Predestination

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

bcbsr said:
Show me where I said that "calvinist denies we receive Christ as Lord". Or are you bearing false witness against me?

Didn't ignore it. Just didn't find it relevant.

That applies to you as well, right?

As for John 6:43-45 it makes no mention of being born of God. And so doesn't speak to the subject of the order of faith and being born of God. Therefore not relevant. However as it does say, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.", realize that's teaching synergism, contrary to the monergism of Calvinism. Learning involves cooperation, as opposed to the anti-free will fatalistic puppet theology of Calvinism.

No synergism until first born of God, then yes we respond positively to the message of the gospel. There is no possible negative response to the gospel if you are born of God, the resistance has been removed. The carnal mind is at enmity with God and can not be submitted to God.

Just like Peter responds to Christ we have come to know and believe that you are the Christ. In john 6:
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

But without God granting them to come to Christ and believe in Christ, Peter could not have said what he said. You can not say Jesus is LORD except by the HOLY SPIRIT!
So God is in control of eternal life and who gets to believe and who does not.

Here is another relevant scripture, Luke 10. You will not know God and Christ, unless Christ wills for you to know them, pure simple, the grace of God is required to believe in God and to have a relationship with God. If Christ does not will that for a person, they will not know, and if He wills that they know Him, then they will believe in Him. This decision is independent of the will of the man.
And this knowing them is revealed to BABES, so then newborn babes in Christ , you must be born again first!, or you will never know God and Christ.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Small Fish · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Do you mean the doctrines of Christ?

I agree with predestination and cannot deny it's very Scriptural. As far as I can see this is what Calvin tought. Yet whenever he is mentioned, it's hard to ignore all the negative comments. So, who is he and what exactly did he teach and why is he so disliked?

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

Small Fish said:
I agree with predestination and cannot deny it's very Scriptural. As far as I can see this is what Calvin tought. Yet whenever he is mentioned, it's hard to ignore all the negative comments. So, who is he and what exactly did he teach and why is he so disliked?

For them that dislike Calvin, this is because of human emotions at work in the imaginations of men of what scripture says. And people get hardened into their theology. Once that hardening is set, it is only God who can break someone out from their error by an act of God. It is only God who grants repentance.

Jesus also spoke to his disciples about hardening, if you are hardened it means you will not understand a spiritual truth and even oppose it. Paul said of opponents of God, that they have been captured by the devil to do His will and only God can grant them repentance to know the truth. Jesus opened the minds of His disciples to comprehend the scriptures.

Mark 8:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have no bread.”

17 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened? 18 Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember?

HTacianas · Aug 14, 2018

Dave L said:
If God wrote the names of the saved in the book of life before the foundation of the world, how can a random act or accident ever keep them from being born and coming to Christ?

They can have their names blotted out.

Exodus 32:33
Rev 3:5

Kersh · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

I would suggest that you consider a new church. If you are theologically Baptist, then you might look at a Free Will Baptist Church. Also, the Southern Baptist Convention is fairly evenly divided on the issue, so an SBC church might work for you too, but you'd want to talk to the pastor to gauge his soteriology. If you're not attached to Baptist theology, then perhaps try a Wesleyan or Nazarene congregation or a Christian Church or Community Christian Church, which come out of the Restoration movement, which minimizes debatable theological issues.

Ultimately, if your pastor's preaching is causing you to wonder if it is even possible for you to be saved, you are under dangerous leadership, and it's time to move on.

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

Kersh said:
I would suggest that you consider a new church. If you are theologically Baptist, then you might look at a Free Will Baptist Church. Also, the Southern Baptist Convention is fairly evenly divided on the issue, so an SBC church might work for you too, but you'd want to talk to the pastor to gauge his soteriology. If you're not attached to Baptist theology, then perhaps try a Wesleyan or Nazarene congregation or a Christian Church or Community Christian Church, which come out of the Restoration movement, which minimizes debatable theological issues.

Ultimately, if your pastor's preaching is causing you to wonder if it is even possible for you to be saved, you are under dangerous leadership, and it's time to move on.

Calvinism instead of complicating salvation or making one wonder if they are saved, teaches the opposite. Scriptures says your belief is granted to you by the Father, you are saved by His grace because He made you a new creation in Christ according to His will for you. If you believe in Christ, then you are elect. Calvinism simply exposes these truths. If salvation was entirely synergistic, then your salvation depends on you and your performance. Scripture says for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And you are not your own, you were bought at a price, so then a purchased possession and after you believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise as a guarantee of your eternal inheritance.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Philippians 1
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Kersh · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Calvinism instead of complicating salvation or making one wonder if they are saved, teaches the opposite. Scriptures says your belief is granted to you by the Father, you are saved by His grace because He made you a new creation in Christ according to His will for you. If you believe in Christ, then you are elect. Calvinism simply exposes these truths. If salvation was entirely synergistic, then your salvation depends on you and your performance. Scripture says for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And you are not your own, you were bought at a price, so then a purchased possession and after you believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise as a guarantee of your eternal inheritance.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Philippians 1
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

I thoroughly disagree with you, but I am not sure that this is the appropriate place to expound on that. What I see is a person who is being convinced that she is beyond saving. When someone is struggling with these doubts the type of teaching that she is receiving, whether you or I agree or disagree with it, is dangerous. If Calvinism is correct and if she is elect, then perhaps she will find that salvation in a church that embraces a more Arminian/Wesleyan soteriology. If, as I believe, Calvinism is wrong on this one point, then it is better that she be in a church that teaches a more Arminian/Wesleyan soteriology. Either way, I stand by my prior post.

wonderkins · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

I'm curious what you mean when you say you've been seeking God for 20+ years. Have you been saved? Or have you spent 20 years trying to get saved?

I admit the subject of election is difficult to grasp. But I don't feel it is something to lose sleep over. We can't fully understand it, sort of like we can't understand that God has existed for all eternity with no beginning.

There are convincing arguments on both sides of the topic. It may be better to accept that the Bible teaches both.

I'm reading a book with my pastor right now called The Death Christ Died by Robert Lightner. He discusses both sides very effectively. It isn't a long book, but it can be difficult.

Small Fish · Aug 14, 2018

Kersh said:
I thoroughly disagree with you, but I am not sure that this is the appropriate place to expound on that. What I see is a person who is being convinced that she is beyond saving. When someone is struggling with these doubts the type of teaching that she is receiving, whether you or I agree or disagree with it, is dangerous. If Calvinism is correct and if she is elect, then perhaps she will find that salvation in a church that embraces a more Arminian/Wesleyan soteriology. If, as I believe, Calvinism is wrong on this one point, then it is better that she be in a church that teaches a more Arminian/Wesleyan soteriology. Either way, I stand by my prior post.

So for argument sake, what if she is not elected? Like, Judas, Esau or Cain. What is the point of arguing the Word of God and living a lie. Shouldn't we rather say "Thy will be done"? Would it not be better to come into obedience of God and accept His ways than for our own feelings deny His Truth? After all, predestination is Scriptural. Wont God have more respect for this attitude? Instead of rebelling His Word?

Just say, "I'll serve Him anyhow, though God slay me, I'll trust Him!"?

bcbsr · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
No synergism until first born of God, then yes we respond positively to the message of the gospel. There is no possible negative response to the gospel if you are born of God, the resistance has been removed. The carnal mind is at enmity with God and can not be submitted to God.

Just like Peter responds to Christ we have come to know and believe that you are the Christ. In john 6:
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

But without God granting them to come to Christ and believe in Christ, Peter could not have said what he said. You can not say Jesus is LORD except by the HOLY SPIRIT!
So God is in control of eternal life and who gets to believe and who does not.

Here is another relevant scripture, Luke 10. You will not know God and Christ, unless Christ wills for you to know them, pure simple, the grace of God is required to believe in God and to have a relationship with God. If Christ does not will that for a person, they will not know, and if He wills that they know Him, then they will believe in Him. This decision is independent of the will of the man.
And this knowing them is revealed to BABES, so then newborn babes in Christ , you must be born again first!, or you will never know God and Christ.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

You're simply reading into these verses what they don't actually say, while ignoring verses that speak explicitly of the matter, which I pointed out to you, and which you continue to ignore.

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

Kersh said:
I thoroughly disagree with you, but I am not sure that this is the appropriate place to expound on that. What I see is a person who is being convinced that she is beyond saving. When someone is struggling with these doubts the type of teaching that she is receiving, whether you or I agree or disagree with it, is dangerous. If Calvinism is correct and if she is elect, then perhaps she will find that salvation in a church that embraces a more Arminian/Wesleyan soteriology. If, as I believe, Calvinism is wrong on this one point, then it is better that she be in a church that teaches a more Arminian/Wesleyan soteriology. Either way, I stand by my prior post.

Only the elect will be saved. God foreknows His people, so if you believe you are elect, and if you are elect you will believe.
We were chosen in Him from the foundation of this world to belong to Christ.
As you align your mind with scripture, then you will understand more fully, it is God's purpose and will to save people from every tribe and nation and tongue and people group and that is exactly what happens. God's will regarding salvation He accomplishes on the earth. Jesus did tell us to pray thy will be done in heaven and earth. and God's will is done. God works all things according to the council of His will.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Kersh · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Only the elect will be saved. God foreknows His people, so if you believe you are elect, and if you are elect you will believe.
We were chosen in Him from the foundation of this world to belong to Christ.
As you align your mind with scripture, then you will understand more fully, it is God's purpose and will to save people from every tribe and nation and tongue and people group and that is exactly what happens. God's will regarding salvation He accomplishes on the earth. Jesus did tell us to pray thy will be done in heaven and earth. and God's will is done. God works all things according to the council of His will.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

This is faulty theology that I would love to discuss with you when I have time to do it thoroughly and properly. For the purposes of this thread and this moment in time, I will stick by what I've already said.

Kersh · Aug 14, 2018

Small Fish said:
So for argument sake, what if she is not elected? Like, Judas, Esau or Cain. What is the point of arguing the Word of God and living a lie. Shouldn't we rather say "Thy will be done"? Would it not be better to come into obedience of God and accept His ways than for our own feelings deny His Truth? After all, predestination is Scriptural. Wont God have more respect for this attitude? Instead of rebelling His Word?

Just say, "I'll serve Him anyhow, though God slay me, I'll trust Him!"?

Which is why I encourage her to attend a church that teaches "repent and believe", rather than a church that says, "you can't repent and believe unless you're part of the club".

But, that's all I'm going to say in this thread. I've spoken my peace and what was necessary for this thread. I hope someday soon to have more time to devote to discussing Calvinism and why I don't believe it is biblical. But, I don't have time right now to do it properly and charitably.

Halbhh · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there.

Exactly. Leave, and find a church that is instead teaching from the gospels and epistles generally, fully, and not some pet issue of one person. When you do, the first thing to look for in any new church you visit is what Christ said -- "By this everyone will know you are my disciples, if you love one another." Look and see if the people are generally doing more than politeness -- that they really are doing 'love one another' for real.

sdowney717 · Aug 14, 2018

You know I am so glad that God's purpose and will can be thwarted by the devil, demons or man.
What God has determined to do, He will do, regardless of your objections.
God has mercy and compassion on whom he will and whom He will He hardens.
In OT and NT, God says He does whatever He wills, and no one can tell Him what do you think your are doing!

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Isaiah 46
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Because man fell in the garden and transgressed against god, God is now in His right to do whatever He wishes with fallen mankind. God owns the souls of all men. Behold all souls are mine says the Lord, the soul that sins shall die.
It is only due to God's mercy and love for you individually that you came to be born of God and believe in Christ. He has given us an understanding to know what is true.

2 Peter 2
6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Small Fish · Aug 14, 2018

Kersh said:
Which is why I encourage her to attend a church that teaches "repent and believe", rather than a church that says, "you can't repent and believe unless you're part of the club".

But, that's all I'm going to say in this thread. I've spoken my peace and what was necessary for this thread. I hope someday soon to have more time to devote to discussing Calvinism and why I don't believe it is biblical. But, I don't have time right now to do it properly and charitably.

In Calvinisms defence. I don't think they say you cannot repent or believe. Faith is subconscious and is a gift from above. Nobody is stopping you from believing except if you don't have faith to begin with. I say stay with the Word first and foremost. This is exactly the problem with most Christians today. They want to change the Word to say what they want to believe instead of lining their thoughts up with the Word of God. This attitude will prove exactly just that, that election is off. That is unless you can repent. Or else just throw away your Bible because you don't believe it anyway. Christianity is about obedience to God's Word.

Halbhh · Aug 14, 2018

sdowney717 said:
You know I am so glad that God's purpose and will can be thwarted by the devil, demons or man.
What God has determined to do, He will do, regardless of your objections.
God has mercy and compassion on whom he will and whom He will He hardens.
In OT and NT, God says He does whatever He wills, and no one can tell Him what do you think your are doing!

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Isaiah 46
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Because man fell in the garden and transgressed against god, God is now in His right to do whatever He wishes with fallen mankind. God owns the souls of all men. Behold all souls are mine says the Lord, the soul that sins shall die.
It is only due to God's mercy and love for you individually that you came to be born of God and believe in Christ. He has given us an understanding to know what is true.

2 Peter 2
6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The instance of Pharaoh in Exodus, who's heart God hardened against Israel, is especially instructive...if a person does in fact read Exodus.

That is, reads in Exodus starting in chapter 1.

Then we find out what happens in chapter 1 before God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

What did Pharaoh do in chapter 1?
https://biblehub.com/niv/exodus/1.htm
(most know of the brutal slavery vaguely, but how many know of the decree for infanticide?)

We learn from the scripture, and so we are instructed -- we see how it makes sense God then hardened his heart, after the facts of chapter 1 had already shown who pharaoh was...

Albion · Aug 14, 2018

Halbhh said:
Exactly. Leave, and find a church that is instead teaching from the gospels and epistles generally, fully, and not some pet issue of one person. When you do, the first thing to look for in any new church you visit is what Christ said -- "By this everyone will know you are my disciples, if you love one another." Look and see if the people are generally doing more than politeness -- that they really are doing 'love one another' for real.

I thought about saying that, but the main thrust of the OP seemed to be that our friend just couldn't wrap her thinking around the message of the sermons. For that reason, leaving this church right now seems premature.

If she were firmly committed to the Arminian POV, it might be different, but at this stage, she is simply uncertain. Of course there is also the matter of the sermons being repetitious and therefore unfulfilling, but leaving for that reason alone is still something that ought to be done only as a last resort IMHO.

Phil 1:21 · Aug 14, 2018

akmom said:
The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Test all things; hold fast what is good.”

Acts 17:11 “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”

So here’s the thing: follow the advice above. Test what the preacher is saying via scripture. If he does not provide scriptural support during his sermon (as any good preacher should) ask him for it and study it to see if it supports what he is teaching. Just because a teaching is unpopular doesn’t mean it’s incorrect. Just because people leave a church over a certain position doesn’t mean the church is wrong.

2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

The truth of God’s word is not contingent upon a popularity contest. Nor is it dependent upon our personal approval. It is incumbent upon us to conform to God’s word, not God’s word to conform to us.

Halbhh · Aug 14, 2018

Albion said:
I thought about saying that, but the main thrust of the OP seemed to be that our friend just couldn't wrap her thinking around the message of the sermons. For that reason, leaving this church right now seems premature.

If she were firmly committed to the Arminian POV, it might be different, but at this stage, she is simply uncertain. Of course there is also the matter of the sermons being repetitious and therefore unfulfilling, but leaving for that reason alone is still something that ought to be done only as a last resort IMHO.

But I noticed in the OP she says it's the only message of the sermons since the new pastor, an obsession/pet issue -- all (double-)predestination/grace. Did you notice that detail in the first paragraph there? In other words, the problem isn't just repetition. It's the absence of the rest of the gospel, the absence of...well, what is preached in most all other churches.

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