Predestination

Loren T.

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Paul explains that God has made individual choice among the chosen nation...in other words, not every physical Israelite is found in the promised seed. and to make matters worse...he is going to show that God finds some of the elect seed among the previously non covenanted gentiles...see the following;

Yeah and Paul goe onto explain why not all are in the promised seed...in romans 10

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Not because God was arbitrarily choosing some and not others, but because some accepted the good news and some didn't. We are "elected" when we believe. It's not unconditional. Which is why I say the Calvinist have it exactly backwards, they mis use Romans to claim God's mercy is only for a few select people, when Paul means it to say that God's mercy is for whosoever will.

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]
 
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Loren T.

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"19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?"
The answer to this question that is put forward by the mystery objector, is "everyone." Everyone resists God's will! I don't know how you can miss the fact that talking back to God, as this objector does, is resisting his will. This is the weirdness of Calvinism. "You can't resist God will, so don't talk back to him." Uh, ok? It's always a theology that contradicts itself.
 
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Loren T.

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Loren T.,

[And who cares about the untold masses to whom salvation is never offered, Huh?]
We are to go to all men...but not everyone is going to be saved. Many have lived and died and died in their sins who never heard the gospel.
Why? If your theology is correct, God will irresistibly save whoever he wants and damn whoever he wants. Giving them the gospel is irrelevant if this is true.
 
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Jipsah

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Wrong! Guess again.

Who is the "we". The "we" is believers in Christ. God predestines a category - believers in Christ. Before the world began He decided that those who end up in that category would be predestined for the inheritance. Once a person enters that category through faith he is predestined.
"Just do a little sidestep..." So those who are PREdestined are really POSTdestined, after they decide to become saved. Then God comes in and predestines them after the fact, in a kind of retroactive predestination. But God did predestine that the saved, as a group, would be, well, saved. He Just didn't make any determination of who might end up being a member of that group yet, because that would have been actual predestination, of individuals, and that just isn't allowed.
 
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Jipsah

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Loren T.,
[And who cares about the untold masses to whom salvation is never offered, Huh?]
We are to go to all men...but not everyone is going to be saved. Many have lived and died and died in their sins who never heard the gospel.
According to Free Willies, it's tough luck for those folks. You can't allow God to just save folks willy nilly, no telling who'd end up amongst the blessed then.
 
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akmom

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"Just do a little sidestep..." So those who are PREdestined are really POSTdestined, after they decide to become saved. Then God comes in and predestines them after the fact, in a kind of retroactive predestination. But God did predestine that the saved, as a group, would be, well, saved. He Just didn't make any determination of who might end up being a member of that group yet, because that would have been actual predestination, of individuals, and that just isn't allowed.

I think this post was intended sarcastically (my apologies if I misjudged it), but it makes sense. When I read Romans, just reading it as is without any external guidance, it sounds like mankind is predestined as a group. Like, God didn’t individually predestine people, but rather had salvation in mind from the beginning (versus offering it as an afterthought). And then, those who will, accept it. And if you accept it, it’s yours, right? Those that confess and believe are saved through Christ. Is that not what Paul is saying?

I am trying to reconcile that teaching with the (Calvinist) idea that we are individually called by God and then irresistibly consumed by his grace... a sentiment I cannot relate to. So why? Why do some have this experience but not me? I know many Christians who describe God’s love and presence in their lives as a tangible thing.
 
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akmom

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Your spiritual egalitarianism in your campfire conversations might have made you feel good, but it was akin to chatting to your neighbors in the doorway of their house about the weather while the roof above them was on fire and about to cave in on them.

No, it’s akin to chatting about the structural integrity of the roof in the case of a fire, while a wildfire is approaching. Who am I to manufacture urgency? God will convict their hearts in his own time, and it’s not my job to wrestle anyone to their knees. I learned that because it didn’t work. Have you led people to Christ this way? Was it in a ministry setting? Perhaps people who are listening to a sermon from you are more receptive to that kind of aggressive approach, considering they are already there and anticipating gospel instruction. In our daily lives, I have only seen that approach drive people away. But a genuine conversation can go so much further.


Did your sharing of Jesus' love include his greatest act of love to you which was to save you from the eternal penalty of your sin?

Of course.
 
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sdowney717

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I think this post was intended sarcastically (my apologies if I misjudged it), but it makes sense. When I read Romans, just reading it as is without any external guidance, it sounds like mankind is predestined as a group. Like, God didn’t individually predestine people, but rather had salvation in mind from the beginning (versus offering it as an afterthought). And then, those who will, accept it. And if you accept it, it’s yours, right? Those that confess and believe are saved through Christ. Is that not what Paul is saying?

I am trying to reconcile that teaching with the (Calvinist) idea that we are individually called by God and then irresistibly consumed by his grace... a sentiment I cannot relate to. So why? Why do some have this experience but not me? I know many Christians who describe God’s love and presence in their lives as a tangible thing.
Simply only predestined believers as a category?
What about Romans, Romans is not the only book that teaches a predestination.

Romans 8, when you read this you do not feel a personal calling? Just a group thing?

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

If God only foreknows believers as a group, then God knows nothing about the future. Everything is in the control of the will of the man.
 
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Loren T.

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If God only foreknows believers as a group, then God knows nothing about the future. Everything is in the control of the will of the man.

This makes no sense to me. God knowing the future and God foreordaining everything about that future are two different things. You seem to be trying to combine them. I think we would all agree that there is a great deal that we don't control. We don't control where and when we are born, how many toes we have and so on. That doesn't equate to not having freedom to choose between the limited choices that life brings along. Did God foreordain what shirt you would wear today or how many times you would blink? Or does he just know those things because he is all knowing?
Same with salvation, does God knowing who will accept mean he has to give them no other choice? I don't think so.
 
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bcbsr

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"Just do a little sidestep..." So those who are PREdestined are really POSTdestined, after they decide to become saved. Then God comes in and predestines them after the fact, in a kind of retroactive predestination. But God did predestine that the saved, as a group, would be, well, saved. He Just didn't make any determination of who might end up being a member of that group yet, because that would have been actual predestination, of individuals, and that just isn't allowed.
You misunderstand what Predestination refers to. You're saying that the final destination is justification, but in fact that's only the beginning and not the final destination for believers. Eph 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons" BELIEVERS are predestined to be sons, which contrary to Calvinism comes after faith, and therefore after justification, according to Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" Another destiny is mentioned in Eph 1:11,12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory." Who is this destiny given to? Not to unbelieving babies, as Calvinists would have it, but rather to "we, who were the first to hope in Christ"

Calvinistic soteriology is contrary to Biblical soteriology. Since according to Calvinism election to eternal life occurs prior to the person's birth, prior to the person coming to faith, therefore under Calvinism a person is born saved and eternal security even though they have yet to come to faith in Christ. Is it possible for an elect person to go the hell? No. Therefore the elect are born saved under Calvinism.

That means that gospel according to Calvinism is not salvation by faith, but rather it's salvation by election. Faith is relegated to a minor role of revealing the elect. And among the multitude of scripture that such a view contradicts, there also Eph 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But under Calvinism the elect were never objects of wrath.
 
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bcbsr

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Those who attack 'Calvinism' attack the doctrine of 'by grace alone through faith alone',

Actually under Calvinism a person is elect to eternal life prior to the person being born, which is prior to faith. And since the person is born elect to eternal life, he is born saved under Calvinism.

Under Calvinism salvation is not by faith. It's by a pre-birth election. As such it's Calvinists who are attacking salvation by faith alone, seeing as under Calvinism faith is not a precondition for salvation.
 
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akmom

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Well, then, use your confusion as motivation to understand the doctrines of salvation better. What purpose does it serve to remain in your present confusion?

Thanks for that. I guess if you can’t help, you can just insist a person stop being confused. All fixed!

We can when you ask those questions, right now you seem to be whining about those evil Calvinists.
...
you have not challenged anything...your confused state of mind , does not constitute a challenge.

Well I’m asking now, Iconoclast. I’m not characterizing Calvinists as evil, though there are many posters and it can be hard to remember who said what. I would have abandoned my “Calvinist” church long ago if it wasn’t for the sincerity and authenticity I see as God working in their lives. This has been my experience with the Calvinists I know in person. (Perhaps they only become arrogant and condescending online.)

I’m confused by the doctrine of predestination. I’m also confused by Escher’s staircase. I feel like I’m going in circles with both of them. Perhaps I am missing something, or perhaps Calvinism is just an illusion of doctrine. I really don’t know.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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One of the problems with irresistible grace is that most of us know full well that we resist God both before and after salvation.
Again...you do not understand the terms or the teaching...that men resist has nothing to do with the teaching.....
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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The what, by who? Sorry, don't follow man made doctrines.
yes...I can tell by your ignorant posts . If you read the confession of faith which you despise here...you would not have posted so foolishly about effectual calling as you have posted here.
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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akmom,

{I’m confused by the doctrine of predestination}

Okay....what is confusing here;
.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

Predestination is true but God chooses those who have chosen to follow Him of their own free will. We are all predestined because God foresaw everyone who would be victorious and who would fail before creation. The book of life was written before creation and everyone who will be victorious is written in the book of life. Just because God foresaw our choice doesn’t mean that He made the choice for us. Now for those who say God only chooses His elect group I would say then please explain why Jesus said this to His apostles if they were undoubtedly chosen by God.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-8.

Why must they remain in Christ if they do not have free will they cannot lose their salvation if they are God’s elect. How can they be cut off from Christ?
 
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