ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

Dave L · Aug 14, 2018

Strong in Him said:
I know. But you said that without sin a person does not have a character; it is only formed by people overcoming sin.
I'm saying that is not the case at all. All people are created in the image of God and our characters/gifts given to us by him. Sin often gets in the way and stops people from seeing God in us; agreed. But that's not the same as what you said.

Sin = zero character. Overcoming sin = character.

Strong in Him · Aug 14, 2018

Dave L said:
Sin = zero character. Overcoming sin = character.

Sin = rebellion against God.
Plenty of people sin, submit to and practice sin - yet still have characters and show patience, humour, perseverance etc.

And this is quite apart from the fact that Jesus has overcome sin for us. We may sometimes struggle to resist temptation, but sin itself has been overcome by Christ. If we accept him we are dead to sin, and the closer we get to him the less we will want to sin. I don't think I've overcome sin at all - it has all been done by, in and through Christ.

Kersh · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Well, having been involved is such discussions, I already know they wont be fruitful.
It is impossible to ignore our being chosen in Him by Him, this concept runs deep throughout the NC scriptures.
There are so many verses that say that, and every single counter verse you come up with is just dismissable, as none explain why someone has decided to believe in Christ, but Calvinism conceptually does explain that using the scriptures.

God makes us born again according to His timing and will for a person, God is not responding to someone's personal choice. Once they are born again, then they desire Him. So any verses your suggesting, I would tell you God has changed their heart already.

Your tone suggests that adamently refuse to consider any opinion on the matter that disagrees with yours. For this reason, I agree that a serious discussion would be fruitless. I pray that someday God opens your heart and mind to consider that other serious, godly Christian brothers and sisters do not share your views of the topic.

Dave L · Aug 15, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Sin = rebellion against God.
Plenty of people sin, submit to and practice sin - yet still have characters and show patience, humour, perseverance etc.

And this is quite apart from the fact that Jesus has overcome sin for us. We may sometimes struggle to resist temptation, but sin itself has been overcome by Christ. If we accept him we are dead to sin, and the closer we get to him the less we will want to sin. I don't think I've overcome sin at all - it has all been done by, in and through Christ.

But, the greater our character becomes, the more we form a habit of doing right.

Loren T. · Aug 15, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Overwhelmingly, choose, chose, chosen, used in verses show God is the one doing the choosing of us.
Not the other way around, we are not talking about people choosing mundane things in verses, we are talking eternal salvation.

sdowney717 said:
Choose, chose, chosen in the NKJV.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Philippians 1:22
But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from mylabor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 12:18
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself;and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 10:42
But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 14:7
[ Take the Lowly Place ] So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 13:18
[ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:2
until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:15
[ Matthias Chosen ] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 6:1
[ Seven Chosen to Serve ] Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists, because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 10:41
not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 13:17
The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:7
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:22
[ The Jerusalem Decree ] Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:25
it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:40
but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 22:14
Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Lol, many of these verses have nothing to do with salvation. And the ones that do, I guarantee have verses around them that show this choosing was not arbitrary. For example, in the John 15 verse, we see the condition is remaining in the vine.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Strong in Him · Aug 15, 2018

Dave L said:
But, the greater our character becomes, the more we form a habit of doing right.

Some people do right anyway.

I have never stolen anything and am, if I might be allowed to say so, pretty honest.
I did not learn to deal with a habit of stealing, by getting arrested; nor have I had to resist the temptation to falsify expenses, shoplift or taking a sick day from work so I could go shopping/see a mate/go to a concert.
My character was not formed through sin or the struggle to resist the temptation.

Many other people are the same.
Someone who is great with children is not that way because they are a paedophile who has learnt to be good with children through struggling with the temptation not to hurt children. They are good with children and can relate to them because that is the gift and character that God has given them.

Like I said, some children are kind, caring, gentle, considerate etc almost from their playpens. They did not learn that through struggling with sin.

BNR32FAN · Aug 15, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Well, having been involved is such discussions, I already know they wont be fruitful.
It is impossible to ignore our being chosen in Him by Him, this concept runs deep throughout the NC scriptures.
There are so many verses that say that, and every single counter verse you come up with is just dismissable, as none explain why someone has decided to believe in Christ, but Calvinism conceptually does explain that using the scriptures.

God makes us born again according to His timing and will for a person, God is not responding to someone's personal choice. Once they are born again, then they desire Him. So any verses your suggesting, I would tell you God has changed their heart already.

I’m curious why do people backslide or even lose faith all together if they are born again before coming to Christ?

Dave L · Aug 15, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Some people do right anyway.

I have never stolen anything and am, if I might be allowed to say so, pretty honest.
I did not learn to deal with a habit of stealing, by getting arrested; nor have I had to resist the temptation to falsify expenses, shoplift or taking a sick day from work so I could go shopping/see a mate/go to a concert.
My character was not formed through sin or the struggle to resist the temptation.

Many other people are the same.
Someone who is great with children is not that way because they are a paedophile who has learnt to be good with children through struggling with the temptation not to hurt children. They are good with children and can relate to them because that is the gift and character that God has given them.

Like I said, some children are kind, caring, gentle, considerate etc almost from their playpens. They did not learn that through struggling with sin.

You are externalizing sin and come out looking pretty good. But if you use the bible to define sin, we all look pretty bad. If we are to love our neighbor as our own-self, it will be hard to have a bank account. Or especially luxury that we place above the well being of others. We all have sin that builds character when we think about what it takes to overcome it.

sdowney717 · Aug 15, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I’m curious why do people backslide or even lose faith all together if they are born again before coming to Christ?

Good question, what makes you think they are born again, born of God, born from above, born anew?

How about what Jude says, there are 3 confirming attributes mentioned of those who are born of God.

Those who are called by God
Those who are sanctified by God the Father
Those who God preserves in Jesus Christ.

Maybe they just had an emotional experience.

Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Strong in Him · Aug 15, 2018

Dave L said:
You are externalizing sin and come out looking pretty good. But if you use the bible to define sin, we all look pretty bad.

Sin is rebellion against God.
The word sin is apparently an old archery term meaning "to fall short of the mark". Scripture says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.", Romans 3:23.
Of course we all look bad; we're all sinners. When Adam disobeyed God, the relationship he had with God was broken; it was marred. Sin came into the world.
There is nothing that any of us can do to repair this relationship and have reconciliation, and peace, with God. Jesus has done that - none of our works, or efforts, can overcome sin and make the relationship perfect again.

You said that a person has no character unless they overcome sin.
If you're talking about overcoming sin in general, we can never do that - that's why Jesus came, to die and do it for us. If you're talking about specific sins; like I said, you don't have to have overcome the sin of stealing to be honest, for example.

It also implies that Adam had no character before he sinned; neither did Jesus, who never sinned at all.

Dave L · Aug 15, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Sin is rebellion against God.
The word sin is apparently an old archery term meaning "to fall short of the mark". Scripture says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.", Romans 3:23.
Of course we all look bad; we're all sinners. When Adam disobeyed God, the relationship he had with God was broken; it was marred. Sin came into the world.
There is nothing that any of us can do to repair this relationship and have reconciliation, and peace, with God. Jesus has done that - none of our works, or efforts, can overcome sin and make the relationship perfect again.

You said that a person has no character unless they overcome sin.
If you're talking about overcoming sin in general, we can never do that - that's why Jesus came, to die and do it for us. If you're talking about specific sins; like I said, you don't have to have overcome the sin of stealing to be honest, for example.

It also implies that Adam had no character before he sinned; neither did Jesus, who never sinned at all.

Every Christian has much sin to overcome. If you don't think so, you might not be in line with the rest of scripture. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

BNR32FAN · Aug 15, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Good question, what makes you think they are born again, born of God, born from above, born anew?

How about what Jude says, there are 3 confirming attributes mentioned of those who are born of God.

Those who are called by God
Those who are sanctified by God the Father
Those who God preserves in Jesus Christ.

Maybe they just had an emotional experience.

Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Well I backslid when I was a newcomer to Christ. Even while I was backsliding I had convictions about it from the Holy Spirit. During that time I was still receiving many blessings. I kept on studying the Bible and immersing myself in the Word hoping that I would grow in my faith and I did. I have no doubt that God sought me out but I also have no doubt that I could’ve easily failed if I had not made the right choices. I kept knocking, and seeking and the door was opened and I did find The Lord. If Calvinism is true you would think that when the jailer asked Paul & Silas what must I do to be saved they might’ve replied “don’t worry about it, if God wants you to be saved you will be, if He doesn’t then you won’t be”. 2 Peter 3:9 says God wants everyone to come to repentance. John 3:16 says God loves the world. Verse 17 days that Jesus was sent to save the world. John 15:1-8 Jesus says to the apostles remain in Me and I will remain in you. Why would He say that to the apostles who were undoubtedly chosen by God? He also warns them that if they do not produce fruit they will be cut off from Him. How can they be cut off if they were chosen by God? God did choose us before creation. The Greek word for chose is
eklégomai which also means to select. God selected us according to two groups. Those who would believe, walk in the Spirit, and were victorious to the end and those who didn’t believe or were not victorious to the end. He selected or chose those who were victorious to the end to be foreordained in the book of life before creation. It’s still based on our free will to decide to love and honor God. God desires our love and fellowship. Love can only be given by free will. It cannot be taken by force.

John tower · Aug 18, 2018

Dave L said:
How could the prophecy be fulfilled if God didn't control every detail including the direction of the wind and its velocity. Do we rob God of his glory saying it just happened this way?

Are these people not afraid who continually question that God is in control of every thing in existence ?

John tower · Aug 18, 2018

Dave L said:
You are reading these passages as though free will is an accepted fact. And this is the natural way to read them. Because all of our laws hold people responsible for their choices. So this is a carnal minded natural understanding of scripture.

But as we renew our minds, we find a spiritual way to understand scripture that revolves around the concepts of grace and works. An example would be: Jesus says whosoever believes has eternal life. Free will would naturally see this gospel as a law. And see belief as a condition a person must choose to meet.

But grace would see it as an announcement telling us what to look for in ourselves and others. Belief is a characteristic of those whom God saves by grace.

Psalms 65(4) and Ephesians 2(8-10)

John tower · Aug 18, 2018

Dave L said:
“A person plans his course, but the Lord directs his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)

Jeremiah 10(23), Psams 65(4)

John tower · Aug 18, 2018

Dave L said:
The way I understand this is; we freely choose what we want and therefore incur responsibility for our sins. But God controls the reasons we base our choices on. Our will always responds to the reasons (secondary causes) God uses to control us to his determined end.

Wrong : We cannot choose anything if we do not have a free will !!

Eloy Craft · Aug 18, 2018

John tower said:
Wrong : We cannot choose anything if we do not have a free will !!

To sin one must choose it freely. Good point!

Eloy Craft · Aug 18, 2018

Dave L said:
God uses to control us to his determined end.

Dave I don't disagree with you very often. Doesn't God work our choices into His plan without subjecting us to His control?

Dave L · Aug 19, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Dave I don't disagree with you very often. Doesn't God work our choices into His plan without subjecting us to His control?

If so, good people would share God's glory and self-righteousness would be virtuous.

Dave L · Aug 19, 2018

John tower said:
Wrong : We cannot choose anything if we do not have a free will !!

Think of it this way. We freely choose according to the reasons we base our choices on. But God controls us by the situations and conditions, the reasons he sends for us to base our choices on.

ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

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