Predestination

akmom said:

The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

Click to expand...

Predestination is a doctrine embraced by Calvinists that accepts both the sovereignty of God in election and the choice of the human will in accepting God free gift of salvation. For me predestination makes sense because our salvation is based on God's divine attributes, he predestined us to be the righteousness of Christ before the foundation of the world because there was never a plan b. The confusions comes in when Calvinists claim God wrote the book of life with all the names of those who would be saved. Paul.does say the God predestined him personally for salvation and it's a difficult concept to grasp if your not careful. I've never worried about something like the mystery of God plans and purposes and whether or not God knew the name of everyone who would be saved, that is just beyond me.

I accept that God does foreknow the elect but I don't bother trying to sort that out formally. When you run into something like this always go back to.the simplicity of the gospel and justification by grace through faith. I've always thought it was better to emphasis what we are predestined to, the focus should always be on the perfection of Christ and the sufficient of grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark

sdowney717 said:

Again, John 3:3.
Jesus teaches a man must be born again before he will believe.
So what comes first, a person's belief in Christ without any prior change, or the change of the heart by God putting in them a new spirit which frees them from satan's hold and imposed blindness on their minds to believe in Christ?

Click to expand...

Acts of the Apostles 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

Converted here is talking about being born again.

You said:

2 Corinthians 4,
All who are perishing have their minds blinded by Satan, lest the gospel of Christ should shine on them.
But those who believe, v6.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Matthew 13:15 says,
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

sdowney717 said:

Again, John 3:3.
Jesus teaches a man must be born again before he will believe.
So what comes first, a person's belief in Christ without any prior change, or the change of the heart by God putting in them a new spirit which frees them from satan's hold and imposed blindness on their minds to believe in Christ?

Click to expand...

No, John 3:3 doesn't teach that. Doesn't even use the word "faith". But if you were to study the scriptures more thoroughly on the subject of the order of faith and being born of God, you would discover verses like:

John 1:12,13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

Notice that a person doesn't even get the right to become born of God until they believe. Therefore faith precedes being born of God.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

If a person is a son of God through faith, therefore faith must precede becoming a son of God.

And just to note a significant issue with Calvinism regarding the gospel, Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. The Bible teaches, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" But rather they believe in salvation by pre-birth election. That is an elect person is born destined for heaven and thus is already saved when they are born. Faith is relegated to a minor role of merely revealing one's elect status.

bcbsr said:

No, John 3:3 doesn't teach that. Doesn't even use the word "faith". But if you were to study the scriptures more thoroughly on the subject of the order of faith and being born of God, you would discover verses like:

John 1:12,13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

Notice that a person doesn't even get the right to become born of God until they believe. Therefore faith precedes being born of God.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

If a person is a son of God through faith, therefore faith must precede becoming a son of God.

And just to note a significant issue with Calvinism regarding the gospel, Calvinists don't believe in salvation by faith. The Bible teaches, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" But rather they believe in salvation by pre-birth election. That is an elect person is born destined for heaven and thus is already saved when they are born. Faith is relegated to a minor role of merely revealing one's elect status.

Click to expand...

Sure they believe in the importance of faith, that saving faith is a gift from God.
John 1:12, The reason they received Him, is they were born of God. Which agrees completely with John 3:3, you must be born again before you will believe, otherwise your natural carnal mind considers the kingdom of God just plain foolishness.
Here is what 'see' actually means...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

If you can not see the kingdom, then you won't be believing in Christ unless first born of God.
EVERYTHING depends on the new birth.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1492&t=KJV
Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō

εἴδω
Transliteration
eidō
Pronunciation
ā'-dō (Key)

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

sdowney717 said:

Sure they believe in the importance of faith, that saving faith is a gift from God.
John 1:12, The reason they received Him, is they were born of God. Which agrees completely with John 3:3, you must be born again before you will believe, otherwise your natural carnal mind considers the kingdom of God just plain foolishness.
Here is what 'see' actually means...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

If you can not see the kingdom, then you won't be believing in Christ unless first born of God.
EVERYTHING depends on the new birth.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1492&t=KJV
Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō

εἴδω
Transliteration
eidō
Pronunciation
ā'-dō (Key)

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

Click to expand...

Seeing the Kingdom of God is talking about literally seeing the Kingdom one day.
In order to see God and His Kingdom one day, you have to be born again.

Acts of the Apostles 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

Again, converted here is talking about being born again.

Small Fish said:

The way I understand it is that earth would have been populated by perfect sons and daughters of God had Adam and Eve not fell.

See, every son and daughter of God already existed in God's Mind even before the fall of man. They were pre-planned. Just think of some Bible characters. Moses did not arrive by accident, did he? Nor David, Esther, Jesus Himself or any of the prophets. Jesus's coming had been prophesied long before He arrived.

If earthly parents can plan their families then How much more God Who even have your hair numbered.

Look at this verse... God speaking to Job...

Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

According to these verses the sons of God shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the world. Job was there in God's Mind. Perhaps not manifested yet but in God's sovereign plan and knowledge Job was already there.

But, with the fall, a "bad seed" manifested as we can see from Cain's behavior. The following Scriptures points to this bad seed.

1 John 3:12
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

And also... God said to the serpent...

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is where predestination comes in. It's the same as a father looking for His biological child. He is not responsible for other peoples children.

So this is what the Gospel is about. God coming for His Own and making a way back for them in restoration.

Get it, He comes to restore back to what He had in His Mind from before the foundation of the world.

The very word redeem means to bring back.

Click to expand...

If God knew everything everyone would do for all eternity before the Book of Genesis was written, then why did Jesus pick Judas to be one of the 12? Why was Paul not condemned for arresting Christians? God can make things happen for a repentant soul. One who stated out as a student of Christ did not complete his education.

Also it is kind of dumb for Jesus to tell Nicodemus to be born again if it was just something automatic that was going to happen to him. Jesus was telling him that he must be born again. Jesus was giving Nicodemus instructions and he was not informing him of things out of his control.

It would be like saying to Nicodemus, hey, did you know that gravity keeps you on this Earth? So stay on this Earth, my dear Nicodemus. See. It would not make any sense to even have this conversation. Why tell Nicodemus about something that is beyond his control? What good would it do?

Jesus says,
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:7).

Again, why would Jesus say that he must be born again if it is something that is beyond his control?

In other words, it would sort of be like Rick saying to Fred (who is in coma), "You must order pizza!" and yet Rick knows Fred is not capable of ordering pizza because he has no money and no phone and he is in a coma. It would be non-sense for Rick to tell Fred to do something that is beyond his control.

dqhall said:

If God knew everything everyone would do for all eternity before the Book of Genesis was written, then why did Jesus pick Judas to be one of the 12? Why was Paul not condemned for arresting Christians? God can make things happen for a repentant soul. One who stated out as a student of Christ did not complete his education.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but do you imply that Jesus made a mistake when He chose Judas?

dqhall said:

If God knew everything everyone would do for all eternity before the Book of Genesis was written, then why did Jesus pick Judas to be one of the 12? Why was Paul not condemned for arresting Christians? God can make things happen for a repentant soul. One who stated out as a student of Christ did not complete his education.

Click to expand...

This should clear that up. It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. So it is not your flesh that believes, you must become born again with a new heart and a new spirit to believe in Christ.
If you are just flesh and not spiritually alive, your spiritually dead cold to the gospel.

John 6

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

dqhall said:

If God knew everything everyone would do for all eternity before the Book of Genesis was written, then why did Jesus pick Judas to be one of the 12? Why was Paul not condemned for arresting Christians? God can make things happen for a repentant soul. One who stated out as a student of Christ did not complete his education.

Click to expand...

This still does not prove that God forces some to be saved and others not to be saved.

akmom said:

The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

Click to expand...

This pastor at your church seems to have exchanged the gospel with predestination. I believe there is a false security in believing to be a Christian because of being predestined to be. I think the whole idea is faulty. Security is to come from relationship, you love Christ and you follow Christ with your whole heart. Then you are a disciple of Christ.

Luke 6
46“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? 47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”

sdowney717 said:

Sure they believe in the importance of faith, that saving faith is a gift from God.
John 1:12, The reason they received Him, is they were born of God. Which agrees completely with John 3:3, you must be born again before you will believe, otherwise your natural carnal mind considers the kingdom of God just plain foolishness.
Here is what 'see' actually means...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

If you can not see the kingdom, then you won't be believing in Christ unless first born of God.
EVERYTHING depends on the new birth.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1492&t=KJV
Lexicon :: Strong's G1492 - eidō

εἴδω
Transliteration
eidō
Pronunciation
ā'-dō (Key)

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

Click to expand...

First you tried to prove the Calvinist order that being born of God precedes faith using a single verse that doesn't even contain the faith. I responded with two verse that speak both of faith and being born of God which prove that faith precedes being born of God. And now you misread one of them to try to prove the opposite by remove the section of that verse that contains the word "faith".

Here's what John 1:12 ACTUALLY SAYS, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—"

What you did I find typical of Calvinists. You tinkered with the verse, removing a relevant section of it to justify your misconceived theology. That's why I don't recommend Calvnistic preachers. They typically tinker with the scriptures, and take things out of context as they try to justify their misconceived notions.

If you read the verse you should notice that "to those who believed in his name" is a pre-condition to receiving the right to becoming a child of God.

sdowney717 said:

This should clear that up. It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. So it is not your flesh that believes, you must become born again with a new heart and a new spirit to believe in Christ.
If you are just flesh and not spiritually alive, your spiritually dead cold to the gospel.

John 6

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Click to expand...

God elects or chooses based on His future foreknowledge.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,..."
(1 Peter 1:1-2).

This does not mean the Lord is forcing them to be a certain way.
If such were the case, then how we live shouldn't really matter. This life would be meaningless. This means God is able to see and acknowledge before creation who is a believer or not based on His future foreknowledge of what we would all do of our own free will choice.

akmom said:

The church I have attended for years got a new pastor a few years ago, and he preaches a hard-line predestination theology. That’s the only thing I have ever heard him preach. He literally talks about nothing else except God’s grace and how touched we should be by it.

I grew up in a baptist church all my life and never even heard the terms Calvinist or Armenian until this guy. I was familiar with the concepts, but only vaguely. It seemed like splitting hairs. I am not exaggerating this guy’s position when I say that all who are predestined will accept salvation, inevitably, there’s no resisting it. And the rest, they’re burning in hell no matter what. It seems to be a well received position in the church, and everyone of a different persuasion left early on.

So I’m kind of left wondering why I am even still there. It’s all gibberish to me. I mean I pray and attend, and yet everything he says... I don’t even get it. If salvation is really for the “elect” only, and I’ve been seeking God for 20+ years and none of this resonates with me at all, wouldn’t it be safe to say I’m not part of the elect? So... what exactly is the purpose of the rest of us?

I was always taught that salvation was for everyone, and everyone could accept it. But oddly, I never did relate to others’ testimonial experiences of being born again, so I’m not entirely skeptical of the concept that some people don’t get to be. And honestly I’m not real convinced on the nature of hell either, but if it’s all predestined then it really doesn’t matter what I believe about anything. Just wondering where to go from here. Attend church for another 30 years? Maybe I’ll have that experience eventually? Or maybe I am born again, just blind and deaf to God?

Is this not an experience? I only hear people who say salvation is for everyone, so if you ask God, you can consider yourself saved. Or you’re predestined and you’ll definitely know because God seeks you. I guess I’m rooting for the Armenian position, but honestly it feels pretty hollow when the Calvinists around me seem to have something. What’s going on here?

Click to expand...

Without going into great details, predestination theology can be divided into two types; singular predestination of the elect only, and double predestination of the elect and non-elect. Singular predestination is by far the most common and historical position firmly established in Scripture. Double predestination is based more on implications. Personally I have gone back and forth with the two, but am most comfortable embracing singular predestination where God chooses the elect, and passes over the non-elect, leaving them to choose according to their nature and only within the boundaries of that nature, as such guilty as all are, the difference being God's gracious choice of mercy and imputation of the righteousness of Christ. This preserves both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. Hopefully this helps.

bcbsr said:

First you tried to prove the Calvinist order that being born of God precedes faith using a single verse that doesn't even contain the faith. I responded with two verse that speak both of faith and being born of God which prove that faith precedes being born of God. And now you misread one of them to try to prove the opposite by remove the section of that verse that contains the word "faith".

Here's what John 1:12 ACTUALLY SAYS, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—"

What you did I find typical of Calvinists. You tinkered with the verse, removing a relevant section of it to justify your misconceived theology. That's why I don't recommend Calvnistic preachers. They typically tinker with the scriptures, and take things out of context as they try to justify their misconceived notions.

If you read the verse you should notice that "to those who believed in his name" is a pre-condition to receiving the right to becoming a child of God.

Click to expand...

No calvinist denies we receive Christ as Lord, yet yourself choose to ignore all the relevant verses I point out to you.
Another is here. 'ALL' of those the Father draws will learn from the Father and come to Christ, in context, all that the Father gives me will come to me, Christ says. So then that is predestination right there.
John 6:43-45
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

People need to be careful, for with the same judgement you push on others, you will be found guilty of yourself as a hypocrite. And need to be careful about being hardened against the scriptures. People who are the opponents of God, only God can grant them repentance to know the truth. No one figures it out without being enlightened by God.

sdowney717 said:

No calvinist denies we receive Christ as Lord, yet yourself choose to ignore all the relevant verses I point out to you.
Another is here. 'ALL' of those the Father draws will learn from the Father and come to Christ, in context, all that the Father gives me will come to me, Christ says. So then that is predestination right there.
John 6:43-45
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

People need to be careful, for with the same judgement you push on others, you will be found guilty of yourself as a hypocrite. And need to be careful about being hardened against the scriptures. People who are the opponents of God, only God can grant them repentance to know the truth. No one figures it out without being enlightened by God.

Click to expand...

By this I take it you subscribe to his teaching? I'm interested to know more about it.

sdowney717 said:

No calvinist denies we receive Christ as Lord,

Click to expand...

Show me where I said that "calvinist denies we receive Christ as Lord". Or are you bearing false witness against me?

sdowney717 said:

yet yourself choose to ignore all the relevant verses I point out to you.

Click to expand...

Didn't ignore it. Just didn't find it relevant.

sdowney717 said:

People need to be careful, for with the same judgement you push on others, you will be found guilty of yourself as a hypocrite. And need to be careful about being hardened against the scriptures.

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That applies to you as well, right?

As for John 6:43-45 it makes no mention of being born of God. And so doesn't speak to the subject of the order of faith and being born of God. Therefore not relevant. However as it does say, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.", realize that's teaching synergism, contrary to the monergism of Calvinism. Learning involves cooperation, as opposed to the anti-free will fatalistic puppet theology of Calvinism.

Small Fish said:

By this I take it you subscribe to his teaching? I'm interested to know more about it.

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Do you mean the doctrines of Christ?

We have two different “theories” (and I say theories because scripture does not explain how this miracle works) on how “omniscience”, “predestination” and man’s free will work together especially in relationship to man’s salvation.

My understand of your pastor’s theory (please agree or disagree with each point) is this:

1. God knows man’s future perfectly from some beginning time or before time existed.

2. God knows all possible scenarios each individual human could go through from the beginning of time.

3. God has to and did “predestine” (which includes foreordaining) everything that will happen, so God has perfect foreknowledge of what “will” happen.

4. Each adult mature human makes choices (especially the choice to accept or reject God’s charity), but the choice the human “will” make can only be one way, since God setup a particular scenario that allows the human to make his choice one way.

5. God could choose from virtually infinite number of scenarios resulting in different people being saved or even everyone being saved, but is up to God who is saved.


My theory:

1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from his actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

Issues and differences with each theory:

1. There is no scripture suggesting: God choice of a person’s life scenarios is the determining factor in who is saved and lost.

2. There is nothing that proves God exists today in the future, past and present (that God is not limited by time).

3. The idea of God setting up very specific scenarios so each mature adult will only choose one predetermined choice to accept or reject God’s charity, means the choice is not a free will choice made by the individual, but only gives the appearance of being a free will choice since due to the scenario God setup the person cannot chose to do something other than what God has set him up to choose. The deciding factor on the choice is God’s chosen scenario and not man’s free will choice, so that is not a free will choice .

4. God setting up scenarios for each mature adult to accept or reject His charity in the form of forgiveness, allows the person to truly have a Godly type Love since we are taught by Christ: “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” So being forgiven (which includes accepting that forgiveness) of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love. The person has to make a truly free will choice to humbly accept God’s forgiveness and that will allow the Love to be truly his Love which will result in him Loving God.

5. With your pastor’s theory, God chose not to set it up for all humans to choose to accept His charity and be saved, so those lost would be God’s fault. This is not like God and Christ at all.

6. While under my theory; God is doing (setting it up) to provide the very best opportunity for each lost mature adult to be saved if they are willing. The person who rejects God’s charity is not wanting Godly type love and does not like Godly type Love, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love. God wants them to go to heaven, but not if it will make them unhappy, so He allows them to choose, but it is not in the form of choosing between heaven and hell, but between His Love (charity) or not His Love (Not charity).