Does God forget people who end up in Hell?

mmksparbud said:

Where does it say that those who do not believe in Jesus will be saved?? All who believe in Him are saved.
Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Where--in the bible--does it say that anyone who goes to hell is saved later.

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Are you still denying that mercy will triumph over judgement, as the Bible says? Do you think "hell" will triumph over mercy?

Verse 28 says He will be "all in all".

mmksparbud said:

1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Dan_12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan_11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan_12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
ah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

do not bother posting stuff that is contrary to the word of God--I will not read it--I want to know what the bible says not some misguided individual that has not read the entire bible, just the parts he thinks proves his theory.

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Is there some point to those verses? Will mercy triumph over judgement? Yes or no?

ClementofA said:

The Bible God is Love Omnipotent. So the burden of proof is on you to show from the Scriptures that he is not a God of love, but a monster who annihilates people out of existence forever.



I can't make people see what is right in front of their eyes if they refuse to open their eyes & heart to see it. That requires the work of Love Omnipotent.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

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Annihilating people out of existence is not being a cruel monster. It is being a God who is also the God of Justice. God is love, mercy, but also justice---and sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God anymore than a drop of water can exist on the face of the sun. It is not the sun that wants to kill the drop of water--it is just what happens when the drop of water hits the surface of the sun.

Just being in the presence of God, Moses face shone so bright that he had to be veiled. Mortal man can not stand His presence. Moses only saw His back.

2Th_2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

His judgement is all over the bible. And it doesn't take a college education to see it. You have not provided one single verse that says anyone comes out of hell for a 2nd chance. As long as there is no such verse--there is no such thing.

mmksparbud said:

Annihilating people out of existence is not being a cruel monster. It is being a God who is also the God of Justice.

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God's justice is in harmony with His love. Monstrously annihilating people forever is not the love that revealed the heart of God on the cross. God's justice is always corrective in purpose, in harmony with His nature of love, not sadistic, pointless, insane or monstrous. Mercy triumphs over judgement. God's wrath is corrective:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

mmksparbud said:

God is love, mercy, but also justice---and sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God anymore than a drop of water can exist on the face of the sun.

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If sin "cannot live in the presence of a holy and pure God", then why does the Bible speak of Satan being in His presence?

mmksparbud said:

It is not the sun that wants to kill the drop of water--it is just what happens when the drop of water hits the surface of the sun.

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Clearly endless annihilation from His presence isn't happening now, not even to Satan or demons or people in "hell". And if it happens later, it will be God forcing it to happen. So your attempt to get God off the hook doesn't work. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does His omniscience, omnipresence or omnipotence.

mmksparbud said:

2Th_2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

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"Vincent's Word Studies
Consume (ἀνελεῖ)
Better, slay, as Matthew 2:16; Luke 22:2; Acts 5:33."

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm

The Greek word for "destroy" can mean "render idle", "powerless", etc:

https://studybible.info/strongs/G2673

There is no endless annihilation of anyone in 2 Thess. 2:8 or anywhere else in the Bible.
Such is a made up myth to frighten people.

mmksparbud said:

His judgement is all over the bible.

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Even for Christians.

mmksparbud said:

And it doesn't take a college education to see it. You have not provided one single verse that says anyone comes out of hell for a 2nd chance. As long as there is no such verse--there is no such thing.

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There's a book full of them here:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

ClementofA said:

God's justice is in harmony with His love. Monstrously annihilating people forever is not the love that revealed the heart of God on the cross. God's justice is always corrective in purpose, in harmony with His nature of love, not sadistic, pointless, insane or monstrous. Mercy triumphs over judgement. God's wrath is corrective:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)




If sin "cannot live in the presence of a holy and pure God", then why does the Bible speak of Satan being in His presence?



Clearly endless annihilation from His presence isn't happening now, not even to Satan or demons or people in "hell". And if it happens later, it will be God forcing it to happen. So your attempt to get God off the hook doesn't work. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does His omniscience, omnipresence or omnipotence.



"Vincent's Word Studies
Consume (ἀνελεῖ)
Better, slay, as Matthew 2:16; Luke 22:2; Acts 5:33."

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm

The Greek word for "destroy" can mean "render idle", "powerless", etc:

https://studybible.info/strongs/G2673

There is no endless annihilation of anyone in 2 Thess. 2:8 or anywhere else in the Bible.
Such is a made up myth to frighten people.




Even for Christians.



There's a book full of them here:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

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Where is the verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death, after hell?? I am not reading your stuff!! I asked for bible verses not the blabberings of anyone.

What is barbaric is the idea of an eternally burning hell.
But you, and those like you, who teach there is a 2nd chance after death and hell will have to answer to God for all those who believed you and left off choosing God now, for they will wait for after He comes to change their minds. But they will find there is no 2nd chance. They listened to a false teaching, and chose to live without God now, and think they can choose Him later. You will be held responsible for their downfall.
And God has covering cherubs---Lucifer was once one. They cover the brightness of God with their wings. When that protection is removed--no sinner can stand it.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

mmksparbud said:

Where is the verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death, after hell?? I am not reading your stuff!! I asked for bible verses not the blabberings of anyone.

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Last time i checked there were lots of Bible verses at this link i gave you:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Which bible is "the bible" IYO? Or does it matter? How about this translation:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Do you believe mercy triumphs over judgement? Yes or no?

ClementofA said:

Last time i checked there were lots of Bible verses at this link i gave you:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Which bible is "the bible" IYO? Or does it matter? How about this translation:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Do you believe mercy triumphs over judgement? Yes or no?

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Then you should have no problem with listing those verses.
There are many translations. I read as many as possible to get to a more accurate translation ---including the Mechanical Transliteration of the Hebrew.

The verses you quoted say nothing about a 2nd chance after death.

Mercy for the saved yes---for those who believe in Jesus as their Savior and choose Him and follow Him and live as He would have them--there is mercy for those.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

mmksparbud said:

The verses you quoted say nothing about a 2nd chance after death.

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Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

If God casts no one off forever, then endless annihilation is against Scripture & false.

ClementofA said:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

If God casts no one off forever, then endless annihilation is against Scripture & false.

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Right--for those that choose to follow Him. David asked that question a few times. You are just taking a part of that verse and not reading it in context.

Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Lam 3:35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
Lam 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
Lam 3:42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

Now about those verses for 2nd chances after death and hell---neither of which are mentioned above.

Mat_24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat_24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen_7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Gen_7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

God had Noah and his family and the animals go into the ark, then He shut them in. They waited 7 days and then the flood came. Everyone outside, both animals, women, children and everything died that breathed on the land. When time is up, it is up and God does not hold back His judgment.
Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Dan_12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan_12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There was no 2nd chance for those outside the ark---and no 2nd chance after the 2nd death.

mmksparbud said:

But you, and those like you, who teach there is a 2nd chance after death and hell will have to answer to God for all those who believed you and left off choosing God now, for they will wait for after He comes to change their minds.

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But you, and those like you, who teach there is - NO - 2nd chance after death and hell will have to answer to God for all those who believed you and left off choosing God now, because...they rejected God because you portayed him as a demonic monster who annihilates people forever. And yet the Bible says He is Love, Omnipotent, Merciful, Good & does good, love your enemies, etc. They (and many millions) did not believe in God because the God you presented was a self-contradictory hypocrite. Love Omnipotent will hold you people responsible for portraying His image falsely & causing the nations to blaspheme & curse His name.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

mmksparbud said:

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

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New International Version
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

English Standard Version
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Berean Study Bible
For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Berean Literal Bible
For judgment without mercy will be to the one not having shown mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

New American Standard Bible
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

NET Bible
For judgment is merciless for the one who has shown no mercy. But mercy triumphs over judgment.

Weymouth New Testament
For he who shows no mercy will have judgement given against him without mercy; but mercy triumphs over judgement.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

mmksparbud said:

Right--for those that choose to follow Him. David asked that question a few times. You are just taking a part of that verse and not reading it in context.

Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Lam 3:35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
Lam 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
Lam 3:42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

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There is nothing in the context that erases the plain meaning of:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

If God casts no one off forever, then endless annihilation is against Scripture & false.

mmksparbud said:

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

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For much different translations see:

New International Version
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

English Standard Version
and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

Berean Literal Bible
and he swore by the One living to the ages of the ages, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, "There will be no more delay!

New American Standard Bible
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-6.htm

ClementofA said:

But you, and those like you, who teach there is - NO - 2nd chance after death and hell will have to answer to God for all those who believed you and left off choosing God now, because...they rejected God because you portayed him as a demonic monster who annihilates people forever. And yet the Bible says He is Love, Omnipotent, Merciful, Good & does good, love your enemies, etc. They (and many millions) did not believe in God because the God you presented was a self-contradictory hypocrite. Love Omnipotent will hold you people responsible for portraying His image falsely & causing the nations to blaspheme & curse His name.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

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And the bible sys there will come a judgement day! And you teach a false doctrine that will end up with people loosing their salvation by putting it off. Permanent death is not monstrous, everlasting burning hell is. There are only 2 choices---which hell you are going to believe in. Annihilation or everlasting torment. There is no such thing as no hell, the bible is very clear you have presented not one text that declares there will be a 2nd chance after hell.

Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat_18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luk_10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat_18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luk_10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Jas_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Jas_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

ClementofA said:

For much different translations see:

New International Version
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

English Standard Version
and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

Berean Literal Bible
and he swore by the One living to the ages of the ages, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, "There will be no more delay!

New American Standard Bible
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-6.htm

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Yup---no more delay--times up!! He will come at the appointed time.

A: NO! ...He knows all....forgives and forgets sins of believers

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My (Jesus) word,
and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and
does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Judgment: the NEW "Lake of Fire": Revelation 19-20

19: 20
But the beast (Satan/followers?) was captured,
and with him the false prophet (anti-christ) who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.
With these signs he (anti-christ) had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
and worshiped his image.(false world religion)
The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery LAKE of burning sulfur.

20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,
where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.
They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (the NEW TORMENTS !)

20:14-15 Then death and HADES were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the SECOND death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "Book of Life", (believer)
he was thrown into the lake of fire.(unbelievers)


Romans 1:18 [ Unbelief and Its Consequences ]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men
who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Matthew 25...Jesus Judgment of the NATIONS (ethnos / societies)
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory,
and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him;
and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
46 These (unbelieving goat NATIONS) will go away into "eternal punishment",
but the righteous (believing sheep NATIONS) into "eternal (spiritual) life".”

Hebrews 9 (NASB)
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin,
to those who eagerly await Him.

Believers: only their WORKS will be judged.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS
2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)
10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

UNbelievers: sentenced to the "lake of fire"...separated from God for eternity without hope of reconciliation.

mmksparbud said:

Yup---no more delay--times up!! He will come at the appointed time.

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So what does this have to do with universal salvation?

mmksparbud said:

And the bible sys there will come a judgement day!

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Even for Christians. So what? That doesn't prove universal salvation is not Biblical.

mmksparbud said:

And you teach a false doctrine that will end up with people loosing their salvation by putting it off.

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Really? I have the power to cause someone to be lost forever by your monster Hitler god, and this loving omnipotent god of yours is helpless to do anything about it? And what of the millions who've rejected Christ because they thought He was like your loving Hitler god, since that disgusted them & they considered him to be a hypocrite & unloving?

mmksparbud said:

Permanent death is not monstrous, everlasting burning hell is.

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Do you think Hitler was not a monster for gasing the Jews to death? Your god gases them for all eternity. He's an eternal Hitler. A Hitler for eternity.

mmksparbud said:

There are only 2 choices---which hell you are going to believe in. Annihilation or everlasting torment.

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Wrong. There is a 3rd possibility. Universalism.

mmksparbud said:

There is no such thing as no hell, the bible is very clear

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Obviously there is "hell". Who said otherwise? Hell is temporary until all in hell get saved. Then God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Phil.2:9-11, etc)

mmksparbud said:

you have presented not one text that declares there will be a 2nd chance after hell.

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I've presented texts showing universal salvation. See above.

mmksparbud said:

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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Some of those verses you posted are duplicates of the same verse.

None of them support endless annihilation.

Many, if not all, have been addressed here before. Which those interested can find searching the forum.

For example, Matthew 10:28:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA said:

So what does this have to do with universal salvation?

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No such thing.