Predestination

About Nineveh, God says only Israel has He known of all the families of the earth.
I read about no relationship with that nation in scripture. God's promise was to not immediately destroy them after their reaction to His message, they were destroyed some years later though.

Amos 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Authority of the Prophet’s Message
1 Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:

2 “You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”

sdowney717 said:

There is no idea the ninevites were spared hell and saved. This was under the OC system, and they were not joined to Israel, and could not offer sacrifices, and had no priests of the Lord.

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Was OT God different from NT God?

sdowney717 said:

There is no idea the ninevites were spared hell and saved. This was under the OC system, and they were not joined to Israel, and could not offer sacrifices, and had no priests of the Lord.

Click to expand...

You made me read it again, and it's been a while, and it's a great thing to read. Now notice wording though --

From chapter 1, we start:
1The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2“Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

3 But Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish. .... (we know this part of the story.....)

.... (chapter 2 ends 10 And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

1 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”

3Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

(notice how at this point, Nineveh has been redeemed from destruction, which is as much as ever is given in the Old Testament to nations/cities after they repent of their misdeeds...)

continues in chapter 4 --

1 But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”

4 But the Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”

5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the Lord God provided a leafy plant and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant.7But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”

9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”

“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”

10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

----------
This last verse really rings in our ears.
God cares about lives lost in sin, and about bringing peoples out of their sins, even nations outside Israel.

It's just like John chapter 3, as quoted above, especially verse 17 is notable -- God doesn't want to condemn and destroy. He wants to redeem. He has made a way that whoever would believe can be saved.

Whosoever!

sdowney717 said:

There is no idea the ninevites were spared hell and saved. This was under the OC system, and they were not joined to Israel, and could not offer sacrifices, and had no priests of the Lord.

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Jesus says, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas;" (Matthew 12:41) (KJV).

Jesus says, "The people of Nineveh will stand up against this generation on judgment day and condemn it, for they repented of their sins at the preaching of Jonah." (Matthew 12:41) (NLT).

You can't condemn others on Judgment Day if you are also condemned.
Jesus says they repented at the preaching of Jonah.
Jesus ties in repentance in relation to salvation.
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).
Peter says,
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" (Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

sdowney717 said:

About Nineveh, God says only Israel has He known of all the families of the earth.
I read about no relationship with that nation in scripture. God's promise was to not immediately destroy them after their reaction to His message, they were destroyed some years later though.

Amos 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Authority of the Prophet’s Message
1 Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:

2 “You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”

Click to expand...

A different generation (not the one Jonah preached to), later in time, more wicked, with different evil deeds (and not repenting), and destroyed. Like Ezekiel chapter 18.

One timeline bit I saw:

Typically, Jonah is dated to the period of Jeroboam, i.e 780 - 750s BC, whereas Nahum is dated to either shortly before (615BC) or after (612BC) the fall of Assyria (and its capital, Nineveh). Thus, Nahum is at least 150 years after Jonah.
https://christianity.stackexchange....-is-the-ordering-of-events-in-nahum-and-jonah

Halbhh said:

You made me read it again, and it's been a while, and it's a great thing to read. Now notice wording though --

From chapter 1, we start:
1The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2“Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

3 But Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish. .... (we know this part of the story.....)

.... (chapter 2 ends 10 And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

1 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”

3Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

(notice how at this point, Nineveh has been redeemed from destruction, which is as much as ever is given in the Old Testament to nations/cities after they repent of their misdeeds...)

continues in chapter 4 --

1 But to Jonah this seemed very wrong, and he became angry. 2 He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.”

4 But the Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”

5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the Lord God provided a leafy plant and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant.7But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be better for me to die than to live.”

9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?”

“It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”

10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

----------
This last verse really rings in our ears.
God cares about lives lost in sin, and about bringing peoples out of their sins, even nations outside Israel.

It's just like John chapter 3, as quoted above, especially verse 17 is notable -- God doesn't want to condemn and destroy. He wants to redeem. He has made a way that whoever would believe can be saved.

Whosoever!

Click to expand...

Just purely temporal compassion, and notice that includes animals. Are plants and animals saved?
and those ninevites did not know right hand from left, so they simply die in ignorance unsaved.
I have to go.

sdowney717 said:

There is no idea the ninevites were spared hell and saved. This was under the OC system, and they were not joined to Israel, and could not offer sacrifices, and had no priests of the Lord.

Click to expand...

I'd suggest you err in the basic understanding of God's dealings with people throughout history. Romans 2:14-16 states,

"... for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Rom 2:14-16

So on the day of judgement an unbeliever who had no knowledge of the law or the gospel will be judged based morals where God will say here's your conscience, now here's what you did, and here's what you knew when you did it. Their own conscience will accuse them or excuse them before God. So God will be a righteous, judge and it appears he holds people accountable to the measure of light they've received.

So is there any need to embrace Calvinistic thinking based on thinking there's no way such individuals can or could be saved for they didn't actually hear the gospel or the law. NO. I'd say God has considered ALL these things and everyone will receive proper justice and fairness. Now that's not to say God didn't move upon them to seek to learn about sacrifices and blood and if he did that'd be light they'd have to give account for either accepting or rejecting.

Bobber said:

I'd suggest you err in the basic understanding of God's dealings with people throughout history. Romans 2:14-16 states,

"... for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Rom 2:14-16

So on the day of judgement an unbeliever who had no knowledge of the law or the gospel will be judged based morals where God will say here's your conscience, now here's what you did, and here's what you knew when you did it. Their own conscience will accuse them or excuse them before God. So God will be a righteous, judge and it appears he holds people accountable to the measure of light they've received.

So is there any need to embrace Calvinistic thinking based on thinking there's no way such individuals can or could be saved for they didn't actually hear the gospel or the law. NO. I'd say God has considered ALL these things and everyone will receive proper justice and fairness. Now that's not to say God didn't move upon them to seek to learn about sacrifices and blood and if he did that'd be light they'd have to give account for either accepting or rejecting.

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Ok, I did not know that you dont believe in Christ as the only way to the Father that explains a lot.
Jesus said He was the way truth and life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him.
In His name is preached the forgiveness of sins, I would council you to repent of your unbelief in Christ and confess him as the only Lord and Savior of your soul, and not fall back on relying on some excusing of conscience supposedly God the Father will do for those who do not believe in the gospel of Christ.

akmom said:

I was saved when I was young, and it was very real to me, and I was compelled to share Jesus with everyone. But I came from a family of end-times fanatics and a church of hell-fire-brimstone preachers that urged us into a really aggressive form of evangelism that I tried to adopt, but ultimately found it really hard to tell everyone to hurry and repent or they’d burn. It felt like following a script, so I decided it was disingenuous and stopped.

I did share my experiences of Jesus’s love with close friends, some whom went on to accept Jesus but later abandoned that faith. I remember having candid, honest talks with people of different faiths, no faith, similar faith... around a campfire with no agenda, no threats of hell, no accusations of heresy. Just love for one another and a sincere interest in others’ thoughts and experiences, and a unanimous desire to seek God’s truth. Even when no consensus materialized.

So I really kind of shut off when I go to churches with divisive attitudes, who obsess over hell as if they are eager to see theological opponents go there. Who obsess over politics and hot button issues instead of people. And especially groups who are resistant to discussing anything that challenges their dogma. I just grew up seeing that version of practicing faith and it was ugly.

I love this church because the people are loving, and humble, and sincerely willing to make personal sacrifices for the body of Christ and the community. I do think they are for real. And they are upfront about non-Calvinist persuasions being welcome and within the scope of orthodox Christianity.

However, that’s where it ends. Because every sermon is about predestination. Repetitive is an under statement. I leave every Sunday with the question, “What did I get from this? What do I do with this??” Nothing. God did everything for you. So just accept His grace. And yet everyone else seems to respond with conviction, post to Facebook about how moved they are. And me, I don’t even get it. I’m so confused I found I couldn’t even explain it to my kids.

I haven’t grown spiritually in so many years I don’t even know why I’m in church. That connection I had to God at one point just feels gone. And everything about predestination theology seems wrong, like the aggressive hell-based evangelism felt wrong. But I’m not inclined to just believe whatever I want. It has to actually be truth. I don’t feel convicted of any truth... yet others do, and it’s a community of believers I love very much, so I’m trying to reconcile the discrepancy.

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I understand your frustration about those who seek to damn others as if they wish others harm. However, we (as believers in Jesus Christ) have to be loving and good even towards our enemies. For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God loves us and sent His Son for us to provide a way of escape for ALL people (if they so desire that way of escape). The path of walking in Christ is not always an easy one. The way to get close to God is by repentance. Repentance is by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus. The fruits of repentance is in obeying His commands or doing good works according to the New Testament (or New Covenant).

Hell is also not what people think it is, either. It is not a torture chamber in flames for all eternity as many think. Yes, hell is a real and literal place. This is true. However, in Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame." the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. Also, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a conversation with you? Also, the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment) will be a place of eventual destruction or annihilation for the wicked and it will not be a place where they will burn for all eternity. Jesus says in Matthew 10:28, "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Note: "Gehenna" means: "Lake of Fire").

As for your frustration with understanding Calvinistic Predestination: Well, do you honestly believe God forces some people to be saved and others not to be saved? I would say that if you don't believe that, it is time for you to find another church or even a small house fellowship of believers who love the Lord and want to serve Him. On a moral level, Calvinistic Predestination has problems because why would God even have a judgment for men if it was ultimately God who put them all there (without their choice)? Meaning, how can God condemn men for something that is beyond their control? That would be like a man who yells and lightly smacks his dog every time he poops on the carpet (even despite the fact that the man knows that the dog is sick and he has an uncontrollable pooping problem). That is how I see Calvinism. It is utter ridiculousness. But people eat this stuff up because they find it helpful to their personal lives in some way. But God is not about fitting in with our personal needs. God is about how we need to conform to His image and walk in His good ways. It's about loving God and loving everyone.

It matters nothing what a persons conscience says about excusing their sins before God.
All the matters is if a person is in Christ or not.
People will excuse themselves to God, blame anything or anyone but themselves for their sins.

There is no salvation, no other name whereby we must be saved except the name of Jesus Christ, and in that passage, it says
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

and Jesus already told us whats up.
By the way, a big heads up to watch out for false teachers who teach antichrist doctrines.

As a Calvinist I would say put the Bible above our squabbles. I am coming to believe that Calvinism takes a far backseat to loving and obeying God. God is certainly in control, but to me there seems to be much more to the Bible than that one doctrine.

As to your salvation, not everyone has a light bulb moment. From what we can see from the apostles, Paul's conversion was relatively dramatic, but the rest, particularly Peter, though they left everything, they also came to believe in Christ's mission over time. I am pretty confident in my salvation, despite my great sinfulness and never having had a flash of light. Perhaps think of what is different since you've been saved? Mine would have to be episodes of feeling close to God in prayer, and Him gradually changing me from who I once was.

sdowney717 said:

It matters nothing what a persons conscience says about excusing their sins before God.
All the matters is if a person is in Christ or not.
People will excuse themselves to God, blame anything or anyone but themselves for their sins.

There is no salvation, no other name whereby we must be saved except the name of Jesus Christ, and in that passage, it says
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

and Jesus already told us whats up.
By the way, a big heads up to watch out for false teachers who teach antichrist doctrines.

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A person does not just get into Christ by some kind of forced regeneration. A person gets into Christ by repenting of their sins with a Godly sorrow for salvation. No doubt, we probably do not agree on what repentance is. However, here is....


My Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness"
(Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):


Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”


Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."


#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"


#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?


#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).


#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).


#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."


#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.


#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,


"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).


In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.


#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).


#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?


#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):


"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).


13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).


Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

sdowney717 said:

Ok, I did not know that you dont believe in Christ as the only way to the Father that explains a lot.
Jesus said He was the way truth and life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him.
In His name is preached the forgiveness of sins, I would council you to repent of your unbelief in Christ and confess him as the only Lord and Savior of your soul, and not fall back on relying on some excusing of conscience supposedly God the Father will do for those who do not believe in the gospel of Christ.

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Who said I don't believe Christ is the only way to the Father? I merely said what the scripture reported in Romans 2: 14-16. Or maybe you can explain exactly what, their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) means. If their conscience accuses them that means GUILT. If it doesn't when their judged that means they have excuse. Your turn...what do you say it means?

akmom said:

I was at one point. Matthew 13:5-6 resonates with me, because that's what I feel happened. When my pastor references this verse, he counts these among the unelect.

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Don't listen to him. To fall away means exactly that. You cannot fall away from something that you never had. For why would one of the seeds receive the Word with joy if they are the unelect?

As for your suggesting that this part of the Parable has happened to you: Well, as long as you never denied Jesus as your Savior (after coming to Him), you are free to come back to the faith or the Lord Jesus by repentance (i.e. By seeking the Lord's forgiveness). I would encourage you to check out this mini comic book here (to help with that):

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0085/0085_01.asp

I hope this helps;
And may God's love shine upon you today.

Jason0047 said:

Don't listen to him. To fall away means exactly that. You cannot fall away from something that you never had. For why would they receive the Word with joy if they are the unelect?

As for your suggesting that this part of the Parable has happened to you: Well, as long as you never denied Jesus as your Savior (after coming to Him), you are free to come back to the faith or the Lord Jesus by repentance (i.e. By seeking the Lord's forgiveness). I would encourage you to check out this mini comic book here:

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0085/0085_01.asp

I hope this helps;
And may God's love shine upon you today.

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We can consider how Peter, being already cleansed by the Word, and already knowing Jesus was the Christ!... nevertheless (Peter) denied Christ. Yet, Peter could repent and be forgiven.

So, it's not that a believer can't return if they denied Christ, but that this is a serious sin of which they need to contritely confess, true repentance of having done, so that they are forgiven, and restored. Believers can do serious wrongs, but if they then confess, they are wonderfully cleansed of unrighteousness (1 John chapter 1). It's amazing grace.

Halbhh said:

We can consider how Peter, being already cleansed by the Word, and already knowing Jesus was the Christ!... nevertheless (Peter) denied Christ. Yet, Peter could repent and be forgiven.

So, it's not that a believer can't return if they denied Christ, but that this is a serious sin of which they need to contritely confess, true repentance of having done, so that they are forgiven, and restored. Believers can do serious wrongs, but if they then confess, they are wonderfully cleansed of unrighteousness (1 John chapter 1). It's amazing grace.

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I really wish that were so. I do. I really do. Nothing would please me more. But the Word says otherwise, my friend. Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy or the rejection of Jesus Christ as One's Savior. The context is Hebrews 3 that says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12).

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward." (Hebrews 10:35).

As for Peter denying Christ: Well, Peter did not fulfill the conditions for apostasy in Hebrews 6:4-6. Yes, he denied Christ, but he did not fully know the scope of Christ's death and resurrection and he did not have the Holy Ghost yet. If he did, surely he would not be forgiven.

Only if a believer backslides into sin, can they come back to the faith or to Jesus (See James 5:19-20). Unfortunately, denying Jesus as one's Savior (after one has had the Holy Spirit, and they had been once enlightened, etc.) is unforgivable (According to Hebrews 6:4-6).

akmom said:

I wish. There's a disconnect here. I feel like we speak different languages, and like many of the responses on here, I just don't get it.

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That's fair, but what is keeping you from talking about your thinking with the pastor?

That is part of his job and, as I said before, your concerns have been the concerns of many other people before you, so its not as though he is going to be dumbfounded either that you asked or by what it is that you are asking.

akmom said:

I was at one point. Matthew 13:5-6 resonates with me, because that's what I feel happened. When my pastor references this verse, he counts these among the unelect.

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So did you fall away? What happened after that point that you would say you were saved? Was there any discipling?

I don't believe that someone who's truly been saved can lose their salvation.

I wouldn't presume to tell anyone they're saved. But what I would do is instead of worrying about election, think about this:

5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. (2 Corinthians 13:5, ESV)