Edited: Question on Catholic beliefs

LoveofTruth

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Our flesh and His flesh are being made one flesh for we are all partakers of that one bread. What bread? The verse right before it explains.

1 Corinthians 10:16


16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

What is the bread?

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Our common union is in Christ through his body that was crucified and shed blood of the cross. But Paul says that we being many are one bread. WE are one bread. Notice the wording. In Christ we are one bread and one new man. The bread and cup are for reminders of this and as we edify one another we are all partakers of that one bread, (which Paul shows is us as the one bread).

Christ is the head of the church. We also read of Jesus coming in to men and supping with them, inwardly. This is in Revelation 3. This inward supper or communion is the participation of the Lord with us. This working is a fellowship in the mystery of Christ and Christ as the head works effectually in every part.

Ephesians 4:16
"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."


No he didn't say that. He said, and I paraphrase; We knew Him in the flesh but from now on we know Him no more.

" yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Bias is where we least expect it sometimes.

Yes they cannot say they know Christ after the flesh now, for he is physically in heaven. He is in the hearts of all believers however as they abide in Him through faith. So to say we know him after the flesh of the bread now and need to eat the physical bread to have Christ in us is not scriptural or true according to scripture. Christ dwells in our heart (not stomach) by faith.

2 Corinthians 4:18
"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal"
 
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Eloy Craft

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Our common union is in Christ through his body that was crucified and shed blood of the cross. B
according to Paul Christ's body is His flesh. According to observation as well our bodies can be called our flesh. You are denying Christ has flesh?

The bread and cup are for reminders o
According to Paul they are more than that. A communion with Christ's Body and blood includes Him.
 
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Jipsah

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Isn't that where Jesus literally turned the drink into his actual blood and the bread into his actual flesh? Yeah that's crazy and not what the Bible says at all if I'm talking about the same thing.
Well yeah, that actuially is what our Lord said. And St.Paul reemphasized it, saying that taking the communion without discerning the Body and Blood of Christ could cause one to eat and drink damnation. You might want to go over those Scriptures again.
 
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LoveofTruth

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according to Paul Christ's body is His flesh. According to observation as well our bodies can be called our flesh. You are denying Christ has flesh?

According to Paul they are more than that. A communion with Christ's Body and blood includes Him.
No I am not denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh neither is Paul. He rose again according to the flesh and will come back the same way he left. To say he comes back in the bread literally is error.

The bible shows that the church (called out assembly of believers) is the body of Christ (Eph. 1)

We being many are one body and one bread.

These are deep mysteries in scripture and remember the kingdom of God is not meat and drink.

For me, I cannot bow down to a piece of bread as God, that would be idolatry snd perhaps denying that he is in the flesh in heaven if I say the bread is his flesh literally.
 
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Eloy Craft

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No I am not denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh neither is Paul. He rose again according to the flesh and will come back the same way he left. To say he comes back in the bread literally is error.
I didn't ask Paul I asked you. Also, no one believes He comes back as the bread. That's a strawman. In the Bread He never left.


Ephesians 5:30
"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."
According to Paul we are members of His flesh and bones. When he say's body you can insert flesh.

1 Corinthians 10:17
"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
As I wrote before. Our flesh and His flesh are being made one flesh for we are all partakers of that one bread. Your response was a denial that Christ is included. You said;

Our common union is in Christ through his body that was crucified and shed blood of the cross. But Paul says that we being many are one bread. WE are one bread. Notice the wording. In Christ we are one bread and one new man. The bread and cup are for reminders of this and as we edify one another we are all partakers of that one bread, (which Paul shows is us as the one bread).
Your first sentence is not explained but denied by the rest of your statement.

We are one bread because we PARTAKE of THAT one bread. THAT bread is Christ. You seem to want to exclude Christ's participation.
10:17
"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


1 Corinthians 10:16

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

What is the bread?

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Remember, Paul doesn't distinguish the body from the flesh they are the same and Paul doesn't omit Christ from the communion cup and bread and the bread, Paul writes is Christ .

You seem to refuse to acknowledge these truth's of scripture.
 
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LoveofTruth

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1 Corinthians 10:16

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

What is the bread?

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Remember, Paul doesn't distinguish the body from the flesh they are the same and Paul doesn't omit Christ from the communion cup and bread and the bread, Paul writes is Christ .

You seem to refuse to acknowledge these truth's of scripture.
The literal supper of bread and fruit of the vine was a type of the New testament as Hebrews shows the testament is no in force or effect until the death of the testator. So Jesus showing the meaning of the shadow of the passover, gave it a spiritual understanding in the reality of his death. But when men come to God and believe on him this is how they eat and drink. With the heart man beleiveth unto righteousness and through faith in the blood we are cleansed and washed from our sins in his own blood.

Man shall not live by bread alone ( by earthly substance) but by every word that proceedeth our of the mouth of God.

we eat the word. Thy word was found and i did eat.

The word is sown in the heart, this is Christ the Word of God. He is our food inwardly. He said he would come into us and sup with us. This inward reality of Christ in believers through faith and continual faith is how we are parts of the body of Christ and how we are one bread and one body.
As parts of that one bread and body of Christ we can edify one another as Christ works effectually in every one of us. This edifying and feeding one another comes from the life in Christ. Without him we can do nothing. This is spiritual. Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that he spoke theyare spirit and they are life.

The bread of God, that came down from heaven is Jesus. He said it is not as they did eat manna ( literal bread) and are dead. But He is the true bread the living bread that came down from heaven. This relates to his incarnation and to his work in believers through faith.

Jesus said how men can eat his flesh and drink his blood. He said,

"32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst....
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

"(John 6:32-34 KJV)

The flesh Jesus speaks of here is connected to his death on the cross and shed blood, but the inward life is by the new birth and having Christ dwell in our hearts by faith. This inward life in by God's grace and this comes through the word of God sown in the heart, the incorruptible seed as peter said. The engrafted word which is able to save the soul.


Jesus clearly shows that the life is spiritual and in the word here,

"63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."(John 6:63 KJV)

Jesus also said that he had meat o eat that they know not of. His meat was to do the will of the Father, and then he says this connected to that statement,

"32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?

34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."(John 4:32-34 KJV)

""27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,"...57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me."(John 6:27,57 KJV)



also blessed are those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled.

But this spiritual eating and drinking has been the non carnal spiritual food of the saints of all time.

The OT saints also ate the same spiritual meat and spiritual drink. "spiritual" in Greek there is non carnal.


'
 
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Eloy Craft

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Jesus clearly shows that the life is spiritual and in the word here,
You just can't seem to accept that in Christ spiritual doesn't mean'not physical'. Unless you can be open to that truth of the Risen Christ you can't understand the nature of the Bread from Heaven.
 
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LoveofTruth

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You just can't seem to accept that in Christ spiritual doesn't mean'not physical'. Unless you can be open to that truth of the Risen Christ you can't understand the nature of the Bread from Heaven.
“Spiritual”

Means, (as used in 1 Cor 10:3,4) referring to spiritual meat and in Romans we see the same Greek word for Spiritual etc. As opposed to the flesh

from 4151; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:--spiritual. Compare 5591.
 
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Eloy Craft

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he OT saints also ate the same spiritual meat and spiritual drink. "spiritual" in Greek there is non carnal.
Then what is the purpose of the Incarnation? Non carnal means not flesh of earth. Christ's flesh is not earthly but is physical. What physical spiritual flesh was there before Christ? What spiritual flesh did the OT saints eat?
 
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Eloy Craft

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“Spiritual”

Means, (as used in 1 Cor 10:3,4) referring to spiritual meat and in Romans we see the same Greek word for Spiritual etc. As opposed to the flesh

from 4151; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:--spiritual. Compare 5591.
So you are saying that Christ doesn't have flesh after His Resurrection or that His flesh is no longer physical?
 
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Ronald

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His audience for the Bread of Life discourse understood what you do not
They did not - which is why they left. They were confused. He said it to get rid of them, the Pharisees and their sinful ways. His physical sacrifice affects us spiritually. We, in a sense die on that cross to our sins ... but not over and over again every week. When we are forgiven, His forgiveness is permanent, and applies to past, present and future sins. It comes from a spiritual realm outside of our time domain.
The Old Testament sacrifices were shadows of the once and for all sacrifice. "I am the manna that came down from heaven." The Word is our nourishment for our souls that we consume, nothing physical transforms us. It is a spiritual transformation that comes by the Word. Our faith comes by the Word, not a piece of bread or wine. We take those elements to remember ... it is you who don't understand. Maybe you've been praying to the Saints and Mary too much. It is our Father to Whom we pray, to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit. We don't go to the dead to intercede for us. But this of course is a futile attempt to enlighten you.
 
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Jipsah

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TOur faith comes by the Word, not a piece of bread or wine. We take those elements to remember .
"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." So yes, we take it in remembrance, and yes, it's His Body and Blood. The obvious dodging of the "remembrance only" folks is almost painful to watch.

.. it is you who don't understand. Maybe you've been praying to the Saints and Mary too much.
And maybe you pay too much attention to your doctrine and not enough to the very words of our Lord. The old "that's not what He really meant", or simply acting as though He hadn't said the things that conflict with your doctrine at all is at very best intellectually dishonest.

It is our Father to Whom we pray, to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit. We don't go to the dead to intercede for us.
Better not ask any of your church brethren to pray for you, either. They're nit God, after all.

But this of course is a futile attempt to enlighten you.
That kind of "enlightment" is often found in Chick Comix and similarly impressive theological works.
 
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Eloy Craft

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They did not - which is why they left. They were confused. He said it to get rid of them,
Yikes! Jesus uses truth as a tool to reject people? Not Jesus. They understood. This isn't Jesus causing confusion in his disciples 'to get rid' of them but a lesson in unbelief. Hard truth separates the believers from the unbelievers.
 
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TuxAme

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They did not - which is why they left. They were confused. He said it to get rid of them, the Pharisees and their sinful ways. His physical sacrifice affects us spiritually. We, in a sense die on that cross to our sins ... but not over and over again every week. When we are forgiven, His forgiveness is permanent, and applies to past, present and future sins. It comes from a spiritual realm outside of our time domain.
The Old Testament sacrifices were shadows of the once and for all sacrifice. "I am the manna that came down from heaven." The Word is our nourishment for our souls that we consume, nothing physical transforms us. It is a spiritual transformation that comes by the Word. Our faith comes by the Word, not a piece of bread or wine. We take those elements to remember ... it is you who don't understand.
Don't make this about me and accuse me of anything. You can certainly make your point without character assassination.

On topic, are you suggesting that Jesus let His audience go without explanation? That He let them leave over a misunderstanding that He could have cleared up (and He corrected misunderstandings at every opportunity). What kind of a teacher would that make Him? His audience understood Him perfectly well, and this is why He didn't chase after those who left. They understood Him and rejected Him- there was nothing more to do. He didn't, as you suggest, allow them to believe erroneously and leave Him for that reason.

Was Jesus' death a sacrifice or not? Is He a Passover sacrifice? Not according to your own theology. How could He be our Passover if we don't complete the sacrifice? You would have us slay the lamb and leave it at that, but God made it clear that the sacrifice didn't end with the death of the lamb. It had to be consumed. If you didn't eat the lamb, there was no sacrifice- you just killed an animal. You are at odds with God's Word.
 
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Then what is the purpose of the Incarnation? Non carnal means not flesh of earth. Christ's flesh is not earthly but is physical. What physical spiritual flesh was there before Christ? What spiritual flesh did the OT saints eat?
It sounds very mystical and all to talk the way you are doing, but the belief for the first 900 or more years of church history was the Real Presence, not Transubstantiation.

Tradition and the Church Fathers are always held up as decisive when it comes to defending some Catholic teachings, but with this issue, out they go! ;)
 
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TuxAme

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It sounds very mystical and all to talk the way you are doing, but the belief for the first 900 or more years of church history was the Real Presence, not Transubstantiation.
:confused: Transubstantiation explains how the Real Presence "happens". Did I miss something?
 
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LoveofTruth

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So you are saying that Christ doesn't have flesh after His Resurrection or that His flesh is no longer physical?
No. He rose again according to the flesh. And the Word was made flesh.

This Word is the life and the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. In him was life and the life was the light of men.

Jesus said they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have LIFE IN THEM. This life is spiritual life.

Jesus also said the words that I speak they are spirit and they are life. We are born again by the word of God the seed sown in the heart.

This word is Christ , the true Light the seed, the truth in the inward parts.

This is the free gift that came upon all men, but this only came upon all through the work of Jesus Christ come in the flesh and dying on the cross for our sin and shedding His blood and rising again.

Jesus died on that cross and he is the salvation. But if a man says they believe in the gospel but does not have the new birth they are not saved . The inward life is the reality of his belief. This is a two fold aspect. one is the work of Christ on the cross without us and the other is the work of the cross within us.

We are also crucified with him, burried with him and risen with him.

But unless Jesus Christ came in the flesh and died on the cross the free gift would not have been purchased , which is the seed sown and word and Light that lighteth every man, Christ in us the hope of glory. We have this treasure in earthen vessels. And God is not far from every one of us. All men can feel after Him and find him Acts 17,
 
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LoveofTruth

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:confused: Transubstantiation explains how the Real Presence "happens". Did I miss something?
No, it does not and to every believer in Jesus we read that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. If Jesus is already in the heart and abides there as we abide in him, then we do not need to eat him in bread to get him into our stomach.

He dwells in the heart by faith, not in the stomach by literal eating.

We are to worship God only, not bread made with human hands.

Also when did Jesus say he changed the bread to Himself?

God was manifest in the flesh, not God was manifest in man made bread.

The most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands Acts 17.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Christ's flesh is not earthly but is physical. What physical spiritual flesh was there before Christ?
So are you saying that Christ did not come in the flesh? Are you saying he was not really human?, or that his flesh was not human flesh?

I hope your not saying this.

He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin condemned sin in the flesh Romans 8.

Jesus is the second Adam.
 
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