Predestination

Halbhh · Aug 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I really wish that were so. I do. I really do. Nothing would please me more. But the Word says otherwise, my friend. Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy or the rejection of Jesus Christ as One's Savior. The context is Hebrews 3 that says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12).

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward." (Hebrews 10:35).

As for Peter denying Christ: Well, Peter did not fulfill the conditions for apostasy in Hebrews 6:4-6. Yes, he denied Christ, but he did not fully know the scope of Christ's death and resurrection and he did not have the Holy Ghost yet. If he did, surely he would not be forgiven.

Only if a believer backslides into sin, can they come back to the faith or to Jesus (See James 5:19-20). Unfortunately, denying Jesus as one's Savior (after one has had the Holy Spirit, and they had been once enlightened, etc.) is unforgivable (According to Hebrews 6:4-6).

This is a language communication problem, in that 'denial' (what Peter did is a perfect example) is not the same as unbelief (even though these 2 may happen together). Next, typically the person stating unbelief may or may not actually still have faith still in their heart (some being out of touch with themselves profoundly; for instance when I doubted, at times I still prayed. See? It's complex -- the difference between a thought and the reality of faith (or lack) in the heart.). 2nd, those stating unbelief may or may not actually have ever had the holy spirit -- many simply haven't truly been saved yet. They don't even have something to lose, yet. So there are several distinct situations that are unalike to each other. The only one being referenced of the several in Hebrews 6 is as it says for those really having the holy spirit already (many have not when young yet, even though they thought they were saved according to their church of the moment), and who then end up truly in unbelief (not just a doubt or intellectual idea, but a reality in the true heart of the person). That's pretty rare. Also, that's not 'denial', though both can happen together. Peter as you already pointed out believed and denied.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2018

Halbhh said:
This is a language communication problem, in that 'denial' (what Peter did is a perfect example) is not the same as unbelief (even though these 2 may happen together). Next, typically the person stating unbelief may or may not actually still have faith still in their heart (some being out of touch with themselves profoundly; for instance when I doubted, at times I still prayed. See? It's complex -- the difference between a thought and the reality of faith (or lack) in the heart.). 2nd, those stating unbelief may or may not actually have ever had the holy spirit -- many simply haven't truly been saved yet. They don't even have something to lose, yet. So there are several distinct situations that are unalike to each other. The only one being referenced of the several in Hebrews 6 is as it says for those really having the holy spirit already (many have not when young yet, even though they thought they were saved according to their church of the moment), and who then end up truly in unbelief (not just a doubt or intellectual idea, but a reality in the true heart of the person). That's pretty rare. Also, that's not 'denial', though both can happen together. Peter as you already pointed out believed and denied.

I agree that is possible that a person may not have the Spirit yet if they accepted Christ while they are young. It is possible, but only the person who accepted Christ and knows if the Spirit was working in their life without a shadow of a doubt can truly tell that for sure (themselves). if they are in doubt that the Spirit worked in their lives, then they may be in the clear. Only God and the other person can know that together. If they repent, and they feel transformed and changed, chances are they are good with the Lord.

akmom · Aug 14, 2018

wonderkins said:
discipling

I don’t know what you mean by fall away. I experienced a darkness during adolescence that I perceived as the absence of God. In retrospect, probably normal adolescent emotions. But as an isolated homeschooled teen at the time, I was unaware of that life stage and discouraged by it.

Again, I’m lost on the semantics of “denying Christ.” I don’t understand what you all mean enough to decipher whether it applied to me. At one point I was resigned to atheism - not in a bitter way, as so many people become - but just as an inevitable acceptance that what I was seeking was not there. But that didn’t last because God did make me aware of His existence. But that’s as far as it goes.

My kids were trying to talk to each other on Walkie Talkies, and it didn’t work because they were both talking at the same time. So neither knew the other was responding. I feel like that was my experience. I was blathering on so much in my seeking of God that I couldn’t hear His reply, till I finally gave up. And in my quietness I could finally feel His obvious presence. But that was the extent of it.

That is always the extent of it. Then I wither.

Halbhh · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
I don’t know what you mean by fall away. I experienced a darkness during adolescence that I perceived as the absence of God. In retrospect, probably normal adolescent emotions. But as an isolated homeschooled teen at the time, I was unaware of that life stage and discouraged by it.

Again, I’m lost on the semantics of “denying Christ.” I don’t understand what you all mean enough to decipher whether it applied to me. At one point I was resigned to atheism - not in a bitter way, as so many people become - but just as an inevitable acceptance that what I was seeking was not there. But that didn’t last because God did make me aware of His existence. But that’s as far as it goes.

My kids were trying to talk to each other on Walkie Talkies, and it didn’t work because they were both talking at the same time. So neither knew the other was responding. I feel like that was my experience. I was blathering on so much in my seeking of God that I couldn’t hear His reply, till I finally gave up. And in my quietness I could finally feel His obvious presence. But that was the extent of it.

That is always the extent of it. Then I wither.

Here's a very good help for you -- begin to read the words of Christ, really listening. A few things (or 1) He said, each day. Some days just one or two verses was so much I was entirely full and had to stop, to dwell with the amazing words He has said (and they are eternal words too!). https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/3.htm (or another gospel in chapter 1)

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

Halbhh said:
It's clear there is language confusion about this very often. And the only aid to that language confusion is tell everyone to read fully through entire books, taking their time. For instance Romans is often misunderstood unless one reads fully through it without an aim to finish quickly, but instead an aim to understand all. When we read Paul quoting a part of a verse "no one seeks God" (about a time in the Old Testament when Israel was very lost), Paul has a broad point he wants to communicate -- we are all lost in sin to begin with. We aren't able to redeem ourselves. We cannot become righteous through our own effort. So, when Christ instructs us believers in Matthew 7 to seek, Paul isn't contradicting Christ and saying no believers seek God. In fact, believers do and should seek God. So, therefore many seek God. Paul has a meaning, and that meaning is about our condition of being lost before we come to Christ in faith. See, I bet we already agree largely about all of this, and that's why I call it "language confusion" -- very often in these discussions people end up talking right past each other, mistakenly thinking the other person means something they do not. So, therefore, I don't presume you disagree. I also don't presume you'll even understand precisely what I mean to say, because my communication isn't perfect either.

It's helpful to be aware that when 5 people use the term "free will" the strong likelihood is that they have 4 or 5 different sets of assumptions about what is meant by the term. So, they all end up arguing past each other, and not even knowing what the other person actually believes even.

Often one person means (among several additional assumptions) by "free will" only and merely and simply the God-given ability of human beings to think and make choices, not more than merely that.

But another person takes the meaning of "free will" to be radically more -- the ability to find God and reconcile to God without God helping. Those differences in meaning are like night vs day. Radical.

So they end up never even knowing what the other person is saying.

Tower of Babel. And that's the normal, even face to face. It takes tremendous patience and sympathy and work to actually learn precisely what another person thinks/believes on such deep topics.

Yes to no one seeks for God when they are 'unregenarate'
Yes to people love God and seek first the kingdom and His righteousness, after they are born of the Father, and this is according to the will of God, so that no man can boast in His presence. Our salvation, and faith is a gift, undeserved. We are all made from the same lump of clay. God molds each one to be what He chooses.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

To have made all 'from the same lump' tells us it is His mercy that saved us and not we ourselves.

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Absolutely, God owns the souls of all men, all souls are mine says the Lord...

Christ can do what He wishes with His own things. that means make from the same lump of fallen clay, one for honor or another for dishonor. Perhaps few are chosen for Honor compared with the many who are on the broadpath of destruction. The Lord is the eternally blessed one and his judgements righteous altogether and past finding out.

Matthew 20
8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they [c]complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For[d] many are called, but few chosen.”

Loren T. · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
I don’t know what you mean by fall away. I experienced a darkness during adolescence that I perceived as the absence of God. In retrospect, probably normal adolescent emotions. But as an isolated homeschooled teen at the time, I was unaware of that life stage and discouraged by it.

Again, I’m lost on the semantics of “denying Christ.” I don’t understand what you all mean enough to decipher whether it applied to me. At one point I was resigned to atheism - not in a bitter way, as so many people become - but just as an inevitable acceptance that what I was seeking was not there. But that didn’t last because God did make me aware of His existence. But that’s as far as it goes.

My kids were trying to talk to each other on Walkie Talkies, and it didn’t work because they were both talking at the same time. So neither knew the other was responding. I feel like that was my experience. I was blathering on so much in my seeking of God that I couldn’t hear His reply, till I finally gave up. And in my quietness I could finally feel His obvious presence. But that was the extent of it.

That is always the extent of it. Then I wither.

As much as I like these discussions, I'm not seeing much point to the debate going on here, if people aren't also addressing your personal issues. Kinda like missing the forest for the trees. You need some solid Bible teaching from a source that is not just all about one topic. Maybe you could find another mid week service at another church or even a good teacher on the radio or internet that is going to encourage you to walk with God and not harp on doctrine points that ultimately don't help the starving soul, but only tend to confuse.
God will reveal himself is we seek him, but I know all about talking to much and not listening and also about not being able to get quiet often enough. Life just gets crazy sometimes.

Loren T. · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

To have made all 'from the same lump' tells us it is His mercy that saved us and not we ourselves.

Only, Paul is not even talking about salvation there.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

akmom,

[The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.]
Sounds good so far...predestination is a bible truth.

[I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy.}

Two things here. If you never heard of these terms the previous pastor was ignorant of church history and most likely doctrine. That you refer to your pastor as "this guy" shows a pronounced lack of respect.
1tim 5;
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

[I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. ]
This is your own fault. You have been in the church all your life and are by your own post condemned as ignorant of Divine truth. How do you account for this? Do you not respect God and His word enough to find out what He has revealed?

[It seemed like splitting hairs.]
It seemed that way because you have no idea what the teaching is.

[ I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it.]
Jesus taught that;
jn6;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[ And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what.]

Well what do you think happens to sinners who do not come to Jesus?

[ It seems to be a well received position in the church,]
from the 1689 confession of faith;
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
[and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.]

They left Jesus when He preached these things also...goats do not like sheep food
see here;
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

[So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. ]
You have "gone to church" but do you know Jesus?

{I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it.}

That is a problem. The Spirit is given so we can welcome truth;
mt13;
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[ If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? ]

Salvation is for the elect....No non elect person will be in heaven.If you do not like the teaching, it could be time to seek Jesus.
The persecuted Apostle Paul said it this way;
2tim2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?]
God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

[I was always taught that salvation was for everyone,]

everyone is not going to be saved.
[ and everyone could accept it.]
The gospel is preached to all men...it is a command to be obeyed.....it is not an intellectual proposition to be accepted, or rejected....such language is not used in scripture.
Instead we are made....ACCEPTED...in Jesus;
eph1;
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either,]
Today is still the day of salvation;heb3;

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

[ but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything.]

That is fatalism....you are fully responsible.

[Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God? ]
Sit down with that "guy" you do not like and ask him to go over salvation with you.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

Loren T. said:
Only, Paul is not even talking about salvation there.

of course he is speaking of salvation....

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
While God may have plans for us, we have to do our part to be with God every day. We have free will to refuse God or to accept Him. Every day we have to choose this day in whom we will serve. God never forces us to be a certain way. God relates to us in real time. Yes, I believe God will strive to do things in our life to draw us to Him, because He is long-suffering towards us, but if some men keep slapping God away, there is going to be a point where He will let them go.

Again, the threat towards Nineveh was very real. God is not into false scare tactics. This is what destroys Calvinism.

You are describing a gospel of works which is not the biblical gospel.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

bcbsr

[As you note, Calvinism first of all has virtually no applications. ]
The teaching applies to every aspect of life as it is the biblical teaching.

[It's a passive puppet theology ]
This shows you lack understanding completely.

[in which people are viewed as being inanimate objects]

[devoid of free will, ]
Men have self will, that is bound by sin. Free will does not exist;

http://archive.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.php

[and no suprise when they treat others that way. To affirm their point they have to restrict themselves to certain scripture and avoid most of the rest of the scriptures, which is what he's doing.]
A biblucal calvinist will go to any scripture at any time.

[In Acts 16 a man asked, "What must I do to be saved?" If they Calvinists answer to that man goes off script obsessing over their Calvinistic armchair theology rather than answering how the apostle does, then there's something wrong. Paul answer "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved."]
an absurd caricature.

[Best to stick with a non-Reformed Baptist church,]
haha, yes, if you want to remain ignorant of Divine truth,
For those who would like to learn,
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

[or a non-demoninational church which hasn't pledged allegiance to a theological brand but teaches the scriptures thoroughly.]
a myth right here....

[Better yet are discussion oriented Bible study groups which go verse by verse through the epistles.]
9 times out of 10 this becomes shared ignorance.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
You are describing a gospel of works which is not the biblical gospel.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

God's grace is how we are initially and ultimately saved. Then good works flow through the believer by the Lord living in them as a part of the salvation process. If this is not the case, then a believer can sin as much as they like and be an unprofitable servant for the Lord and still be saved. But what happened to the unprofitable servant?

Actually, most (and possibly not all) Eternal Security proponents believe in a half gospel or a milk type only gospel (i.e. The gospel's initial portion that tells them to believe in His death and resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the milk of the Word that the Corinthians could only accept. It was the only message they could bear (See 1 Corinthians 3:2-3). It's why Paul said he came not to know anything among the Corinthians accept Jesus and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) because they would not be able to bear the second half of the message of the gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). In fact, please look at Hebrews 5:14; For it defines "strong meat" as being able to discern between good and evil.

Anyways, the majority of Eternal Security proponents do not believe in the Bible's full or complete gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). The second half or truth of the gospel is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and so as to live holy and be zealous of good works. How so? Well,

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Titus 2:14 says,
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says,
13 "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, "

Romans 15:18-19 says,
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient —
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. NKJV

Romans 1:16-18 says,
16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

What is this faith look like?

James 2:17
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

James 2:24
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

James 2:18
“shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Hebrews 9:14
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God

Colossians 1:21-23
21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.”

Colossians 2:6-7
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith,as ye have been taught,”

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

Jason0047,

[The word "if" is not a guarantee. The word "if" suggests a possibility.]
nope

[John 6 ...
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Notice the word "should" in there. Again, this does not suggest a guarantee.
For example: That would be like me saying, "I should be over your house tomorrow, but I have a lot of work to do." Would you take this as a promise or guarantee that I was coming over? No. Of course not. So why would you read a guarantee into the words in John 6?
Because of your preconceived beliefs (or what you prefer to see).]

It is a certainty. Jesus is surety, [guarantee]hebrews 7:22-25....Your rebellion against truth is causing you to suggest Jesus did not accomplish a perfect redemption.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
It is a certainty. Jesus is surety, [guarantee]hebrews 7:22-25....You rebellion against truth is causing you to suggest Jesus did not accomplish a perfect redemption.

Please address at least a few of the verses I brought forth first and then I will reply to your piece of Scripture. Thank you.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

37 all that the Father doth give to me will come unto me; and him who is coming unto me, I may in no wise cast without,

38 because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me.

39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;

40 and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.'

Bengel's Gnomen
John 6:39. Δὲ, moreover) The will of the Father, mentioned in John 6:38, is more fully declared in this ver.—τοῦ πέμψαντός με Πατρός—40, τοῦ Πατρὸς τοῦ πέμψαντός με, of Him who hath sent Me, even the Father—of the Father, who hath sent Me) Such is the oldest reading. [[135][136] Vulg. and Rec. Text read τοῦ πέμψαντός με Πατρός, at John 6:39; but [137][138][139][140][141][142] Hilar. 238, omit Πατρός. At John 6:40, [143][144][145][146][147] read τοῦ Πατρός μου: [148] and Rec. Text read τοῦ πέμψαντός με. Vulg. as Beng. reads both: patris mei, qui misit me.] At John 6:39, mention is made of His being sent; and at John 6:40, the name of the Father is appropriately placed first: for in John 6:39, on comparing it and John 6:38 together, the sendingproperly corresponds to the will of the Father; but at John 6:40, the name of the Father, and the name of the Son, properly refer to one another. [The correlatives are, at John 6:39, the sending (of the Father), and the care of Christ (to lose nothing of all given to Him); and at John 6:40, the will of the Father, and salvation in the Son.—Not. Crit.] The chief varieties of readings noticed in the introduction do not affect the main argument of this note.—[149] ΠᾶΝ, all) See note on John 6:37.—δέδωκέ μοι, hath given Me) They are given to the Son, to whomsoever faith is given. Comp. the following ver., “Every one which seeth the Son and believeth on Him.”—μὴ ἀπολέσω, I should not lose) To this losing [loss of the soul] is opposed everlasting life, John 6:40 : ch. John 3:15, etc., “That, whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life.”—ἐξ αὐτοῦ) of it, of all that, which the Father hath given to Me.—ἀναστήσω, raise it up again) to life, John 6:33, “He that—giveth life unto the world.” So John 6:40; John 6:44; John 6:54. This [the resurrection] is the ultimate limit, beyond which there is no danger. The Saviour engages to guarantee all things anterior to it. He gives a sign in this ver. and John 6:62, “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where He was before?” but a sign that was to be hereafter, whereas the Jews were importuning Him for a present sign; John 6:30. The resurrection, which presupposes death, is often here mentioned, because the Lord Himself was still about to die and rise again: comp. note, ch. John 11:25, “I am the resurrection and the life,” etc. But afterwards the apostles set before believers rather His glorious coming again.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 14, 2018

Jason0047 said:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

God's grace is how we are initially and ultimately saved. Then good works flow through the believer by the Lord living in them as a part of the salvation process. If this is not the case, then a believer can sin as much as they like and be an unprofitable servant for the Lord and still be saved. But what happened to the unprofitable servant?

Actually, most (and possibly not all) Eternal Security proponents believe in a half gospel or a milk type only gospel (i.e. The gospel's initial portion that tells them to believe in His death and resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the milk of the Word that the Corinthians could only accept. It was the only message they could bear (See 1 Corinthians 3:2-3). It's why Paul said he came not to know anything among the Corinthians accept Jesus and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) because they would not be able to bear the second half of the message of the gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). In fact, please look at Hebrews 5:14; For it defines "strong meat" as being able to discern between good and evil.

Anyways, the majority of Eternal Security proponents do not believe in the Bible's full or complete gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). The second half or truth of the gospel is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and so as to live holy and be zealous of good works. How so? Well,

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Titus 2:14 says,
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says,
13 "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, "

Romans 15:18-19 says,
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient —
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. NKJV

Romans 1:16-18 says,
16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

What is this faith look like?

James 2:17
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

James 2:24
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

James 2:18
“shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Hebrews 9:14
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God

Colossians 1:21-23
21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.”

Colossians 2:6-7
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith,as ye have been taught,”

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.... We work because God works in us...
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
I don’t know what you mean by fall away. I experienced a darkness during adolescence that I perceived as the absence of God. In retrospect, probably normal adolescent emotions. But as an isolated homeschooled teen at the time, I was unaware of that life stage and discouraged by it.

Again, I’m lost on the semantics of “denying Christ.” I don’t understand what you all mean enough to decipher whether it applied to me. At one point I was resigned to atheism - not in a bitter way, as so many people become - but just as an inevitable acceptance that what I was seeking was not there. But that didn’t last because God did make me aware of His existence. But that’s as far as it goes.

My kids were trying to talk to each other on Walkie Talkies, and it didn’t work because they were both talking at the same time. So neither knew the other was responding. I feel like that was my experience. I was blathering on so much in my seeking of God that I couldn’t hear His reply, till I finally gave up. And in my quietness I could finally feel His obvious presence. But that was the extent of it.

That is always the extent of it. Then I wither.

God does not tell His people to seek Him in vain, He will reward those who endure faithfully, occupy, till He comes.

Isaiah 45:18-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 For thus says the Lord,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it [a]in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret,
In a dark place of the earth;
I did not say to the seed of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in vain’;
I, the Lord, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.

You really need to learn from the scriptures, and He will help you, if you take the time to sit at His feet and learn of Him as did Mary. We learn of Him by spending time with Him in His word, and through prayer.

Luke 19

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Bobber · Aug 14, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
The gospel is preached to all men...it is a command to be obeyed.....

Yeah and your teaching has it that God commands all to repent but states they don't have the capacity to do so and they get punished for something not their fault unless you're going to claim they had a choice as to whether they'd be born or not. That'd be like saying someone is born disabled, can't walk, and you demand they run around the block and because they can't you put blame on them and punish them for not being able to do so. And that's your viewpoint of justice. That type of way IS NOT the God of the Bible.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.... We work because God works in us...
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Yes, that is what I was saying. I believe any good work a believer does is not by their own power but by the power of God working in them. But we cannot be both right. Your gospel message is not the one I see described in the Bible. For do you believe David was saved while he was committing his sins of adultery and murder?

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