Are We Really Saved?

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FOMWatts<><

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Today at 01:22 PM undead said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685293#post685293)

What's hard to understand is the following:

You have an unbeliever. He hears the gospel. He repents. He attends a church. He becomes subjected to doctrinal error, and the persons about him are worldly. He thinks he has repented enough. He sees no need to further repent, even though his life is in many aspects, worldly, impure, and his doctrine, corrupt.

What is his position? Because a lot of people are in this position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. "

His situation becomes one of another theological question...DO YOU BELIEVE GOD WILL HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS WE DO NOT KNOW IS WRONG?

My personal belief is no. If we become knowledgable of sin and continue to do it anyway then we run into another problem, the inability to stop sinning, which I believe we all have. The Bible calls this "FLESH". Paul talks about two parts of him the spirit and his flesh and he asks what is going to save him form the flesh and then he goes on to thank God for Christ. Sin is a hardship, but one we can get through with the Power God provides us with.

Also the scenario you mentioned above is lacking another element that leads to truth, the Bible. That is why we are encouraged to fill our minds with God's word, to keep us from straying into paths that lead to darkness. if the guy in your example were reading his copy of the instruction manual, he may sin, but eventual he will read that it doe snot please God to continually sin as it mentions in 1 John.

Blessings,

I'll write more later, but I'm sleepy , hehehehe!!!

FOMWatts<><
 
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Today at 04:48 AM FOMWatts<>< said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686422#post686422)

His situation becomes one of another theological question...DO YOU BELIEVE GOD WILL HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS WE DO NOT KNOW IS WRONG?


Of course, if the man died without having the opportunity to ascertain all those things which he did was wrong, then he will not be judged. But what does Christ say:

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

My personal belief is no. If we become knowledgable of sin and continue to do it anyway then we run into another problem, the inability to stop sinning, which I believe we all have. The Bible calls this "FLESH". Paul talks about two parts of him the spirit and his flesh and he asks what is going to save him form the flesh and then he goes on to thank God for Christ. Sin is a hardship, but one we can get through with the Power God provides us with.

Also the scenario you mentioned above is lacking another element that leads to truth, the Bible. That is why we are encouraged to fill our minds with God's word, to keep us from straying into paths that lead to darkness. if the guy in your example were reading his copy of the instruction manual, he may sin, but eventual he will read that it doe snot please God to continually sin as it mentions in 1 John.

It is my opinion that the believer has to take responsibility for his ignorance. He has the bible. He has no excuse for being ignorant. He has no excuse for false doctrine, though he may have for a short while, but not over a long period of time.

I believe Rev 2,3 are a salulatory reminder to all believers that they will be judged on their works and not on the basis of their knowledge on doctrines like predestination.

Ultimately, I believe that Rev 2,3 assigns the responsibility for a believer's ignorance onto his own shoulders.
 
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calvinist

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Gee, has anyone ever heard of grace? I praise God for doctrines like predestination because without it, without the unconditional election of God, I would have rejected Him and gone to hell. Praise God, but He chose me and nobody and nothing, including my own ignorance, can take me out of God's hand. Grace, Grace, God's grace, Grace that can pardon and cleanse within, Grace, Grace, Marvelous grace, Grace that is GREATER THAN ALL OUR SIN.
Delighting in God's UNCONDITIONAL Election and Preservation of the Saints,
Calvinist
 
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FOMWatts<><

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Calvinist,

May I recommend reading Ephods post in Rejected Christ after Salvation, it is quite a good post! Draws perspective, at least from me, to see the fine lines of what we believe to be true. Anyway, just thought I'de drop by to say hello!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<>< :pray:
 
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endure

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wipeout,

it isnt as cut and dry as you are making it appear.

yes if one has faith in God, and is saved, then he will produce fruit.
and if one is not producing good fruit, then it means he is not a good tree and means he is not right with God.

in no way am i saying a christian can sin and remain a christian or say hes a christian, becuase sin reaps death even in the grace covered life acording to romans 6.

but also,
you cannot say that becuase a person sins, it means he was never a christian or never had faith in God.

you are only looking on the surface, there is a deeper activity that must be observed, and that is aparent in the life of every christian that has ever lived in my opinion.

we got saved, we believed, and yet we still sinned again.
but does it mean we never really got saved? no way, or else there is really no way to be saved.

i used to look at scriptures that told of how a true christian WOULD do things. and saw how i loved God with all my heart and was a christian the best i knew how to be, and didnt do those things, and it condemned me and scared me.

but if it is true that a true christian cannot and will not ever sin again, and if one does, it means they were never saved, then i do not know how to be saved. becuase ive done everything the bible says to be saved, yet ive sinned since then.

but read 1 john 2.1
...these things i write unto you, that ye sin not...
(hes telling us to not sin, and how to not sin, hes talking to christians)
...AND if anyman sin...
(a person who has been born again, can still sin, not that he WILL, but he CAN, and it does not mean he wasnt ever born again or john shouldnt be telling this to christians)

the bible teaches of christian casting off their first faith, in timothy. casting off the trust in faith in jesus, in galations. and going back to sin in many books of the bible. and over and over the apostles and jesus wrote unto christians that THEY SHOULD NOT SIN.
never did any of our leaders have the thinking that a christian cannot sin, or that if they did they were never saved, becuase they exhorted christians not to sin.

if a christian can cast off his first faith, and leave the faith.
him being born again and walking uprightly with the lord at one time, is no guarantee to anyone that he always will.

becuase even though we are saved, the flesh is still present in our lives, and it has the ability, if its given place, to produce unbelief.
the bible says in galations 5 that the flesh hinders the spirit and keeps it from doing as it wills.
also in galations it says the child of faith, was persecruted by the child of the flesh.
the simple fact is, our flesh causes unbelief.
and no matter how much we believe now, if we do not keep our flesh held down and captive, it will produce unbelief in us.
this can happen in anyones life, saved or unsaved, becuase the flesh is never taken from us.
and it is not something that automaticly held down, but only by the personal actions of reading and praying and putting ourselves before the lord daily and giving our spirits provision, and none to our flesh.
their are actions we must do, in order for what God does in us to have effect.
thats why the galations were able to make christ OF NO EFFECT to them.
 
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eldermike

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I believe it's necessary and useful in understanding salvation that we remember the purpose of salvation. We sometimes get trapped into a thinking pattern that gives the purpose of salvation as something for us, for our purposes and good. That is not the biblical reason at all. We did not ask to be created and were not created for our good, nor were we saved for our good. We were created for a purpose and saved for the same reason. In God's economy a persons fruit might not measure up to our understanding of fruit, however, God uses people for His purposes and in His timing and in His methods. We were commanded to love each other, not love only the ones that measure up by our standards. Judging salvation is a tricky business, best left to a perfect being.
 
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endure

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but judging or discerning something, has nothing to do with love.
love for a person doesnt&nbsp;change your ability to recognise the nature of a person. a person can be wrong and you know it and even tell them their wrong, but that has nothing to do with love.

jesus' said wed know them be their fruits, if we cant know them then he shouldnt have said this, and if fruits dont mean anything than he shouldnt have said this.
i love sinners, but that doesnt make me&nbsp;think they may be saved.
you can rebuke a man out of love.
love has nothing to do with your discernment of a mans nature.
people say you cant judge, but you must love.

i agree you cant&nbsp;punish or condemn, but you can discern, anyone with an intellect can.&nbsp;
but our love for a person does not effect our ability to discern something or tell us its wrong to discern something.
 
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Just note the following things Jesus said:

Matt 7:15-23 NIV "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A GOOD TREE CANNOT BEAR BAD FRUIT, AND A BAD TREE CANNOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT. EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE. Thus by their fruit will you recognize them. Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. Many will come to me on that day and say 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"


And any of you use the flesh as an excuse to sin, read Romans 8:1-17 KJV.
If after you read it you still feel justified, READ IT AGAIN SLOWLY.
If even after that you feel justified to go on sinning, please tell me how then you can reason that so I may be enlightened as to how I may go on sinning and feel justified. Cause right now I'm REALLY convicted of sin and that I need to repent, and STOP sinning.
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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"I've been thinking that maybe we should humble ourselves with mourning, prayer, and fasting in order to recieve God's grace, which is the faith we so earnestly covet."

This is confusing the wilikers out of me, because right after this you proceed to quote Eph. 2:8-9.

The first sentence says that we must do good works in order to receive faith. And faith is necessary for salvation. So basically you're saying works are required for salvation?

Perhaps a little discussion over another topic is pending. Now, I like to sum this up in 5 points... ;)
 
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Is it not written "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble"?

FAITH CREATES AN ACTION!!!
WE ARE DEAD WITHOUT FAITH!!!

GOD'S GRACE GIVES FAITH.

Why do I bother. Everyone I ever talk to seems aptly content to remain in sin. No one seems to want to take up their cross and die to themselves(crucify the flesh), and live for God.
 
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Philo

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Wipeout, brother...&nbsp; What concern is it whether we are "saved" or not.&nbsp; Salvation is the Lord's judgement of righteousness.&nbsp; I implore you, instead of worrying so much about the legalist semantics of those who are saved and those who are not, to take into account the words of our Lord and Saviour...&nbsp; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you love one another."

Do not be proud or haughty in your own estimation.&nbsp; Humility is amazing.&nbsp; If you believe you have found an edifying interpretation of scripture, then by all means share it.&nbsp; But it does no good saying "Why do I bother. Everyone I ever talk to seems aptly content to remain in sin. No one seems to want to take up their cross and die to themselves(crucify the flesh), and live for God."&nbsp; If Jesus had taken that approach, we would all be in quite a pickle.

I exort you to love God as he loved us, even as we were sinners.&nbsp; Love your fellow human beings, as God would.&nbsp; You know there are two Laws upon which all the Laws and Commandments hinge...&nbsp; And, we can assume there are two sins, upon which all else rest: Not loving the Lord God with all your heart, all your spirit, all your body, and all your soul; and not loving your neighbor as yourself.

Be concerned with your spiritual welfare.&nbsp; The Law was nailed to the cross, as were your sins if you choose to accept the perfect salvation of Jesus Christ.&nbsp; You will sin.&nbsp; You won't want to.&nbsp; But you will.&nbsp; We see now through a mirror, darkly.&nbsp; We cannot yet abide in the full glory of God.&nbsp; But, we can allow ourselves to be filled with His saving Grace, and love him as he first loved us.

Remember, you are only responsible for asking for salvation.&nbsp; Christ has already taken the responsibility of atoning for your sins upon himself.

The Almighty Creator of the Cosmos clothed himself in flesh, was spat upon, humiliated,&nbsp;beaten beyond recognition, and ultimately suffocated after 6 hours of hanging by his hands off a piece of wood...&nbsp; And for what?&nbsp; So that, when finally you can see him face to face, he can say "I love you this much."

Just remember, only Christ could be Christ.&nbsp; You are under no such obligation.

Pax
 
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endure

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wipeout...

im sorry, you didnt get what i meant.
i promise you are not alone, I HATE SIN WITH EVERY ONCE OF SOUL I HAVE AND IF IT BE POSSIBLE I WILL NEVER SIN AGAIN! I PROMISE YOU, THERE IS NO LOVE IN ME FOR THIS FILTHY THING IN ME CALLED SIN. WHEN I SIN, I WEEP AND CRY OUT TO GOD, BECUASE I HATE IT WITH A PASSION THAT I CANNOT SPEAK TO YOU!
i burn like a molten furnace in my deep hatred for sin... i really do.
there is an awful, terrible hatred in side of me, i hate sin with a passion, i loath it....
and if one asks "can we stop sinning?"&nbsp; i will be the first to stand and say, YES I CAN STOP SINNING AND I WILL! and i have made entire posts and lengthy teachings about why we CAN stop sinning, and how to do that.

all i was saying is that sometimes we allow the flesh to come back, and this causes unbelief, and it doesnt mean we werent saved.
im just saying that you sinning, doesnt mean you werent saved.

im not saying any christian is still supposed to sin.
GOD FORBID, no we are not supposed to sin, and i am yet believing, some of us will stop sinning, man im with ya, i love your heart of devotion and flame for God, im with ya.

as paul said, Christ died that the body of sin might be destroyed. AND SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER US! and that its an unfit thing, for us who are dead to sin, to continue therein.
thats all in romans.

i will die to myself, and cease to sin.

but i dont know how yet, there is much more toit than our own motivation. becuase something ive learned is that no motivation will stay, if you do not know how to control your flesh.
the flesh causes unbelief and all manner of evil desire inside you. you cannot simply motivate yourself to stop sinning or simply believe it into happening, the flesh will kill both of those. and you have to learn the strategies to overcome your flesh, and it takes more than faith and motivation.

paul said this also, "let us leave the basic principles, and go on unto perfection"
yes we can reach perfection, and mature in Christ, and stop sinning.
but it doesnt happen in a day. you have to learn the basics first, and then go on from there, we have to learn how to do this.
YOU CANNOT BE OR DO, WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW
many fall and say "well i didnt know that....."
but you must learn.
or else were like paul said in corinthians, just beating our fists in the air....
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Yesterday at 06:43 AM wipeout said this in Post #30

Is it not written "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble"?

FAITH CREATES AN ACTION!!!
WE ARE DEAD WITHOUT FAITH!!!

GOD'S GRACE GIVES FAITH.

Why do I bother. Everyone I ever talk to seems aptly content to remain in sin. No one seems to want to take up their cross and die to themselves(crucify the flesh), and live for God.

wipeout, are you saying something about my relationship with God, implying that I'm immoral in comparison with YOUR lifestyle?&nbsp; If you've got something to say, then please say it.&nbsp;

I wonder why people feel as if they can earn salvation, and is if they are GOOD enough to earn salvation.

That verse about opposing the proud and exalting the humble... I should be posting that.&nbsp; We are content in Christ's death, and if you think that means that we're all immoral hypocrites, then you're missing out on the blessings of a genuine relationship with Christ.&nbsp;&nbsp;TTYL Jesus lvoes you!
 
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FOMWatts<><

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Also...if we are able to stop sinning, I want what you are having, cuz I fall. Plain and simple, I do not ENJOY falling, but I do fall, and I have complete confidence that God knew that I was going to fall, and He is right there to catch me. I would venture to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to stop sinning completely. I would agree that Christians are convicted of sin and the repent and turn form their sin, but there will ALWAYS be another one for us to fall into. The idea you guys propose of being able to stop sinning is making a lot of new or less knowledgeable Christians doubt their salvation, and that is sad. REALLY sad.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><
 
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settergren

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endure,

If we can, in our human efforts, never sin, then we would not need a savior to die for our sins. Christ has died for our sins, yet we still sin. This sin doesn't RULE (have dominon) over us in the sense that this sin will not ultimately seperate us from God since he has cleansed us of all unrighteousness. We still sin, yes, but God has made us innocent and made Christ guilty instead. We still have sin, but we are off the hook. That's why Christ is called a savior. That's why Christ died on the cross.

We can and do constantly sin. Period. Paul, the apostle, a great man of God, whom the Holy Spirit inspired to write&nbsp;SCRIPTURE,&nbsp;even struggled mightly with sin. Imagine Paul struggling while the likes of us are running around being perfect sinless beings. NO WAY!!! NO CHANCE!!!!

Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength!!!!! Are you telling me that you can stand before God and say that you have done this perfectly???!?!??!? Then great, He could have spared his son and let YOU die for the sins of everyone else!!!! NO WAY, only Christ is without sin!!!!! Only Christ is the spotless lamb who is a sacrifice for us!!!!

TO SAY THAT YOU OR ANYONE CAN REFRAIN ENTIRELY FROM SINNING IS TO SAY, ESSENTIALLY, THAT YOU CAPABLE OF ACHIEVING SALVATION WITHOUT CHRIST, WITCH IS EQUIVALENT TO SAVING YOURSELVES!
 
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endure

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sorry,
neither of you ever gave me any scripture to prove your beliefs to me, so i hope you understand, that as the bible student i am, i dont really listen to what you have to say, but i can answer all your questions very easily.

fomwatts,

you ask what salvation is good for is we can stop sinning.
(i do mean that we can STOP sinning, not that we could have never sinned)
salvation is what allows us to do this, salvation is the thing in which we are provided redemption and power and transformation, so that we can stop sinning and cast off our filthy ways.
being able to stop sinning, is by no means saying we dont need salvation. becuase salvation is how you doit.

this is told of in romans 6.1-6
...how shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?...know ye not that as many of us as were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? therefor we are buried with him&nbsp;by baptism into death" THAT LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED UP FROM THE DEAD BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, EVEN SO WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.

(this is not speaking of our ressurection, but of sin, our lives as christians must be like Jesus' death. he died, and lived again in a new life. we must die (we are dead when born again) and then live again in newness of life without sin)

v6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED, THAT HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.

(our old man or flesh is dead with him, SO SIN CAN BE DESTROYED, and this does not mean sin no longer kills us when we commit it, it means WE SHOULD NO LONGER SERVE SIN. when the bible refers to being free from sin, it isnt becuase sin no longer kills us, its becuase we no longer are bound in slavery to commit sins)

for it says,
6.14
...SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU!
you are not bound to keep sinning.

so being able to stop sinning doesnt take away the need for salvation, becuase its through the salvation change that we are made able to destroy sin in our lives.&nbsp;

well, i dont want to sound proud, and to the be honest with you, i havent stopped sinning, but i am learning more and more that it is possible by the scriptures&nbsp;i have posted and many others. i dont know it all yet, there is much about this process that i dont know, and that i have yet to do, but im getting there, sin is depleting from my life. i can tell you this honestly, sin is no where near what it use to be with me, and becuase of what i read in the bible of how&nbsp;i can and should stop sinning, i hope that one day&nbsp;i do, and truely believe&nbsp;i can.
maybe that sounds weak, but im not here to impress people.
i do still sin, and i hate it, but no matter what, when i sin, God always shows me why i did and instructs me how to stop.
i am going on unto perfection.

it shouldnt make a christian doubt their salvation and i do not believe it does.
i know men of God that i stand in awe of. and it doesnt make me feel bad, when you really get around something of God that is so much greater than yourself, all you can is say YESSSSS!! I HAVE TO HAVE IT!!! and you cant spend enough time with those people... becuase something in you connects with them and cries out for it.
i dont believe it would condemn anyone, i believe it would stir a undescribable desire to be like that. as being in the presence of great men always does.

settergreen
no, when the bible speaks of sin not having dominion over us, it doesnt say its becuase we arent punished becuase of the blood, it says its because:

rom 6.14
sin shall not have dominion over you...
v15
know ye&nbsp;not that to whom ye yeild yourselves servants to obey...

its speaking of our actions, that is what it is refering to, we are freed from sinful actions, not simply punishment for sin.

PAUL DID NOT STRUGGLE GREATLY WITH SIN!
this is one of the biggest fallicies of false teachers.
and the chapter they use the most is romans ch 7.
and how he did things he didnt want to, and how it was sin in him.
but read romans 8.1
there is therefor NOW no condemnation...

the last part of romans ch 7 is speaking of pauls past, a time when he was bound in sin. but if you read romans 8 it says that now he is free from the law of sin and death.
read v 4
THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULLFILLED IN US, WHO "WALK".....
(SPEAKING OF BODILY ACTION)
...NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

it says that if we walk in the spirit, live our lives in the spirit, we can fullfill the righteousness of the law.

read also in romans 8.12-14
therefor brethren we are debtors not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. for if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the spirit do mortify the DEEDS of the body, ye shall live.

walking in the spirit, is not simply being free to sin and not die, it means to stop commiting fleshly deeds and the evil deeds of this body, so how can say that Jesus set us free from sin, but that it doesnt refer to us ceasing to sin? becuase thats what it is always talking about.

paul wasnt bound in sin, but actually he was free&nbsp;from sin and was a holy man.
1&nbsp;thess 2.10
ye are witnesses and God also, how HOLILY and JUSTLY and UNBLAMEABLY&nbsp;we behaved ourselves amoung you...

Paul was HOLY, he was JUST and he was UNBLAMEABLE.
he was not bound in sin. he did not struggle greatly with sin as many say he did.

ok,
you say that Christ is the only one who can live without sin.
but we are called to be like Christ and to act as he did. how could this be if we really never can?

1 tim 4.15,16
but if i tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh...

we know how we ought to behave ourselves and be GODLY,&nbsp;by examples of Jesus Christ, it may be a great mystery to some, but we have it revealed to us in the life of Jesus and the word of God.

you say that only Christ can be spotless, and we are flithy...

well, the bible says in 2 corinthians 7.1
that even WE can,
"...cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING HOLINESS IN THE FEAR OF GOD."

so yes we human beings, through Christs work in us, can clean ourselves from ALL filth, and walk PERFECTLY HOLY before God.

plus,
most people say no one can be perfect,
well, there is a "perfection" in Jesus Christ that cleanses you from all sin, where you are fully mature and grown up in Christ, though this doesnt mean your equal with God.

the biggest scripture ive ever heard used to say we cant be perfect is phillipians 3.12-13
not as though i had already attained, either were already perfect: but i follow after...
brethren i count myself not to have apprehended, but this one thing i do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

many say that proves that even paul wasnt free of sin, but he just strived for godliness anyway.

that isnt what that means.
phillipians 3.15
LET US THEREFOR AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, be thus minded...

there are 2 diffrent kinds of perfection.
1. THE PERFECTION HE HAD NOT ATTAINED.
PERFECTION = TELEIOO
"to make a full end, finish, fullfill"
THIS IS SIMPLY REFERING TO NOT BEING IN HIS COMPLETE AND GLORIFIED STATE WHICH WE WILL RECEIVE IN HEAVON

2. THE PERFECTION SOME HAD OBTAINED.
PERFECTION = TELEIOS
MEANING MATURE, COMPLETE, FULL GROWN,&nbsp; NOT AS LITTLE CHILDREN BUT AS MEN. the full grown mature christian that is not bound by sin.there is a perfect state we can become as christians still on the earth.

hebrews 6.1
therefor leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, LET US GO ON UNTO PERFECTION, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works...

let us go on and be perfect, not still commiting dead works that need to be repented for.

im sorry, you show me any other way to intepret scripture and&nbsp;i will...
 
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FOMWatts<><

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:clap: I think it is great that you wish to never sin again, and that it is depleting from your life, BUT I'm afraid it is something that you will never accomplish on this earth.

We live in the flesh, therefore we are comprised of sin itself. We are holy and blameless in God's sight, but only because when He looks at us HE SEES CHRIST...WHEN we accept Christ as our Savior...

Ephesians 1:

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[3] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[4] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[5] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

If you think Paul did not struggle with sin you are greatly mistaken with your Biblical history and the entire concept of Christianity. The idea is not perfection but strife for such and also faith in Christ Jesus. Paul in Romans chapter7...


Romans 7

1Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?...

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Struggling With Sin

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul says in verse 1 that man is bound to sin all the days of his life, but then he tells us that we die to sin when we are found in Christ. So yes we can stop sinning as far as God is conscerned, when we accept Christ God no longer sees sin in us, but He sees our faith in His atoning sacrifice Jesus. We die to sin, but this only means that we are no longer under the law, but under grace. He explains this well in His letter to the Ephesians.

I find it great that you wish to stop sinning, and I wish you luck, but to stop sinning would be to prove the Bible wrong, and I do not see that happening. Peace and blessings to you!

FOMWatts<><:pray:
 
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Wipeout - I understand the point you are trying to make but I think we can go too far if we are not careful.&nbsp; The verse you have in mind says this, "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)&nbsp; The key word here is "practices".&nbsp; Someone who 'practices' sin is someone who continues to live knowingly and willfully in sin without repentance.&nbsp; This is certainly not speaking of the day to day sin that you and I commit.&nbsp; Verse 9 says, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in Him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."&nbsp; Again, those who are born of God will not continue in blatant, unrepentant sin.&nbsp; To say that we are not capable of sinning once we have come to know Christ would be a gross overstatement.

We must keep the two thoughts being presented on this thread in balance.&nbsp; There are scriptures that would indicate that it is possible and even expected for us to STOP sinning.&nbsp; But to carry this to its extreme would cause one to become arrogant and unreliant on God.&nbsp; It could also become a stumbling block to others.&nbsp; On the other hand, to carry the mindset that we can NEVER achieve the holiness or righteousness that God requires of us could cause one to give up on their attempt to become righteous.&nbsp; Why should I strive so hard after something I will never achieve?&nbsp; If God doesn't expect it from me, why should I try so hard?

Our battle with sin continues in our flesh.&nbsp; This is why, at our conversion something began in us called 'sanctification'.&nbsp; Sanctification is a process, not a one time event.&nbsp; We cannot achieve God's expected righteousness on our power.&nbsp; This was the primary purpose of the Holy Spirit's presence in every believer; to empower Christians to grow in grace and become "holy as God is holy".&nbsp; If it were not possible for this to happen, then God would never have commanded it.&nbsp; The idea is this: God has given us the call.&nbsp; He&nbsp;chose us&nbsp;so that we would be holy and blameless before Him (Eph 1:4).&nbsp; That should be our goal.&nbsp; Every day of our Christian life is spent doing the things necessary to reach this goal, always understanding that we grow towards that goal by the power of God's Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Most of us will probably meet the Lord before we actually attain this, however, that thought in no way should cause us to cease striving for it.&nbsp; Nothing less than God's holiness should ever satisfy.

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