Why I am 7th Day Adventist, and not of any other faith...

pshun2404

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1. She never gave any prophetic prediction of the second coming being in 1844. She never claimed she was even a prophet at that time. Rather she was a teenager. Not at all the leader of anything.

2. Why in the world would I want to argue for Ellen White as a prophet to someone that does not accept certain Bible truths on doctrine that I happen to think are the right doctrine? That seems backwards.

Believe what you will. She was a wonderful and wise and intelligent lady under the grace of Christ but if you stumble on one point of the law you are guilty of breaking it all (thanks be to God for His grace through Christ) and she, like us all, did that on at least one occasion and regarding many points.

For one example, though I believe keeping the Sabbath holy is wonderful (though never required in the New Covenant teachings) did you know that attending synagogue, Temple, church, etc., ON the Sabbath day is NOT Torah nor was EVER commanded by God? God says do NOT go out of your place..observe it IN (within) ALL (plural) YOUR (personal) DWELLINGS (your home space). This Pharisaic TRADITION of all going to synagogue/church only became the CUSTOM or manner of the Jews (not even close to all Israelites) during and after the Babylonian Captivity.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will. The designation for a particular day where all travel and come together for corporate worship in a single place is only commanded (as part of the Mosaic Covenant not the New Covenant in Christ) on the three High Sabbaths (no other time). Therefore a specific day for this practice is irrelevant as far as the Torah is concerned.
 
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BobRyan

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Believe what you will.

Thanks

We have free will.

This is not a debate area for figuring out if non-SDAs accept Ellen White as a prophet. We all assume they do not.

Obviously.


For one example, though I believe keeping the Sabbath holy is wonderful (though never required in the New Covenant teachings) did you know that attending synagogue, Temple, church, etc., ON the Sabbath day is NOT Torah nor was EVER commanded by God?

Interesting speculation. I prefer the actual Bible however.

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will
 
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pshun2404

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We have free will.

This is not a debate area for figuring out if non-SDAs accept Ellen White as a prophet. We all assume they do not.

Obviously.

Interesting speculation. I prefer the actual Bible however.

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will

Sadly, you imply in your cut and paste, that I was not looking at the scriptures. This is a misnomer since my position is based squarely on what the Scriptures say and not on what people have taught me that they mean. I am glad you listed Leviticus 23 because that is a perfect example. Like strict Calvinists you are not quoting the entire Scripture in context so that it appears to make your point but here we will see it all.

Starting in Exodus 16:29, shortly after the commandment is given (One that Deuteronomy assures us was never given to the fathers) tells us “…abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

And as for Leviticus 23:3 it reads “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto the LORD in all your dwellings.

As for Isaiah this is merely saying from one Sabbath to the next which is EVERY DAY.

And yes “convocation” does implicate a gathering but the question was WHERE we are to convocate and the Scriptures are clear.

Now after the synagogue system was invented (in Babylon) it became a “tradition of men” but a tradition none the less...It is written that Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath “as was His custom” Paul did so “as was his manner” NOT because it is the commandment of the Lord (which it is not). Until after the return (Ezra/Nehemiah) one cannot find ONE instance where the Israelites left their place on the Sabbath and travelled to a Tabernacle. Temple, OR Synagogue on the 7th day.

As for Acts 18:4, nice spin...of course at this time before Christ was even being preached there the synagogue would be the place to go and YES the post-Babylonian Jewish people (of the former Kingdom of Judah) and the Greeks who had later converted to Judaism would be there...that is a non-point. It was the custom among the Jews following their return.

Paul teaches, Romans 14:5-6 (KJV)

5 One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regards the day, regards it unto the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eats not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks.

Judge no man according to the day he keeps for our rest is in Christ!
 
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BobRyan

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Believe what you will.

Thanks

We have free will.

This is not a debate area for figuring out if non-SDAs accept Ellen White as a prophet. We all assume they do not.

Obviously.


For one example, though I believe keeping the Sabbath holy is wonderful (though never required in the New Covenant teachings) did you know that attending synagogue, Temple, church, etc., ON the Sabbath day is NOT Torah nor was EVER commanded by God?

Interesting speculation. I prefer the actual Bible however.

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will

Sadly, you imply in your cut and paste, that I was not looking at the scriptures.

You are of course free to look at any material you wish. And you can speculate as you wish.

My post simply stated that I prefer the actual Bible.

This is a misnomer since my position is based squarely on what the Scriptures say and not on what people have taught me that they mean.

And yet you post that no Bible text directs us to have "holy convocation" to meet for corporate worship on the Bible Sabbath -- after reading this?

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

I am glad you listed Leviticus 23 because that is a perfect example. Like strict Calvinists you are not quoting the entire Scripture in context so that it appears to make your point

Like someone "quoting themselves" and not the text at all - you making a hollow accusation and then offer no proof of it at all.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

And as for Leviticus 23:3 it reads “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto the LORD in all your dwellings.

And so of course - all Israel gathered for worship in the Temple and in the synagogues on the Bible Sabbath ... in the NT they gather even by "the river" on the Bible Sabbath if no Synagogue was available.

As for Isaiah this is merely saying from one Sabbath to the next which is EVERY DAY.

Not true.

Hannah brought Samuel a new set of clothes "from year to year" (does not mean "every day")

The saints gather for worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a term never used to mean "every day" in all of scripture.

Isaiah 66 gives TWO distinct cycles "from new moon to new moon" AND "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a monthly cycle and a weekly cycle... not "every day"

Bible details matter.

And yes “convocation” does implicate a gathering

obviously.

It is written that Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath “as was His custom” Paul did so “as was his manner”

True. And we are "Christians"

The "Command" is for "Holy Convocation".

I never argue that if one is on a camping trip and cannot attend a church service that a family gathering for worship on Sabbath is not "Holy Convocation" -- I think you are trying to "spin" this.

As for Acts 18:4, nice spin...of course at this time before Christ was even being preached there the synagogue would be the place to go and YES the post-Babylonian Jewish people (of the former Kingdom of Judah) and the Greeks who had later converted to Judaism would be there

That was true every Sabbath.

But Acts 18:4 is specifically about Gospel preaching and worship on Sabbath. In fact on "Every Sabbath".

No such "every-week-day-1" gathering for Gospel preaching and worship in all of the NT.


Paul teaches, Romans 14:5-6 (KJV)

5 One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day

Does not mention the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments at all.
The one who "esteems" is in fact "observing the day" in Rom 14 as a holy day.

6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

It refers to the annual holy days of Lev 23

Paul flatly condemns observing every day as a holy day in places like Gal 4 where observing pagan holy days is outright condemned.

And he says "he who does not work - neither let him eat"


 
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pshun2404

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We have free will.

This is not a debate area for figuring out if non-SDAs accept Ellen White as a prophet. We all assume they do not.

Obviously.

Interesting speculation. I prefer the actual Bible however.

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will

You are of course free to look at any material you wish. And you can speculate as you wish.

My post simply stated that I prefer the actual Bible.

And yet you post that no Bible text directs us to have "holy convocation" to meet for corporate worship on the Bible Sabbath -- after reading this?

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Like someone "quoting themselves" and not the text at all - you making a hollow accusation and then offer no proof of it at all.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

And as for Leviticus 23:3 it reads “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto the LORD in all your dwellings.

And so of course - all Israel gathered for worship in the Temple and in the synagogues on the Bible Sabbath ... in the NT they gather even by "the river" on the Bible Sabbath if no Synagogue was available.

Not true.

Hannah brought Samuel a new set of clothes "from year to year" (does not mean "every day")

The saints gather for worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a term never used to mean "every day" in all of scripture.

Isaiah 66 gives TWO distinct cycles "from new moon to new moon" AND "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a monthly cycle and a weekly cycle... not "every day"

Bible details matter. obviously.

True. And we are "Christians"

The "Command" is for "Holy Convocation".

I never argue that if one is on a camping trip and cannot attend a church service that a family gathering for worship on Sabbath is not "Holy Convocation" -- I think you are trying to "spin" this.

That was true every Sabbath.

But Acts 18:4 is specifically about Gospel preaching and worship on Sabbath. In fact on "Every Sabbath".

No such "every-week-day-1" gathering for Gospel preaching and worship in all of the NT.

5 One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day

Does not mention the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments at all.
The one who "esteems" is in fact "observing the day" in Rom 14 as a holy day.

6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

It refers to the annual holy days of Lev 23

Paul flatly condemns observing every day as a holy day in places like Gal 4 where observing pagan holy days is outright condemned.

And he says "he who does not work - neither let him eat"

First I have to thank you for misrepresenting everything I said (again) which of course I expected.

I did use "the Actual Bible" I just included the rest of the verses you are taught to 'cut and paste'.

Secondly I did not exclude or ignore the "Holy Convocation" I merely showed what the ACTUAL BIBLE says "where" this is to take place (as opposed o what you were taught this means).

Also "new moon to another new moon" (like Sabbath to Sabbath), because of the noun translated "to another", implies the cycle of an entire month, rather than ON THE new moon which would imply a particular DAY, and likewise with from Sabbath to Sabbath, hence the entire week...which happens to be true. As for this declaring a specific day see Isaiah 1:13 so you can tell the difference (hopefully).

Since Christ people now worship HIM everyday (I certainly do)...not implicating your incorrect "eisegesis" of what I said (not what you say I meant) that every day or any day IS the Sabbath. I never said that.

As for "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day
"Does not mention the 7th day Sabbath" you are correct it does not mention it and I am glad I NEVER said it did. But as for it referring to the general Holy days of Leviticus 23 (which you by the way quoted from applying your original cut and paste) it also does "not mention" these (and I NEVER said it did). See the difference? I post what the ACTUAL BIBLE says, and you retort with what it allegedly means. You cannot see that? Exegesis verses Eisegesis? NO?

I do understand believe me...I was once a person whose opinion had been so shaped by a denomination's apologetic I defended it with all the arguments I had been convinced of. So I know that at this point you cannot just accept what it PLAINLY says without automatically looping into the teachings of what it means.

After the Commandment was given as part of that Covenant agreement neither Moses or any Israelite (save the Levites assigned there) goes to the Tabernacle or later to the Temple or to any weekly synagogue EVER on the 7th day in the ACTUAL BIBLE (there is not one single example) until Babylon (and this only the remnant of the Kingdom of Judah).

Now by this true fact clearly presented in the ACTUAL BIBLE am I saying that it is bad or a violation of Sabbath law to attend church on the 7th day? NO! It is good, and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, but as being a required day for this purpose, or a practice that separates the true sheep from the goats, that is not "the ACTUAL BIBLE" at all...it is the interpretation (what these things mean) that you have been convinced of. There are only three times a year when ALL Israel is REQUIRED or EXPECTED to gather corporately in such a place as a Tabernacle or Temple and that is on the three High Sabbaths which can fall on any week day according to the new HOLY calendar that begins in Exodus (at the 1st of Nisan).
 
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BobRyan

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Believe what you will.

Thanks

We have free will.

This is not a debate area for figuring out if non-SDAs accept Ellen White as a prophet. We all assume they do not.

Obviously.


For one example, though I believe keeping the Sabbath holy is wonderful (though never required in the New Covenant teachings) did you know that attending synagogue, Temple, church, etc., ON the Sabbath day is NOT Torah nor was EVER commanded by God?

Interesting speculation. I prefer the actual Bible however.

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will

Sadly, you imply in your cut and paste, that I was not looking at the scriptures.

You are of course free to look at any material you wish. And you can speculate as you wish.

My post simply stated that I prefer the actual Bible.

This is a misnomer since my position is based squarely on what the Scriptures say and not on what people have taught me that they mean.

And yet you post that no Bible text directs us to have "holy convocation" to meet for corporate worship on the Bible Sabbath -- after reading this?

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.


And as for Leviticus 23:3 it reads “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto the LORD in all your dwellings.

And so of course - all Israel gathered for worship in the Temple and in the synagogues on the Bible Sabbath ... in the NT they gather even by "the river" on the Bible Sabbath if no Synagogue was available.

As for Isaiah this is merely saying from one Sabbath to the next which is EVERY DAY.

Not true.

Hannah brought Samuel a new set of clothes "from year to year" (does not mean "every day")

The saints gather for worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a term never used to mean "every day" in all of scripture.

Isaiah 66 gives TWO distinct cycles "from new moon to new moon" AND "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a monthly cycle and a weekly cycle... not "every day"

Bible details matter.

And yes “convocation” does implicate a gathering

obviously.

It is written that Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath “as was His custom” Paul did so “as was his manner”

True. And we are "Christians"

The "Command" is for "Holy Convocation".

I never argue that if one is on a camping trip and cannot attend a church service that a family gathering for worship on Sabbath is not "Holy Convocation" -- I think you are trying to "spin" this.

As for Acts 18:4, nice spin...of course at this time before Christ was even being preached there the synagogue would be the place to go and YES the post-Babylonian Jewish people (of the former Kingdom of Judah) and the Greeks who had later converted to Judaism would be there

That was true every Sabbath.

But Acts 18:4 is specifically about Gospel preaching and worship on Sabbath. In fact on "Every Sabbath".

No such "every-week-day-1" gathering for Gospel preaching and worship in all of the NT.


Paul teaches, Romans 14:5-6 (KJV)

5 One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day

Does not mention the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments at all.
The one who "esteems" is in fact "observing the day" in Rom 14 as a holy day.

6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

It refers to the annual holy days of Lev 23

Paul flatly condemns observing every day as a holy day in places like Gal 4 where observing pagan holy days is outright condemned.

And he says "he who does not work - neither let him eat"




First I have to thank you for misrepresenting everything I said (again) which of course I expected.

Correction - in real life the simple fact that we differ is not the same thing as "misrepresenting" someone.


Secondly I did not exclude or ignore the "Holy Convocation" I merely showed what the ACTUAL BIBLE says "where" this is to take place (as opposed o what you were taught this means).

Which did absolutely nothing to refute/delete/change the point that even if in some cases someone observes Sabbath at home without going to church - they are still commanded to come before God and worship from Sabbath to Sabbath in Isaiah 66:23 for holy convocation and that going to church is doing that very thing ... in fact "all mankind" is to do it (it does not get more corporate-worship than that.)

And what is more the ENTIRE CHAPTER of Lev 23 is in regard to "Days of Holy Convocation" which at ALL examples of corporate worship.

The point remains.

Bible details do matter as it turns out.
 
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BobRyan

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Also "new moon to another new moon" (like Sabbath to Sabbath), because of the noun translated "to another", implies the cycle of an entire month, rather than ON THE new moon which would imply a particular DAY, and likewise with from Sabbath to Sabbath, hence the entire week...which happens to be true. As for this declaring a specific day see Isaiah 1:13 so you can tell the difference (hopefully).
.

nonsense

1 Sam 2:19 19 And his mother would make him a little robe and bring it to him from year to year when she would come up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice

Does NOT mean "daily"
Nether does "From Sabbath to Sabbath" ever mean daily in all of scripture.
Neither does "from New Moon to new Moon" EVER mean "daily" in all of scripture

Is 66:23 from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

Your -edit-speculation suggests for us that this is rendered as "daily AND daily shall all mankind come to bow down before Me" -- which is utter nonsense - and we both know it.


your choice to ignore Isaiah 66:23 and focus on Isaiah 1:13 does not help your case a bit.

Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

1. ALL of them are classed as "assemblies" the very thing you reject.

2. NOTHING in that text says that the weekly Sabbath and the New Moon celebrations are "daily" or are "the same day" being observed.

And we both know it.

Details matter
 
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BobRyan

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As for "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day
"Does not mention the 7th day Sabbath" you are correct it does not mention it

What is more in that chapter of Romans 14 "to esteem" is to "observe" the day according to vs 6..

"One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day"

Thus it is that the various annual holy days selected by one person or all of the annual holy days of Lev 23 (Bible approved days of holy convocation) selected by another person to be "esteemed" and by that the text means "observed" does nothing to the much-imagined "while ignoring the Bible Sabbath of the Ten Commandments"

and I am glad I NEVER said it did. But as for it referring to the general Holy days of Leviticus 23 (which you by the way quoted from applying your original cut and paste) it also does "not mention" these

But it is clear "in context" with Galatians 4 that given that SOME days are flatly condemned as pagan and as indicating the loss of salvation if one observes them (stated clearly in Gal 4) -- it is clear that the Romans 14 can ONLY be the "Bible approved annual holy days" of Lev 23.

This is irrefutable.

read the Bible.

Accept what it says.
 
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BobRyan

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After the Commandment was given as part of that Covenant agreement neither Moses or any Israelite (save the Levites assigned there) goes to the Tabernacle or later to the Temple or to any weekly synagogue EVER on the 7th day in the ACTUAL BIBLE

Utter nonsense.

Matt 12 Priests were officiating services on the Sabbath.
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

2 Chron 23:8 So the Levites and all Judah did according to all that Jehoiada the priest commanded. And each one of them took his men who were to come in on the Sabbath, with those who were to go out on the Sabbath, for Jehoiada the priest did not dismiss any of the divisions.

Your own reference to Isaiah 1:13 shows it to be included in the days of "Assembly"

Lev 23:3 a day of "holy convocation" just like the other days of Holy Convocation in Lev 23 in terms of "assembly" such as Day of Atonement.
 
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BobRyan

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There are only three times a year when ALL Israel is REQUIRED or EXPECTED to gather corporately in such a place as a Tabernacle or Temple and that is on the three High Sabbaths

That is a bit of misdirection.

I have not claimed that all of Israel ran back to Jerusalem each Sabbath to have holy convocation in the temple... and we both know it.

My argument is that the days of "holy Convocation" included the weekly Sabbath of the TEN Commandments. you admit that Christ's example is one of weekly Sabbath service attendance and that Paul's example is the same.

We are Christians... We follow Christ.
 
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pshun2404

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We have free will.

This is not a debate area for figuring out if non-SDAs accept Ellen White as a prophet. We all assume they do not.

Obviously.

Interesting speculation. I prefer the actual Bible however.

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

Now that IS the truth...do with it what you will

You are of course free to look at any material you wish. And you can speculate as you wish.

My post simply stated that I prefer the actual Bible.

And yet you post that no Bible text directs us to have "holy convocation" to meet for corporate worship on the Bible Sabbath -- after reading this?

Lev 23:3 the 7th day Sabbath is a day of "Holy Convocation"
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles gathered in the synagogue to hear Gospel preaching and to worship.

And as for Leviticus 23:3 it reads “Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto the LORD in all your dwellings.

And so of course - all Israel gathered for worship in the Temple and in the synagogues on the Bible Sabbath ... in the NT they gather even by "the river" on the Bible Sabbath if no Synagogue was available.

Not true.

Hannah brought Samuel a new set of clothes "from year to year" (does not mean "every day")

The saints gather for worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a term never used to mean "every day" in all of scripture.

Isaiah 66 gives TWO distinct cycles "from new moon to new moon" AND "from Sabbath to Sabbath" -- a monthly cycle and a weekly cycle... not "every day"

Bible details matter.

obviously.

True. And we are "Christians"

The "Command" is for "Holy Convocation".

I never argue that if one is on a camping trip and cannot attend a church service that a family gathering for worship on Sabbath is not "Holy Convocation" -- I think you are trying to "spin" this.

That was true every Sabbath.

But Acts 18:4 is specifically about Gospel preaching and worship on Sabbath. In fact on "Every Sabbath".

No such "every-week-day-1" gathering for Gospel preaching and worship in all of the NT.

5 One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day

Does not mention the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments at all.
The one who "esteems" is in fact "observing the day" in Rom 14 as a holy day.

6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

It refers to the annual holy days of Lev 23

Paul flatly condemns observing every day as a holy day in places like Gal 4 where observing pagan holy days is outright condemned.

And he says "he who does not work - neither let him eat"

Correction - in real life the simple fact that we differ is not the same thing as "misrepresenting" someone.

Which did absolutely nothing to refute/delete/change the point that even if in some cases someone observes Sabbath at home without going to church - they are still commanded to come before God and worship from Sabbath to Sabbath in Isaiah 66:23 for holy convocation and that going to church is doing that very thing ... in fact "all mankind" is to do it (it does not get more corporate-worship than that.)

And what is more the ENTIRE CHAPTER of Lev 23 is in regard to "Days of Holy Convocation" which at ALL examples of corporate worship.

The point remains.

Bible details do matter as it turns out.


I said “As for Acts 18:4, nice spin...of course at this time before Christ was even being preached there the synagogue would be the place to go and YES the post-Babylonian Jewish people (of the former Kingdom of Judah) and the Greeks who had later converted to Judaism would be there

And you replied “That was true every Sabbath.” But Acts 18:4 is specifically about Gospel preaching and worship on Sabbath. In fact on "Every Sabbath".

True and if YOU were Jewish or evangelizing to gain following among the Jewish people YOU would (should) do the same just as Paul was doing (to the Jew first)

As for “No such "every-week-day-1" gathering for Gospel preaching and worship in all of the NT”. That is just not true but I did not make that claim nor was I discussing that subject. Is 1st day gathering for worship something YOU wish to discuss?


I said “First I have to thank you for misrepresenting everything I said (again) which of course I expected.Which I did.

Then you said “Correction - in real life the simple fact that we differ is not the same thing as "misrepresenting" someone.”

True if that were the case (disagreement or difference is not equal to misrepresentation...but even this statement IS), BUT when one person makes it appear that one party is saying something they DID NOT say or puts words they did not use into their mouth it IS misrepresentation (which is what you have done in this exchange on more than one occasion). Just try and not do it again.


Following I will exegete Leviticus 23 for you since you insist on reading into it,
 
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pshun2404

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Leviticus 23


Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord...

We see on mention of OR command for everyone to leave their place OR to travel to another place for a common gathering.

5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

The 14th can be one any day of the week, and no one is commanded to leave their place

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

The 15th following the 14th can also be any day of the week (UB being from the 15th though the 21st and is a seven day feast)

7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

So here we have a 1st day Sabbath, and still no command to leave one’s place and go to another for corporate practice

8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

So the first and last day of this 7 day feast (an 8day feast if one adds Passover proper as the post Babylonian Pharisees did) are Sabbaths regardless of what week day they fall on (still no command to go outside one’s place)

10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

The raising up of the First fruits is always practiced since then on the weekly 1st day following the 7th day Sabbath within the feast of Unleavened Bread

15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.

17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord...21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Counting seven Sabbaths following first fruits, the NEXT DAY, the 50th day (a new 1st day) is Shavuot or Pentecost and is also a 1st day Sabbath (and this “statute” is to be proclaimed ON this day in ALL their dwellings...not the practice but the statute and this is PROCLAIMED)

Being on a 1st day, everyone is commanded to bring items to the Priest (wherever the sacrificing priest may be but this 1st day gathering is indeed one of the three Sabbaths where they went to the Tabernacle or Temple )

24 ...In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

On this 1st day (though can be any week day) we have another Sabbath...technically the sacrifice can be made anywhere...by anyone

27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God...32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Then on the 10nth (whatever week day) is another Sabbath and one that all gather for (whatever week day) and in all Israel this is the most important Sabbath because on this day (could be any week day) their past sins are atoned for (covered) for 1 year.

34 ...The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord. 35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein...39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Whatever day of the week it begins the 1st day and the 8th day (8th being a new first following a 7th) are Sabbaths on which all are to leave their place and gather together (Deuteronomy 16:6...they ARE commanded to do this on3 days each year)...what we see here is that a corporate gathering is Commanded on each of these 1st day Sabbaths.
 
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pshun2404

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nonsense

1 Sam 2:19 19 And his mother would make him a little robe and bring it to him from year to year when she would come up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice

Does NOT mean "daily"
Nether does "From Sabbath to Sabbath" ever mean daily in all of scripture.
Neither does "from New Moon to new Moon" EVER mean "daily" in all of scripture

Is 66:23 from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

Your -edit-speculation suggests for us that this is rendered as "daily AND daily shall all mankind come to bow down before Me" -- which is utter nonsense - and we both know it.


your choice to ignore Isaiah 66:23 and focus on Isaiah 1:13 does not help your case a bit.

Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

1. ALL of them are classed as "assemblies" the very thing you reject.

2. NOTHING in that text says that the weekly Sabbath and the New Moon celebrations are "daily" or are "the same day" being observed.

And we both know it.

Details matter

How you ever got all that (which I did not say) out of what I said is exactly what I mean by misrepresenting. Instead of attending to what I actually said from the ACTUAL BIBLE, you assume things I allegedly MEANT (therein lays the problem).

Everyday now there are people who bow before God and worship Him and yes these "assemblies" He never commanded are worthless to Him. And I do not reject assembling before the Lord which I have done sometimes on 1st day gatherings and also sometimes on 7th day gatherings. Still only three common assemblies are commanded (and those if you are part of that Covenant).
 
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pshun2404

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What is more in that chapter of Romans 14 "to esteem" is to "observe" the day according to vs 6..

"One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day"

Thus it is that the various annual holy days selected by one person or all of the annual holy days of Lev 23 (Bible approved days of holy convocation) selected by another person to be "esteemed" and by that the text means "observed" does nothing to the much-imagined "while ignoring the Bible Sabbath of the Ten Commandments"

But it is clear "in context" with Galatians 4 that given that SOME days are flatly condemned as pagan and as indicating the loss of salvation if one observes them (stated clearly in Gal 4) -- it is clear that the Romans 14 can ONLY be the "Bible approved annual holy days" of Lev 23.

This is irrefutable.

read the Bible.

Accept what it says.

Pishtosh! That is a classic example of interpretation according to one's presupposition. Galatians 4 is neither the context for this section of Romans and neither does it MEAN that Romans 14 is addressing the Holy Days of Leviticus 23...that is all eisegesis (being read into the text).

You have let your conditioned conclusion shape your interpretation, as opposed to letting what it SAYS (not what you are taught it means) shape your interpretation.
 
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pshun2404

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Utter nonsense.

Matt 12 Priests were officiating services on the Sabbath.
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

2 Chron 23:8 So the Levites and all Judah did according to all that Jehoiada the priest commanded. And each one of them took his men who were to come in on the Sabbath, with those who were to go out on the Sabbath, for Jehoiada the priest did not dismiss any of the divisions.

Your own reference to Isaiah 1:13 shows it to be included in the days of "Assembly"

Lev 23:3 a day of "holy convocation" just like the other days of Holy Convocation in Lev 23 in terms of "assembly" such as Day of Atonement.

You really must start reading what I said and not assume some arcane meaning (you do the same with the Scriptures)...I clearly said save the Levites who were assigned there...which means YES they would be there daily (even on the 7th day)

What a great example of "Spin" in where you try to use 2 Chronicles 23 with the 'cut and paste' method of stringing together sections of passages and unrelated passages to give the appearance of support for your point (I do understand! I really do. This is exactly how many denominational leaders shape our opinion and brainwash us. As I said, for about a decade I was utterly convinced of and vehemently defended the Calvin's Institutes position...till the Lord opened my eyes).

Did you even read all the chapter...it was a covenant made with the King (not God's covenant) and those men (chosen out of the tribes) who went in and out on the Sabbath, were only one third of that smaller number, and also were ONLY MEN...
 
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pshun2404

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That is a bit of misdirection.

I have not claimed that all of Israel ran back to Jerusalem each Sabbath to have holy convocation in the temple... and we both know it.

My argument is that the days of "holy Convocation" included the weekly Sabbath of the TEN Commandments. you admit that Christ's example is one of weekly Sabbath service attendance and that Paul's example is the same.

We are Christians... We follow Christ.

First off AGAIN BOB....I did not say you said that...(misrepresentation by putting words into my mouth based on the assumption of "meant" not what was "said")

Secondly YES, they attended, as was their custom (not because they were commanded by God to do so because they were NOT)...it was also their custom to observe and celebrate Channukah, wear a Tallith, cover their head when they prayed, and more...by your logic (do as Christ did) then by obligation you must also do all of these. Do you? But Paul did!!!! You mean you don't? Uh-oh!

Ahhh! So glad I am resting in Christ at the right hand of the Father, freed from the bondage to ordinances written in stone.
 
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BobRyan

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Secondly YES, they attended, as was their custom (not because they were commanded by God to do so

1. They were commanded by God to keep Sabbath "as a day of HOLY Convocation" Lev 23:3. The point remains.
2. All mankind "Commanded by God" to assemble on Sabbath and New Moon cycles Is 66:23 -- the point remains.
3. Gentiles blessed specifically for Sabbath keeping Isaiah 56:5-8 -- the point remains.
4. Special and specific Temple Sacrifices/services for priests to perform on the weekly Bible Sabbath
- Numbers 28:9-10
9 And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
10 This is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.​


5. Specific "Sabbath Pavilion" to be opened only on Sabbath for congregation and leaders.
Ezek 46:1-3
‘Thus says the Lord God, “The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on The Sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon. 2 The prince shall enter by way of the porch of the gate from outside and stand by the post of the gate. Then the priests shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate and then go out; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening. 3 The people of the land shall also worship at the doorway of that gate before the Lord on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.​

That is at a time of "burnt offerings" and Hebrews 10:4-10 reminds us that animal sacrifices were no longer "legit" after the cross.

2 Kings 4:23 -- special times of gathering and worship on Sabbath and New Moon.
23 So he said, “Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath.
And she said, “It is well.”​

The point remains - they were not only COMMANDED to keep Sabbath as a day of "Holy convocation" but they ALSO were "gathering" on those days for worship. The fact that they also had home-church does not in the least delete these Bible facts.

Christ kept Sabbath so also did Paul -- we are Christians. We follow Christ's example.

the point remains.

.I clearly said save the Levites who were assigned there...which means YES they would be there daily (even on the 7th day)

Sadly your comment misses the Bible instruction for Levites to offer special sacrifices, and the special services made available for Sabbath as just shown you in the text above.

Bible details matter.

You have let your conditioned conclusion shape your interpretation, as opposed to letting what it SAYS (not what you are taught it means) shape your interpretation.

That appears to perfectly summarize the mistake you have made in light of these texts to the contrary.
 
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BobRyan

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Pishtosh! That is a classic example of interpretation according to one's presupposition. Galatians 4 is neither the context for this section of Romans and neither does it MEAN that Romans 14 is addressing the Holy Days of Leviticus 23...that is all eisegesis (being read into the text). .

If you think that sort of fluff handwaiving is deleting the "details" we see as already mentioned... details entirely ignored in your post because you cannot refute them... you are sadly mistaken.

Gal 4 proves - there are days that are NOT to be observed - they are pagan days - it is irrefutable.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Rom 14 - proves that "one man observes EVERY day" of the Bible approved days - not of the PAGAN days... this conclusion is irrefutable.

Adding a "pishtosh" to your post and a lot huff and harrumph is not changing these details that you are ignoring.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

Your argument is "with the text"
 
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James Richards

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Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law, in Christ), we have been released from the law..."

The law cannot touch us because of our position in Christ. Clearly though, the law hasn't been abolished. Our humanity died its demands in Christ. Therefore it was our sinful life that died in Christ Jesus when He was crucified. See Romans 6:6/7:4. The law is satisfied, not abolished. The believer is dead as far as the justice of the law is concerned and yet alive "in Christ Jesus" before God's law in heaven. We are perfect in Christ.

Now, let's read the rest of Romans 7:6

"so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Do you know what that means? The new way of the Spirit refers to the NC. The old way of written code refers to the OC, which is "obey & live", "disobey & die".

What does the Spirit do as we learn to let Him lead? Doesn't He write the principle of God's law, love, in our hearts? Yes. So please the law of God hasn't been made void. The believer is not under it because no one is living Christ life and thus all stand condemned. To be condemned means death...the 2nd death. So Christ has delivered us from under the curse, but not so we could enjoy sin.

What law are we speaking about?

Again, Romans 7:7

For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

From what law does it state "Do not covet"? Right, the moral law.

So while the believer is not under the law the law is being written in His heart so that he will not condone and practice sin as a lifestyle.
This is very good, an excellent post. We are not under the condemnation of the law, in this sense the Christian is not under law. However, this cannot be considered a licence to sin for the born again believer for the law is in their heart, and you therefore want to obey it, live as God desires you to live
 
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