If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

SkyWriting · Aug 13, 2018

ClementofA said:
Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

No problemo. The original is still intact.
You have saved the world with your criticism.

ClementofA · Aug 13, 2018

SkyWriting said:
No problemo. The original is still intact.
You have saved the world with your criticism.

The term used in the Bible is 'eternal fire' or 'the lake of fire.' This is the place to which the Bible says the unsaved are sent.

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
Chapter Nine

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t...re is punishment, but not everlasting&f=false

Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

continued next post

ClementofA · Aug 13, 2018

Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=t4...ned, a certain limit is again posited&f=false

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oD... everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

he-man · Aug 13, 2018

ClementofA said:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33: Every argument against universalism has been addressed on these forums & none have shown Scriptural Universalism is not true. For example:

They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf. That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

ClementofA · Aug 13, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
Unbelief does not save.

Agreed.

ICONO'CLAST said:
You according to your post are in unbelief.

Regarding what?

ICONO'CLAST said:
Jesus did not weep over Jerusalem because they were all going to be saved.

He was sad because many were going to have to suffer "hell" before finally being saved.
But He knew it would be for their own good.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

SkyWriting · Aug 13, 2018

ClementofA said:
The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
Chapter Nine

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t8FDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Origen+There+is+a+resurrection+of+the+dead,+and+there+is+punishment,+but+not+everlasting&source=bl&ots=4r3NGBhT0C&sig=c1KIf9XHCnTg_AGnq2Y7GBwLSoI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmyaeirbHbAhXjylQKHfJfCxkQ6AEIXTAG#v=onepage&q=Origen There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting&f=false

Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

continued next post

God does not experience time.
Everything is eternal in the next life
becasue time does not exist.

It seems you picked a fight with someone on your own side.

ClementofA · Aug 13, 2018

SkyWriting said:
God does not experience time.
Everything is eternal in the next life
becasue time does not exist.

Does Scripture say people do not experience time "in the next life"?

SkyWriting said:
It seems you picked a fight with someone on your own side.

I don't fight people, but false doctrines.

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.13 Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.

ClementofA · Aug 13, 2018

he-man said:
20 Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off!

Not that it matters, but there is no "cut off" in almost every translation, e.g.:

English Standard Version
Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.

Berean Study Bible
A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish.

New American Standard Bible
Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish.

King James Bible
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

and David says regarding himself:

Psalm 73:22
I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before You.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

SkyWriting · Aug 14, 2018

ClementofA said:
Does Scripture say people do not experience time "in the next life"?

Scripture explains all the characteristics of a timeless Spirit.
Immortality
Eternal
Alpha and Omega
"A day is as a thousand years" - You can use that as a Math equation - or a way of saying God does not experience time like humans do - or God is timeless.

he-man · Aug 14, 2018

ClementofA said:
Not that it matters, but here is no "cut off" in almost every translation, e.g.: English Standard Version
Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.
Berean Study Bible A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish. New American Standard Bible Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish. King James Bible Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish. and David says regarding himself: Psalm 73:22 I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before You.

Not that it matters but you could quote the whole thing instead of your out of context obliteration :
Psalms 73:22 Then I was brutish and knew nothing; I was as a beast with thee. 23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden my right hand;
24 Thou wilt guide me by thy counsel, and after the glory, thou wilt receive me. 25 Whom have I in the heavens? and there is none upon earth I desire beside thee. 26 My flesh and my heart faileth: God is the rock of my heart and my portion for ever. 27 For behold, they that are far from thee shall perish; thou destroyest every one that goeth a whoring from thee. 28 But as for me, it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord Jehovah, that I may declare all thy works.

Mockers for ever they see not the light.
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, ones to whom the infernal region G2217 G3588 of darkness [into G1519 the G3588 eon G165 is being kept]. G5083 .

Psalms 49:19, He shall enter G1525 unto G2193 the generation G1074 of his fathers; G3962 G1473 unto G2193 the eon G165 he shall not G3756 see G3708 light. G5457
It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light.
They are laid in sheol like sheep.
Man in honor without understanding is like the beasts that perish, but the righteous remnant trusts in God: his soul is redeemed from the power of the grave. [DARBY]

Psalms 49:20 translations:
CEB Wealthy people? They just don’t understand; they’re just like the animals that pass away.
CJB but he will join his ancestors’ generations and never again see light.
GW Mortals, with what they treasure, still don’t have understanding. They are like animals that die. A psalm by Asaph.
GNT Our greatness cannot keep us from death; we will still die like the animals.
JUB Man that is in honour that does not understand is like the beasts that are cut off.
TLB For man with all his pomp must die like any animal.
MSG We aren’t immortal. We don’t last long. Like our dogs, we age and weaken. And die.
NOG Mortals, with what they treasure, still don’t have understanding. They are like animals that die.
NABRE But he will join the company of his fathers, never again to see the light.
TLV He will still join his fathers’ company, who will never see the light.
YLT Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off!
H1820 דָּמָה dâmâh daw-maw' A primitive root; to be dumb or silent; hence to fail or perish; transitively to destroy: - cease, be cut down (off), destroy, be brought to silence, be undone, X utterly.

Psalms 1:4,5,6 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand - This refers to the winnowing mentioned in the preceding verse. Some of the versions have, The ungodly shall not arise in the judgment - they shall have no resurrection, except to shame and everlasting contempt. But probably the meaning is, When they come to be judged, they shall be condemned. They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf. That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

Do you deny our Christ? For behold, they that are far from thee shall perish; thou destroyest every one that goeth a whoring from thee.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

he-man · Aug 14, 2018

ClementofA said:
Not that it matters, but there is no "cut off" in almost every translation, e.g.: English Standard Version
Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand - This refers to the winnowing mentioned in the preceding verse. Some of the versions have, The ungodly shall not arise in the judgment - they shall have no resurrection, except to shame and everlasting contempt. But probably the meaning is, When they come to be judged, they shall be condemned. They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf. That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

ClementofA · Aug 14, 2018

he-man said:
Not that it matters but you could quote the whole thing instead of your out of context obliteration :

Haha. Funny. I was responding to your quote which left out the context. Now you want to add "context" after i showed that - your - quote fails to prove what you thought it did?

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

ClementofA · Aug 15, 2018

he-man said:
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

If the ungodly are not saved/delivered from death, & they are dead & in their graves, then they won't "appear" anywhere. Not in this world, anyway (except in their graves), at least until their resurrection.

Peter's quote is from Prov.11:31 LXX, which in context refers to this earthly life, not final destiny or postmortem consequences:

30 Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life; but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.
31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
https://biblehub.com/sep/proverbs/11.htm

"saved or delivered":
https://studybible.info/strongs/G4982
"4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4982.htm

18 and if the just one scarcely is safe, the impious one and sinner where will appear? (DG)

18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (NIV)

If it is hard/difficult for the righteous to be saved, how much harder/more difficult will it be for the ungodly to be saved. That doesn't prove the ungodly can't be saved.

Saved from what? Saved from endless tortures or endless annihilation? Or saved from going to be tormented in Hades or the LOF? And, then, being tormented only until they find salvation in Christ their Lord, "the Savior of the world" (Jn.4:42).

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?

Peter asks these questions. Does he know the answer to them? Does he tell us?

Saved from what? Going to Hades? The lake of fire? Then being saved when the lake of fire (the 2nd death) is abolished when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes All "in all" (v.28), even all who were in Adam (v.22).

Compare from the same chapter of 1 Pet.4:

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

and from 1 Pet 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

and here Peter speaks again:

Acts 3:21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of restoration of all, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.

And Paul:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

he-man · Aug 15, 2018

ClementofA said:
If the ungodly are not saved/delivered from death, & they are dead & in their graves, then they won't "appear" anywhere. Not in this world, anyway (except in their graves), at least until their resurrection.
Peter's quote is from Prov.11:31 LXX, which in context refers to this earthly life, not final destiny or postmortem consequences: 30 Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life; but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.
31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Dear brother, you still have a lot to learn, if only you would read the scriptures with an open mind.
Proverbs 11:30,31, which in 30 Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life; but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.
31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:17 For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come ; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?

Indeed what shall be the end of those who refuse to believe?

Mal 4:1 For behold, the day cometh, burning as a furnace; and all the proud and all that work wickedness shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, so that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

What day is that?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress, such as never was since there was a nation until that time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that is found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.

Mat 3:12 whose winnowing fan is in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing-floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Psalms 73:26 My flesh and my heart faileth: God is the rock of my heart and my portion for ever. 27 For behold, they that are far from thee shall perish; thou destroyest every one that goeth a whoring from thee. 28 But as for me, it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord Jehovah, that I may declare all thy works.

Psalms 49:19, He shall enter G1525 unto G2193 the generation G1074 of his fathers; G3962 G1473 unto G2193 the eon G165 he shall not G3756 see G3708 light. G5457
It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light.
They are laid in sheol like sheep.

Man in honor without understanding is like the beasts that perish, but the righteous remnant trusts in God: his soul is redeemed from the power of the grave. [DARBY]

CJB but he will join his ancestors’ generations and never again see light.
YLT Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off!
H1820 דָּמָה dâmâh daw-maw' A primitive root; to be dumb or silent; hence to fail or perish; transitively to destroy: - cease, be cut down (off), destroy, be brought to silence, be undone, X utterly.
Matthew 3:10 And already the axe is applied to the root of the trees; every tree therefore not producing good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand - This refers to the winnowing mentioned in the preceding verse. Some of the versions have, The ungodly shall not arise in the judgment - they shall have no resurrection, except to shame and everlasting contempt. But probably the meaning is, When they come to be judged, they shall be condemned. They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf. That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

ClementofA · Aug 16, 2018

he-man said:
Dear brother, you still have a lot to learn, if only you would read the scriptures with an open mind.

I read in Scripture that God is love, love never fails, His mercy endures forever, mercy triumphs over judgement, God is good & doeth good, & is awesomely great. But nothing about being like a hitler who gases people to death for all eternity. Nothing about the love of Love Omnipotent expiring like a carton of milk.

You keep posting the same verses repeatedly even after they've all been addressed repeatedly while ignoring the responses. Anyone searching into this topic with a prayer full "open mind" can search this thread & the forum to see that.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

he-man · Aug 17, 2018

ClementofA said:
I read in Scripture that God is love, love never fails, His mercy endures forever, mercy triumphs over judgement, God is good & doeth good, & is awesomely great. But nothing about being like a hitler who gases people to death for all eternity. Nothing about the love of Love Omnipotent expiring like a carton of milk.
You keep posting the same verses repeatedly even after they've all been addressed repeatedly while ignoring the responses. Anyone searching into this topic with a prayer full "open mind" can search this thread & the forum to see that.

Will David Nuckols save you or do you want to believe the Bible?
Your David Nuckols forgot to read the whole thing and cherry picked Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Your Gary Amirault quoted John 4:42　 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.　

But why did he leave out John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word; Joh 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Act of the Apostles 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

John 17:8　 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.9　 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.　
That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE] Cat got your tongue? Can't you speak for yourself and not keep quoting your tentmaker. GIVE ME the verses!

Proverbs 11:30,31, which in 30 Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life; but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.

Mal 4:1 For behold, the day cometh, burning as a furnace; and all the proud and all that work wickedness shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, so that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Matthew 3:10 And already the axe is applied to the root of the trees; every tree therefore not producing good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

ClementofA · Aug 17, 2018

"Jonathan Edwards, The Eternity of Hell Torments, 1739"

" “The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven. The sight of hell’s torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.” " https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/a-fearful-thing/13294

he-man · Aug 18, 2018

ClementofA said:
"Jonathan Edwards, The Eternity of Hell Torments, 1739"

" “The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven. The sight of hell’s torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.” " https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/a-fearful-thing/13294

I told you, Have you heard or have you looked?
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.　

A person cannot be tortured forever if he does not have Immortality and if he did nothing could hurt him.

1 Timothy 6:16　 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.　

You must first believe!
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.　

1 John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12　 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.　

If you do not think you must first believe to receive eternal grace then think again:
Titus 3:10　A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;　11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;　10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile , John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.　

Unless, of course, you are ignorant:
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,　
18　Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:　

Who is the only one that can destroy both the fleshly body and the spiritual?
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.　

ClementofA · Aug 18, 2018

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
You're speaking to an open theist, someone who believes that God doesn't know what will happen in the future, but is certainly capable of working toward any goals He may have, and is indeed capable of overcoming any obstacles in His way, that He can predict man's actions far better than any strategist, In other words, while God can predict outcomes far into the future, the future isn't settled, and things can and do change.

If, as you allege, "God doesn't know what will happen in the future" and "the future isn't settled, and things can and do change", then how would He (or you) know that the final destiny of all human beings is not salvation?

And if, as you allege God "is certainly capable of working toward any goals He may have, and is indeed capable of overcoming any obstacles in His way", why is there an expiry date (a human's time of death) on His love & desire to save all?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
As far as Adam and Eve are concerned, though, God knew it was a possibility that they would reject Him, but still took the risk of putting a way out in an easy to find place.

Arguably it was not a possibility that A & E would sin, but determined. The first Adam was a soulish man (1 Cor.15:45-46) & Scripture says the soulish man cannot know the things of the Spirit God:

1 Cor.2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned.

Furthermore:

Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
I would imagine it was perfect, and very good. :think:

Please provide Scripture that says Adam's relationship with God was "perfect, and very good".
OTOH there is this viewpoint:

https://www.concordant.org/expositi...ments-god-contents/part-one-6-knowledge-good/

Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
They would have had the same kind of relationship that those who will exist with Him for all eternity will have with Him (if slightly different in that we will have already chosen to be with Him, and wouldn't even consider rejecting Him).

In other words, a better relationship than ours is, but with the potential to be even better.

Is there nothing in Scripture that backs up that guesswork.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
Perhaps not directly, no. But it is based on what the rest of scripture says.

I don't see any support in Scripture for your assumptions about the garden of Eden.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
But God is NOT impotent. His plan was, from whenever He decided to create this universe we live in, that if His creation rebelled, God the Father would send His Son, who would go willingly, to die for all mankind to redeem His creation.

I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's omipotentce. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Omnipotent suddenly becomes impotent to save anyone who died in their sins:

In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
And yet, He would still honor the decision of those who reject Him, and allow them to exist apart from him. The ONLY other alternative is to be like the man in the first scenario above, and hold those captive who don't want to be with Him.

The other alternative is to seek the lost coin & lost sheep...till he find them (Luke 15). Or do you think God's love has an expiry date like a carton of milk?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
There IS no other way. That's why He went to the Cross. It's not possible for God to destroy something that He designed to last for eternity.

So once again you make God impotent. Or too stupid to make man in such a way that He is able to annihilate the poor wretches out of existence, rather than see them tortured for all eternity.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
A husband and wife (and this tragedy is a true story, happened to a friend of a friend) found out that their son was molesting their daughter. They love them both dearly, but in order to protect their daughter, they had to send their son away and disown him, prohibiting him from ever seeing or coming near her again.

That's the same situation God is in. He loves everyone dearly, but in order to protect those who love Him, He must send away eternally those who would do them (and Him) harm.

He can't be compassionate to both, because then both parties would be harmed.

He can seek the abusing sheep till He find him. Then those sheep can be reconciled with those other sinners that they abused & live happily ever after. He is not impotent like human beings are who are incapable of resolving such issues as you describe. You lower Love Omnipotent to the level of weak, impotent & powerless human beings.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
The pagan greek concept of omnipresence is what I reject. God can be anywhere He wants to be, and is not forced by some pagan term to be where He doesn't want to be.

In Him human beings live & move & have their being. Why should it be otherwise for those in "hell"?

I asked:

"Why would Love Omnipotent tell people to depart into what He knows will be endless torments with no hope of salvation for all eternity? Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?"

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
Because they were given how many opportunities to hear His call throughout their lifetime? ten? a hundred? a thousand? a million? a billion? God has given everyone an entire lifetime to come to Him. Which is why death is the cutoff point to make their decision, and after this the judgement.

That's no reason why He makes death a cutoff. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?

I asked:

"What if when He tells them to depart that they don't want to? Isn't it your position that God will not force people like a rapist?"

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
It's also yours, if I read your response above correctly.

Except in my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved. But in your view Love Omnipotent's love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you're making God the rapist you described.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
If someone has made their decision to reject God, and die before they change their mind, God isn't going to give them another chance, again, because it would be counterproductive.

Once again your God is the rapist, forcing people away from him who don't want to be.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
If God were to give everyone a second chance, or third, fourth, fifth, etc., to repent after death, then no one would repent, because they would put it off until just before their chance ran out, and then demand that God give them another chance.

Who says they'll (1) put it off or (2) know when "their chance ran out"? People in this life don't know when "their chances run out", so how would they know postmortem? If they (3) "put it off", i.e. getting saved, then they continue in "hell" in torments until they do accept Christ. The longer they put it off, the longer their torments will be.

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
God is fair, and therefore, in the interest of fairness, death is the deadline (no pun intended (ok, maybe it was)) for choosing sides.

You call "fair" endless infinite torments for finite sins of a momentary lifetime?

I posted:

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
First of all, who said this?

Second, whoever said this believes in the God of scenario 1.

1] some forum member
2] i'm not so sure about that

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
Mercy and judgment are not diametrically opposed, and certainly not in the Bible.

Do you suppose "mercy triumphs over judgement" means they are kissing each other?

because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (Js.2:13)

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
Those who accept God and love Him are shown mercy and given grace. Those who reject Him will be cast into the lake of fire, so that their one desire, to be apart from God, can be granted.

What if they change their mind & decide they want salvation?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
And yet, not all will want God's love.

Says who?

I posted:

Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
For those who love God, heaven is being with God, and hell is being apart from God.

For those who hate God, hell is being with God and those who love Him, and heaven is being apart from God.

How does that address the question. You said in hell the wicked will be tormented by the knowledge of rejecting God. Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right? Or does God force/rape them to think thoughts that will torment them forever?

Does He remove their freewill to choose Him. Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin, thereby forcing them like one controls a puppet to stay in heaven forever?

I posted:

I wonder who is slamming that door shut, forever. The One Who cuts off communications forever in saying depart forever?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
No, the one who rejects God is the one slamming the door shut, locking it and throwing away the key. It closes for good when a person dies, but since God would rather men repent and come to Him than they suffer for eternity, up until their death, if they so choose, they can reopen it. God patiently waits at the door, knocking, asking if He can come in. But if the person dies first, that door cannot be reopened, because the only way to open it is on the inside.

What if those in hell decide they want salvation?

I asked:

So all those who never heard the gospel are going to be damned forever, even if they would have believed if they had ever heard it?

JudgeRightly;5266642 said:
Romans 2 talks about that.

Also, "the heavens declare the glory of God," and "to whom much is given, much is required, and to whom little is given, little is required" apply as well.

So people can die without believing in Jesus & still accept Him postmortem?

In conclusion your views leads to either

1) God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
2) God's love expires like a carton of milk, or
3) God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
4) God is like a rapist, or
5) Some or all of the above.

You try to dress up "endless conscious torments" (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT "God".

ClementofA · Aug 20, 2018

I asked:

And if, as you allege God "is certainly capable of working toward any goals He may have, and is indeed capable of overcoming any obstacles in His way", why is there an expiry date (a human's time of death) on His love & desire to save all?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Because it would be unfair to give everyone more chances after death to accept Him.

Unfair to who? Will those in heaven feel it's unfair if those in hell, after suffering torments in hell & thereafter finding salvation in the Savior, are welcomed into heaven? Should Christians be bitter & cry about that? No doubt many eternal tormentists would answer "yes". Which brings to mind a parable Jesus spoke:

Luke 15:25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

I posted:

Please provide Scripture that says Adam’s relationship with God was “perfect, and very good”.
OTOH there is this viewpoint:

https://www.concordant.org/expositi...ments-god-contents/part-one-6-knowledge-good/

Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. - Genesis 1:31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:31&version=NKJV

A newborn baby could be described as "very good". It doesn't logically follow that your relationship with that baby is on the same level as with an adult or mature human being. Compared to the latter the relationship with the baby is quite imperfect. What parent would be satisfied if the relationship remained at the baby level forever.

Nothing in Gen.1:31 says Adam & Eve even had a relationship with God, let alone a relationship you described as "perfect, and very good" and as "They would have had the same kind of relationship that those who will exist with Him for all eternity will have with Him (if slightly different in that we will have already chosen to be with Him, and wouldn’t even consider rejecting Him)".

Without having a knowledge of good & evil, since they had not partaken of that tree, how would they know that God was good? Or how would they know what good is, since they had nothing - no evil - to contrast it with? So how could they thank or praise Him for His goodness?

Consider this opinion:

"In 11:32, 36, Paul does not consider the Fall from the perspective of our willful disobedience, but from the perspective of God’s providential plan in which humanity is imprisoned and about which humanity therefore has no choice. In this respect, it is important to note that only the Fall empowers humanity to become “godlike” and thus to be able to discern the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:22). Do you actually believe that God would have preferred Adam and Eve not to become godlike and not to be capable of discerning good from evil?"

" “God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning good from evil (Genesis 3:22). How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimately benefit from His mercy and grace!"

I posted:

Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
I'm not sure what your point is here, could you clarify?

The point is there is no hint in Genesis of Adam & Eve having a spiritual relationship with God. Not, at least, until after the fall.

I posted:

I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's omipotentce. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Omnipotent

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
At this point, I'm going to call your use of "omnipotent" here question begging, because Scripture does not say God has all power, it says he delegates authority (power) to certain entities within His creation. God is infinitely powerful, of course, but that doesn't mean He has all power.

Your objection seems trivial & inconsequential, but I'll rephrase my question:

I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's infinite power. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Almighty suddenly becomes impotent to save anyone who died in their sins:

In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
It's because they died rejecting Him that God cannot save them.

Why is that? Has Love Omnipotent lost His power to save after a person's death? Does death somehow freeze a person's soul so that it can no longer change? Does God's goodness, mercy & love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
He is not the God of injustice, but of justice.

It would be unjust to allow someone who died rejecting Him, unforgiven, to live with Him forever.

Is there an expiry date when God no longer has any forgiveness to give, even if someone repented postmortem?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
If someone dies without accepting God's gift, then the only alternative is death, separation from God.

What of those who never believed while alive, but would have believed if they had heard the gospel? Will they fry forever or be saved postmortem?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Calling God a fool isn't going to bode well for you on Judgment day.

I was referring to a false god & the foolish way it made human beings:

In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
God can only do so much, but He can't make the decision to accept Christ for man. Man is the only one who can make that decision.

What's stopping him from making a decision for Christ postmortem?

Will aborted babies be given the choice to make a choice for, or against, Christ postmortem? Or will they be forced into heaven whether they want to or not, whether born again or not, with or without their sinful nature, & with or without demons possessing them?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Again, there's only so much God can do.

What's stopping Him from offering salvation to those in hell?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
As I stated before, to create something that lasts for eternity, it must be indestructible. And if it is indestructible, then God Himself cannot destroy it, because then it would be destructible, and not indestructible, and would therefore not last for eternity.

That argument fails since the soul doesn't need to be indestructible to last for eternity. So the objection still remains as to why a loving God would make human souls indestructible if he knew that many (or any) human would (or might) then end up in endless torments. If He were a wise & loving, instead of a stupid & foolish creator, he would have made them destructible. Then, instead of being forced to let humans suffer endless torments, he could have mercy on them & annihilate them out of existence, so they wouldn't have to suffer forever.

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
So no, God is unable to annihilate any man. Which ties in with what Jesus said in Gethsemane: "if there be any other way, let this cup pass; but if there is no other way, Father, Your will be done."

You haven't established any logical connection between the two.

Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL is possible.

Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."

I posted re postmortem salvation:

He can seek the abusing sheep till He find him. Then those sheep can be reconciled with those other sinners that they abused & live happily ever after. He is not impotent like human beings are who are incapable of resolving such issues as you describe. You lower Love Omnipotent to the level of weak, impotent & powerless human beings.

I also asked:

Why would Love Omnipotent tell people to depart into what He knows will be endless torments with no hope of salvation for all eternity? Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?

That's no reason why He makes death a cutoff. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Do you remember what happened when God showed Pharaoh in Egypt those miracles? Do you remember what happened to Pharaoh?

Do you have a point to make?

I posted:

What if when He tells them to depart that they don't want to? Isn't it your position that God will not force people like a rapist?

Except in my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved.

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Except that's not what scripture says:

Already addressed in a separate post. Moreover, i was addressing your assumptions & logical arguments related to your theory that the garden of Eden account refutes universalism. Which, BTW, you've failed to prove.

I posted:

But in your view Love Omnipotent's love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you're making God the rapist you described.

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Except I'm not, nor did God's love "expire."

Then what will keep Him from evangelizing those in hell? His impotence?

Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son. (Gen.18:14)

Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL is possible.

Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
God still loves those who died rejecting Him.

He doesn't love them, since he foolishly made them indestructible & capable of, & with a high chance for, suffering indestructible endless torments. Moreover, He does nothing to evangelize them in hell, but leaves them alone to rot & suffer there forever. Which is a long, long time to suffer. Truly such a god is the opposite of loving. And insane.

I posted:

Once again your God is the rapist, forcing people away from him who don't want to be.

JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Except that they don't want to be with Him.

Not while they were alive, perhaps. But why not give them an opportunity to change their mind postmortem?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

The Librarian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

he-man

Well-Known Member

The Librarian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Librarian

he-man

he-man

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

he-man

Well-Known Member

he-man

Well-Known Member

he-man

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads