prison of hell, whence there is no redemption. (4.) The way of the most is neither the best, the wisest, nor the safest way to follow: better to follow the eight in the ark than the eight millions drowned by the flood and damned to hell.

aren't you glad you asked?!
 
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He is the way

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Is the Bible anti-family:

(New Testament | Luke 14:26 - 27)

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
 
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He is the way

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You can call my Church or its leaders whatever you want. I can and do answer any such claims with references to what we pray and believe, so it wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary just because it comes from Mormons this time. That's actually a good point to tie it into the OP: When nothing is hidden, then it's much easier to actually discuss what we do and why we do it that way, whereas in the Mormon case where things are hidden (because they're "too sacred" or whatever), you can't do that.

And you guys already do say whatever you want so long as you believe it to be true. That's what all your testimonies are. "I know that the church is true and Joseph Smith is a true prophet" or whatever is nothing but that, and yet nobody stops you from doing it even though it is ineffective, pointless, and often presented in lieu of actual answers to questions.
So I believe you go to a false church where your leaders have no authority and they teach false doctrine full of deception to their congregation.
 
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dzheremi

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So I believe you go to a false church where your leaders have no authority and they teach false doctrine full of deception to their congregation.

So what? Not only does that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but there's not even any substance to it as a statement anyway. Who cares if you disagree? It's not like Orthodox Christianity and Mormonism are supposed to agree in the first place, because we worship Christ with His good Father and the Holy Spirit in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, whereas you guys do not, so you're wrong.

And given that you're wrong on this very basic matter that separates Christianity from non-Christianity, it really doesn't matter what Mormons believe about Christian churches or what they believe in instead, but to correct their errors for the sake of those who might otherwise be deceived into believing that Mormonism is a type of Christianity when it very much is not. Heretics and blasphemers have no say in anything to begin with. The Church kicked the likes of the proto-Mormons out centuries ago (Montanus, Arius, etc.), and rightly so, and if Joseph Smith were still around and were brought before any Orthodox bishops worth their salt, he would be anathematized too. The message was then and is now (and will be tomorrow, and after that, etc.): Worship the Holy Trinity or get out, and don't come back until you actually profess the Christian religion.

Mormons and other God-deniers just don't like the standard, and so they complain. Again, I don't care. I didn't tell you all to follow a false prophet into heresy and blasphemy -- you all did that. You want someone to complain to, try your leaders who are feeding you spiritual poison instead of true food. They're the ones who should be getting reproached on that account anyway, if you want to do something useful.
 
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