Predestination

ICONO'CLAST

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akmom,


. [ I would have abandoned my “Calvinist” church long ago if it wasn’t for the sincerity and authenticity I see as God working in their lives. This has been my experience with the Calvinists I know in person. (Perhaps they only become arrogant and condescending online.]

Maybe the "arrogant and condescending" that you suggest is nothing more than a reaction to your coy and sanctimonious attacks upon Calvinists, and Calvinist pastors.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"BNR32FAN,

[Predestination is true but God chooses those who have chosen to follow Him of their own free will. We are all predestined because God foresaw everyone who would be victorious and who would fail before creation. ]

Psalm 14 says no one seeks God, no not one....
Your theory is without any biblical support.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Actually under Calvinism a person is elect to eternal life prior to the person being born, which is prior to faith. And since the person is born elect to eternal life, he is born saved under Calvinism.

Under Calvinism salvation is not by faith. It's by a pre-birth election. As such it's Calvinists who are attacking salvation by faith alone, seeing as under Calvinism faith is not a precondition for salvation.
strawman
 
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Loren T.

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"Loren T.

[We are "elected" when we believe.]

This post shows the world you have no clue on this topic. You are in way over your head.
Until you want to learn refrain from such silly posting which only embarrasses you.
Translation: I don't like your answer, so I'm going to make fun of you.
 
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Loren T.

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Again...you do not understand the terms or the teaching...that men resist has nothing to do with the teaching.....
Actually, I have discussed this extensively with Calvinists, but your right, no matter how many times they explain it makes no sense, because it's self contradicting. You are just doing what they all do, saying if you don't believe it, you're just too dumb to understand it. Yawn.
 
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Loren T.

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yes...I can tell by your ignorant posts . If you read the confession of faith which you despise here...you would not have posted so foolishly about effectual calling as you have posted here.
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
I'm quite aware of the confession, thanks. It's not infallible.
 
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John tower

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Predestination is a doctrine embraced by Calvinists that accepts both the sovereignty of God in election and the choice of the human will in accepting God free gift of salvation. For me predestination makes sense because our salvation is based on God's divine attributes, he predestined us to be the righteousness of Christ before the foundation of the world because there was never a plan b. The confusions comes in when Calvinists claim God wrote the book of life with all the names of those who would be saved. Paul.does say the God predestined him personally for salvation and it's a difficult concept to grasp if your not careful. I've never worried about something like the mystery of God plans and purposes and whether or not God knew the name of everyone who would be saved, that is just beyond me.

I accept that God does foreknow the elect but I don't bother trying to sort that out formally. When you run into something like this always go back to.the simplicity of the gospel and justification by grace through faith. I've always thought it was better to emphasis what we are predestined to, the focus should always be on the perfection of Christ and the sufficient of grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark
( 7 ) : ” THE GREATEST FALSE TEACHING OF THE CHURCHES ! “
August 17, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment


The standard teaching in the present day churches is that yes, we cannot save ourselves : That the only thing we have is our own free will, to either choose or reject God . Well does the Bible teach that we choose God of our own free will ? JOHN 1 ( 13) : ” Which were born NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN , BUT OF GOD ! ” ROMANS 9 ( 16 ) : ” So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH , BUT OF GOD . ” JAMES 1 ( 18 ) : ” OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word . ” So according to the Bible : It is NOT OF MAN’S WILL , BUT ONLY GOD’S WILL ! EPHESIANS 1 ( 11 ) : ” Him who works ALL THINGS AFTER the counsel of HIS OWN WILL . ” : ALL THINGS AFTER HIS WILL LEAVES NO PLACE FOR OUR OWN SUPPOSED FREE WILL ! So this teaching that man has his own free will is completely contrary to scripture : It falsely exalts man with power that he in truth does not have. Well you might ask : Why did not God not give man his own free will ? HEBREWS 12 ( 2 ) : ” Looking unto JESUS , THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! ” : So CHRIST IS THE SOLE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! THERE IS NO ONE BETTER QUALIFIED THAN CHRIST TO TRAIN US : CERTAINLY NOT OURSELVES : SO THIS IS PRECISELY WHY CHRIST DID NOT GIVE US A FREE WILL , BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST CAN DO A PROPER JOB ! Only CHRIST knows what things we need to learn , we do not know these things : so what in the world would we do with a free will if such a thing existed : Answer : We wouldn’t have a clue , which is of course why CHRIST did not give us a free will : WE ARE JUST CLAY IN THE GREAT POTTERS HANDS , and thank God , no one can do a better job then God! PHILIPPIANS 1 ( 6 ) : ” He which began a good work in you will continue it unto the day of CHRIST . ” : He began it , not us , and he will finish it not us ! PHILIPPIANS 2 ( 13 ) : ” For IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU , BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ” : GOD NOT US ! This is solely the work of God : to say that man has any part in it is falsely exalting man : usurping the work of God and falsely placing it in man’s hands : an obvious blasphemy against God , and it is widely taught in the mainstream churches, and needs to be exposed for the blasphemy that it is ! EPHESIANS 2 ( 8-10 ) : 8 : ” For by grace are you saved through faith, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift OF GOD ” 9 : ” NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST ” 10 : ” For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP ” Nothing of ourselves! ROMANS 13 ( 1 ) : ” THERE IS NO POWER BUT GOD ! ” No room here for man to have his own power of free will : No power but God. PSALMS 65 ( 4 ) : ” Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST AND CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE . ” : God chooses his elect , and God causes them to come to him by his call, not us by our own supposed free will : totally unscriptural ! Choosing God would of course be a good thing to do, and if we really did choose God of our own free will we would be at least partially righteous, because choosing God would be a good thing, but such is definitely not the case as the Bible clearly says there are non righteous because we do not have the power to come to God of our own will as CHRIST clearly says in JOHN 6 ( 44 ) : ” No man can come to me unless THE FATHER DRAWS HIM . ” : ONLY THE FATHER CAN DRAW HIM : HE CANNOT COME OF HIS OWN POWER ! STOP BLASPHEMING AND SAYING THAT MAN SAVES HIMSELF BY HIS OWN FREE WILL WORK OF CHOOSING GOD : IT IS TOTALLY AND SOLELY THE WORK OF GOD !


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aiki

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No, it’s akin to chatting about the structural integrity of the roof in the case of a fire, while a wildfire is approaching. Who am I to manufacture urgency?

Why would you have to manufacture urgency? Doesn't the approaching eternal damnation of the lost produce urgency quite naturally? It does for me...

God will convict their hearts in his own time, and it’s not my job to wrestle anyone to their knees. I learned that because it didn’t work. Have you led people to Christ this way? Was it in a ministry setting? Perhaps people who are listening to a sermon from you are more receptive to that kind of aggressive approach, considering they are already there and anticipating gospel instruction. In our daily lives, I have only seen that approach drive people away. But a genuine conversation can go so much further.

I follow the advice Paul gave Timothy concerning being a "servant of the Lord." I recognize that repentance is a work of God and that, ultimately, He saves the lost. But He uses us often to do so. Through us He communicates the desperate state of the unrepentant wicked to them. Does this mean I'm shoving the threat of Hell down an unbelievers throat? No. But I ought not to be fudging on the hard truths of the Gospel for the sake of being accepted by the lost, either. Jesus was a "Rock of offense" for a reason. He warned his disciples of a bad reception when they lived as salt and light to a dark and dying world. We ought to expect the same.

I have always spoken of sin and God's wrath when I've shared the Gospel. Not exclusively, of course. Some God had prepared to receive these truths, others rejected them. I am calm and as gentle as I can be in speaking of the sinner's terrible need of a Saviour but never at the expense of being plain and direct. How about you?

Thanks for that. I guess if you can’t help, you can just insist a person stop being confused. All fixed!

I gave you two links to websites that will help you thoroughly understand soteriological issues from a non-Calvinist perspective. I haven't simply insisted that you stop being confused. Is there more I can do for you?
 
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sdowney717

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"BNR32FAN,

[Predestination is true but God chooses those who have chosen to follow Him of their own free will. We are all predestined because God foresaw everyone who would be victorious and who would fail before creation. ]

Psalm 14 says no one seeks God, no not one....
Your theory is without any biblical support.
Only in an alternate reality, actually a fake reality would they seek God in a future time, and then God chooses them way back in the past who had never been born, because yes, no one seeks for God when they are unregenerate. That is just way to weird and complicated. I think that is called the time tunnel argument.

And it zeros out by grace you are saved, makes scripture to be nonsense.
 
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John tower

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Show me where I said that "calvinist denies we receive Christ as Lord". Or are you bearing false witness against me?

Didn't ignore it. Just didn't find it relevant.

That applies to you as well, right?

As for John 6:43-45 it makes no mention of being born of God. And so doesn't speak to the subject of the order of faith and being born of God. Therefore not relevant. However as it does say, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.", realize that's teaching synergism, contrary to the monergism of Calvinism. Learning involves cooperation, as opposed to the anti-free will fatalistic puppet theology of Calvinism.
John 15(16), Eph 1(4), Phil 2(13)
 
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Loren T.

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( 7 ) : ” THE GREATEST FALSE TEACHING OF THE CHURCHES ! “
August 17, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment


The standard teaching in the present day churches is that yes, we cannot save ourselves : That the only thing we have is our own free will, to either choose or reject God . Well does the Bible teach that we choose God of our own free will ? JOHN 1 ( 13) : ” Which were born NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN , BUT OF GOD ! ” ROMANS 9 ( 16 ) : ” So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH , BUT OF GOD . ” JAMES 1 ( 18 ) : ” OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word . ” So according to the Bible : It is NOT OF MAN’S WILL , BUT ONLY GOD’S WILL ! EPHESIANS 1 ( 11 ) : ” Him who works ALL THINGS AFTER the counsel of HIS OWN WILL . ” : ALL THINGS AFTER HIS WILL LEAVES NO PLACE FOR OUR OWN SUPPOSED FREE WILL ! So this teaching that man has his own free will is completely contrary to scripture : It falsely exalts man with power that he in truth does not have. Well you might ask : Why did not God not give man his own free will ? HEBREWS 12 ( 2 ) : ” Looking unto JESUS , THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! ” : So CHRIST IS THE SOLE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! THERE IS NO ONE BETTER QUALIFIED THAN CHRIST TO TRAIN US : CERTAINLY NOT OURSELVES : SO THIS IS PRECISELY WHY CHRIST DID NOT GIVE US A FREE WILL , BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST CAN DO A PROPER JOB ! Only CHRIST knows what things we need to learn , we do not know these things : so what in the world would we do with a free will if such a thing existed : Answer : We wouldn’t have a clue , which is of course why CHRIST did not give us a free will : WE ARE JUST CLAY IN THE GREAT POTTERS HANDS , and thank God , no one can do a better job then God! PHILIPPIANS 1 ( 6 ) : ” He which began a good work in you will continue it unto the day of CHRIST . ” : He began it , not us , and he will finish it not us ! PHILIPPIANS 2 ( 13 ) : ” For IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU , BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ” : GOD NOT US ! This is solely the work of God : to say that man has any part in it is falsely exalting man : usurping the work of God and falsely placing it in man’s hands : an obvious blasphemy against God , and it is widely taught in the mainstream churches, and needs to be exposed for the blasphemy that it is ! EPHESIANS 2 ( 8-10 ) : 8 : ” For by grace are you saved through faith, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift OF GOD ” 9 : ” NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST ” 10 : ” For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP ” Nothing of ourselves! ROMANS 13 ( 1 ) : ” THERE IS NO POWER BUT GOD ! ” No room here for man to have his own power of free will : No power but God. PSALMS 65 ( 4 ) : ” Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST AND CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE . ” : God chooses his elect , and God causes them to come to him by his call, not us by our own supposed free will : totally unscriptural ! Choosing God would of course be a good thing to do, and if we really did choose God of our own free will we would be at least partially righteous, because choosing God would be a good thing, but such is definitely not the case as the Bible clearly says there are non righteous because we do not have the power to come to God of our own will as CHRIST clearly says in JOHN 6 ( 44 ) : ” No man can come to me unless THE FATHER DRAWS HIM . ” : ONLY THE FATHER CAN DRAW HIM : HE CANNOT COME OF HIS OWN POWER ! STOP BLASPHEMING AND SAYING THAT MAN SAVES HIMSELF BY HIS OWN FREE WILL WORK OF CHOOSING GOD : IT IS TOTALLY AND SOLELY THE WORK OF GOD !


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Screaming doesn't make you any more right. Kinda reminds me of the calvinist debating Flowers screaming "God causes men to commit adultery!" Ok, then, everything is predestined. Nothing we do matters. Got it. Might as well sit on the couch and eat ho hos for the rest of your life.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No, John 3:3 doesn't teach that. Doesn't even use the word "faith". But if you were to study the scriptures more thoroughly on the subject of the order of faith and being born of God, you would discover verses like:

John 1:12,13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

Notice that a person doesn't even get the right to become born of God until they believe. Therefore faith precedes being born of God.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

If a person is a son of God through faith, therefore faith must precede becoming a son of God.

And just to note a significant issue with Calvinism regarding the gospel, Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. The Bible teaches, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" But rather they believe in salvation by pre-birth election. That is an elect person is born destined for heaven and thus is already saved when they are born. Faith is relegated to a minor role of merely revealing one's elect status.

Part of Calvin’s idea is correct because the book of life was written before creation because God had foreseen who will be victorious and who will not. He foresaw their choices they made of their own free will. God did not choose who will be victorious and who will burn.
 
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akmom

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Part of Calvin’s idea is correct because the book of life was written before creation because God had foreseen who will be victorious and who will not. He foresaw their choices they made of their own free will. God did not choose who will be victorious and who will burn.

Revelations 3:5 refers to blotting names out of the Book of Life. Does that not suggest we are all there, and then some are blotted out?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Revelations 3:5 refers to blotting names out of the Book of Life. Does that not suggest we are all there, and then some are blotted out?

No only those who are victorious are written in the book of life. The only way someone can be blotted out is if God made a mistake. The names were written in the book of life before creation so God has already foreseen everyone who will be victorious.
 
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aiki

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Revelations 3:5 refers to blotting names out of the Book of Life. Does that not suggest we are all there, and then some are blotted out?

I was discussing this verse recently here on CF. I pointed out then, as I do now, that Revelation 3:5 does not threaten blotting out but is a promise to those who overcome - born again believers - that they will never be blotted out from the Book of Life. Isn't it sad how some take what is meant to encourage and make it into a terrible threat?
 
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mark kennedy

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( 7 ) : ” THE GREATEST FALSE TEACHING OF THE CHURCHES ! “
August 17, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment


The standard teaching in the present day churches is that yes, we cannot save ourselves : That the only thing we have is our own free will, to either choose or reject God . Well does the Bible teach that we choose God of our own free will ? JOHN 1 ( 13) : ” Which were born NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN , BUT OF GOD ! ” ROMANS 9 ( 16 ) : ” So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH , BUT OF GOD . ” JAMES 1 ( 18 ) : ” OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word . ” So according to the Bible : It is NOT OF MAN’S WILL , BUT ONLY GOD’S WILL ! EPHESIANS 1 ( 11 ) : ” Him who works ALL THINGS AFTER the counsel of HIS OWN WILL . ” : ALL THINGS AFTER HIS WILL LEAVES NO PLACE FOR OUR OWN SUPPOSED FREE WILL ! So this teaching that man has his own free will is completely contrary to scripture : It falsely exalts man with power that he in truth does not have. Well you might ask : Why did not God not give man his own free will ? HEBREWS 12 ( 2 ) : ” Looking unto JESUS , THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! ” : So CHRIST IS THE SOLE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! THERE IS NO ONE BETTER QUALIFIED THAN CHRIST TO TRAIN US : CERTAINLY NOT OURSELVES : SO THIS IS PRECISELY WHY CHRIST DID NOT GIVE US A FREE WILL , BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST CAN DO A PROPER JOB ! Only CHRIST knows what things we need to learn , we do not know these things : so what in the world would we do with a free will if such a thing existed : Answer : We wouldn’t have a clue , which is of course why CHRIST did not give us a free will : WE ARE JUST CLAY IN THE GREAT POTTERS HANDS , and thank God , no one can do a better job then God! PHILIPPIANS 1 ( 6 ) : ” He which began a good work in you will continue it unto the day of CHRIST . ” : He began it , not us , and he will finish it not us ! PHILIPPIANS 2 ( 13 ) : ” For IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU , BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ” : GOD NOT US ! This is solely the work of God : to say that man has any part in it is falsely exalting man : usurping the work of God and falsely placing it in man’s hands : an obvious blasphemy against God , and it is widely taught in the mainstream churches, and needs to be exposed for the blasphemy that it is ! EPHESIANS 2 ( 8-10 ) : 8 : ” For by grace are you saved through faith, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift OF GOD ” 9 : ” NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST ” 10 : ” For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP ” Nothing of ourselves! ROMANS 13 ( 1 ) : ” THERE IS NO POWER BUT GOD ! ” No room here for man to have his own power of free will : No power but God. PSALMS 65 ( 4 ) : ” Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST AND CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE . ” : God chooses his elect , and God causes them to come to him by his call, not us by our own supposed free will : totally unscriptural ! Choosing God would of course be a good thing to do, and if we really did choose God of our own free will we would be at least partially righteous, because choosing God would be a good thing, but such is definitely not the case as the Bible clearly says there are non righteous because we do not have the power to come to God of our own will as CHRIST clearly says in JOHN 6 ( 44 ) : ” No man can come to me unless THE FATHER DRAWS HIM . ” : ONLY THE FATHER CAN DRAW HIM : HE CANNOT COME OF HIS OWN POWER ! STOP BLASPHEMING AND SAYING THAT MAN SAVES HIMSELF BY HIS OWN FREE WILL WORK OF CHOOSING GOD : IT IS TOTALLY AND SOLELY THE WORK OF GOD !


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Yes, salvation is by grace alone and Christ alone. Just bear in mind what we are saved for. Things like obedience, holiness, works of righteousness, the fruit of the Holy Spirit, are not required for salvation, they are salvation.
 
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bcbsr

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Part of Calvin’s idea is correct because the book of life was written before creation because God had foreseen who will be victorious and who will not. He foresaw their choices they made of their own free will. God did not choose who will be victorious and who will burn.
I can agree with God's foreknowledge of our choice to believe. But that's not Calvinism. Calvinism explicitly states that God's choice is NOT based on his foreknowledge of our choice to believe.
 
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sdowney717

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Actually under Calvinism a person is elect to eternal life prior to the person being born, which is prior to faith. And since the person is born elect to eternal life, he is born saved under Calvinism.

Under Calvinism salvation is not by faith. It's by a pre-birth election. As such it's Calvinists who are attacking salvation by faith alone, seeing as under Calvinism faith is not a precondition for salvation.
In Calvinism, they are not born saved, it is just they are elected to be saved. faith is still a requirement, as is being born of God. The scriptures clearly says, all that the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ. Which means those not given, will not come to Christ and be saved.
God is the chooser, not the will of the man. God does not choose everyone or everyone would come to Christ and be saved.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

God does not personally show mercy to everyone to be granted to come to Christ.

People who do not believe in Christ, God has not granted them to come to Christ. I speak in absolute terms here, meaning they could be granted later, but unless God grants them to come to Christ, they will not believe. Jesus is VERY CLEAR, only by severe scripture twisting can these truths be denied.

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The SPIRIT gives life, not the flesh, God is Spirit, He determines who is given life, not the man. As Romans 9 so says, not the will of the flesh, the man. We are born of God according to the will of God and also that is why a man is born again prior to faith or being born again would be determined by the will of the man, the flesh.
 
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