Loren T.
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- Jun 26, 2018
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I'm not so sure that's what the bible actually says. That is, maybe salvation has more than one meaning. I tend to think that if God wants to save the entire world, then God will indeed save the entire world. We already know that according to the gospel, salvation isn't something we can earn by works. But how weird then, to make it contingent on man's ability to believe the exact right thing about a saviour, whom arguably most of the world has never even heard of (most people may have heard about Jesus, but don't really know who he is according to the bible).
It's what the Bible says over and over and over again. Salvation is contingent upon belief. Yes, it seems too simple, and yes, we want to think we can earn it. As far as believing "the exact right thing about a saviour", all we really have to know is that he died for us and that his death and resurrection saves us. Even a child can understand that. It may be weird to us, but it's the wisdom of God.
don't know, but apparently he could be in the presence of evil for at least 33 years, even to the point of eating with sinners and washing their feet, so I don't see why he wouldn't hold out even longer.
And it must have been excruciating for the part of him that was fully God. If we truly love him, we would also not want to put him through the agony again that he has already endured for us.
But that's what would happen had Hitler turned to Christ at the end of his life, right?
Speaking of Hitler, Christians will say one second that he was unjust for torturing people for a few years before killing them, including children, and the next second God's eternal torture of those very same people is just a sign of his righteousness. It clearly doesn't figure, but I sense that you don't believe in hell in the usual Christian sense.
Perhaps you didn't see the part where I specified and unrepentant Hitler? A repentant Hitler would be a totally different person. The usual Christian sense of hell is all over the place. But we mostly agree that it means separation from God's goodness, at minimum.
QUOTE="holo, post: 73059609, member: 21467"]But the bible doesn't say that the price is pride, though. It says the price has already been paid, and as far as I can tell, just as we didn't choose to be born as sinners, we can't choose to be children of God either. Both conditions are God's work and decision.[/QUOTE]
I'm not really sure what you mean. The chief and first sin has always been pride. It's what made Satan fall, it's what made Eve eat the apple, it's the basis of most every other sin. It's thinking we know better than God does what is best. It's what keeps many from bowing to God.
But again, does salvation depend on my ability to repent? If so, that sounds pretty much like it depends on me. My ability to understand something or feel something. Like I must experience some measure (how much exactly by the way?) of guilt in order to be saved. When you boil it down, that sounds like salvation every bit as much a result of man's ability than the Pharisees' incistence that one can somehow "earn" salvation.
Where does it say we can't choose to be children of God? I can quote you hundreds of verses that say we can choose to have faith. We can't save ourselves, but we can choose to allow him to work in us when he enlightens us to our need.
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But again, does salvation depend on my ability to repent? If so, that sounds pretty much like it depends on me. My ability to understand something or feel something. Like I must experience some measure (how much exactly by the way?) of guilt in order to be saved. When you boil it down, that sounds like salvation every bit as much a result of man's ability than the Pharisees' incistence that one can somehow "earn" salvation.
First, no one can earn salvation. That's exactly the point. Of course, you have to experience guilt. If you never felt guilt, why would you repent? Ability? No, it requires zero ability to do anything. What it does require the the humility to let go of the idea that you have the ability to save yourself. Faith is the opposite of self reliance, and maybe that's why so few people get it.
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