Christianity and Capital Punishment

discipler7 said:

If USA can accept about 30,000 American persons dying from vehicular accidents every year, then USA can accept about 1 person being wrongly or mistakenly or accidentally executed every 8 months.

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Because God is just, there will be an accounting upon someone for that man's unrighteous murder--because that's what it is.

So who should God hold accountable?

Yarddog said:

Yep, what "you" read in it.

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I said I paraphrased and I said "what I read in it." Yes, that is true. That is the way I read it, and it works just like that as well. Telling Peter once to put up his sword at that moment, in that place, and that time does not define the behavior of mankind from then on. There are too many other places where a weapon is required and is due to be used.

marineimaging said:

I said I paraphrased and I said "what I read in it." Yes, that is true. That is the way I read it, and it works just like that as well. Telling Peter once to put up his sword at that moment, in that place, and that time does not define the behavior of mankind from then on. There are too many other places where a weapon is required and is due to be used.

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There is a big difference between mankind and his disciples. Jesus told Peter to put away his sword because the one who lives by the sword dies by the sword. We don't see the disciples carrying swords after that.

ViaCrucis said:

As a Christian I believe I am called to promote life, peace, and justice.

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If only Jesus taught such things, then the Romans would have abolished the death penalty.
And, Jesus would still be here teaching us all how to live.

Point being, Jesus never taught you could rule a secular world with Christian rules.
This is the dream of Popes, that they could rule the secular world like before.
If you are a Lutheran, you should be well aware of how futile that is.

akaDaScribe said:

I don't think "to err is human" is an acceptable standard for purposely taking someone's life. These things sound good on paper until it's you or someone close to you it happens to. This is why I submit that an overwhelming evidence position on this would probably be the most agreeable. If my son was falsely accused of murder or some other crime, which happens more often than you might think, I don't think he should be put to death and just call it collateral damage. If my son was caught on video shooting up a mall, it would grieve me, but i really have nothing to say. I'm just saying there needs to be a higher standard of evidence than a reasonable doubt for capital punishment.

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"To live is Christ, to die is GAIN". I don't understand Christians thinking it is the worst thing in the world to die "early".

SolomonVII said:

The better question might be would it be immoral or anti Christian if the were given the death penalty?

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Jesus never taught against the secular government using the death penalty.

There is a big difference between religious rules and secular rules. Those that think they should be the same don't understand human nature. Human nature is sinful and needs deterrents. Those that abide to the spiritual nature, can abide to spiritual deterrents. Those that reject God's spiritual nature will never be deterred with spiritual deterrents. They need worldly deterrents.

Philip_B said:

I am gobsmacked.

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Would you be gobsmacked if the death of one innocent person prevented the death of others?

marineimaging said:

Yep, but what I said is what I read in it.

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Yarddog said:

Yep, what "you" read in it.

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I could read it the same way, so count me in too.
Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do." He is the epitome of innocent that suffered wrongly the death penalty.

Did Jesus say forgive them for killing the two beside them? He said nothing about the Roman death penalty which was very "inhumane". Even the penitent criminal acknowledge the justice of being put to death.

Please don't apply religious laws in the secular world. Jesus never taught such.

Philip_B said:

And the reality is that we know that capital punishment is not a deterrent.

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Maybe that is the reality in Australia, but it is not the reality in the U.S.
Same with the "reality" of your gun laws. Two different countries with two different levels of "progressiveness". This thread should base their arguments on scripture though, not the latest secular trends.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Jesus never taught against the secular government using the death penalty.

s.

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Studying what Jesus taught, and refrained from teaching, is always going to be the start of an informed answer.
Being more Catholic than the pope is one thing; being more Christian than Christ is a whole other different level of hubris.

SolomonVII said:

being more Christian than Christ is a whole other different level of hubris.

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The ironic thing being that without the death penalty,
Jesus would not have redeemed us.

And no one can complain about another being as "unjustly" executed.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Would you be gobsmacked if the death of one innocent person prevented the death of others?

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So I take it that you are arguing that the ends justify the means.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Maybe that is the reality in Australia, but it is not the reality in the U.S.

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The Washington Times speaks differently
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...iminals/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.85a5a45d5892

AnticipateHisComing said:

And no one can complain about another being as "unjustly" executed.

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It is really difficult for someone who has been executed to complain, so I will take you point to a point, but that indeed is the point, the state sanctioned execution of an innocent person should fill us all with alarm.


Let me be clear, The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. When we take away through the offices of the state, we need to be sure that the state gets it right, because there is no going back, and if justice in not done, which it is not when an innocent person is executed, then we have failed. I don't feel these moral precepts are culture bound, and they apply in Australia as much as they apply in the US. I am not holding us up as a shining example, we have more than our fair share of things where justice is not truly being served.

discipler7 said:

If USA can accept about 30,000 American persons dying from vehicular accidents every year, then USA can accept about 1 person being wrongly or mistakenly or accidentally executed every 8 months.

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Alright, every year the government has a lottery and picks fifty names at random. Those fifty people are then summarily executed. I mean, it's less people than are killed by lightning strikes every year in the US, so obviously this should be acceptable to you--at least by your logic.

-CryptoLutheran

AnticipateHisComing said:

The ironic thing being that without the death penalty,
Jesus would not have redeemed us.

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Ah, well looks like we should bring back crucifixion then. I'll write my congressman immediately with your great idea.

-CryptoLutheran

zippy2006 said:

By now it should be well-known that Pope Francis has revised the Catholic Catechism to say that capital punishment is inadmissible. What do you think about the relationship between Christianity and capital punishment? I want to hear from all Christians, and I also want to give Catholics a place to argue. The topic is two-fold: capital punishment in general, and also specifically within the Catholic Church.

Some relevant links:

• Pope Francis Changes Catechism... (NCR)
• History of Capital Punishment in Catholicism (Stack Exchange)
• Capital Punishment and Christianity (BBC)
• Arguments for and against (Public Discourse)
• By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed: A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment (book)
• Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition (book)
• Video interview on capital punishment with Catholic philosopher, Edward Feser (Daily Wire)

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1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Our God knew what He meant with the times. For those which many call good, there is a time for what men also call evil. This time and this calling in the negative according to men who judge are of God as well. Capital punishment is not meted out to a man for one simple bad deed. He brings with him to the court hearing a life of bad decisions, of wrong doings, of living and enjoying evil rather than living in goodness. He is not the local pastor or teacher caught up in a moment of uncontrollable rage. No, here is the man who has killed, maimed, robbed, raped, and based on the evidence will do it again. Or did it with such malice and disregard for humanity that the evidence shows he is not redeemable, or the act was especially heinous enough to find himself at the death chamber. And it is the Law of the Land that took him to the death chamber and it was his deeds that unlocked the door to it. Not an innocent man and not a passive justice system. Still, we will never agree wholly.

ViaCrucis said:

Ah, well looks like we should bring back crucifixion then. I'll write my congressman immediately with your great idea.

-CryptoLutheran

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Yes, you should write to your Congressman or Congress-person.

discipler7 said:

Yes, abuses of the US legal system do happen which resulted in some being wrongly convicted of murder.
....... Abuses of the capitalist system also did happen during the 2008 US Housing and Stock Market crash/collapse which resulted in some being victims who lost all of their savings/money/retirement and homes. A few even committed suicide. Does that mean we should abolish the Stock and Housing Markets, like abolishing the death penalty.?

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I think what the problem really boils down to is the same problem for everything. It's not the system, it's the people. Most forms of government could be successful if people weren't so... sinful. The question then becomes, given that too many people are self-serving to ever have an in-corrupt government, how do we compensate for that?

In relation to capital punishment, I submit that having overwhelming evidence is a reasonable solution to avoiding executing innocent people. As far a capital punishment is concerned, we know that a significant number of crimes are done by repeat offenders, so there is no reason to believe murderers would be any different given the opportunity.

I do find it ironic though that people are ok with people being raped, murdered, and otherwise abused in prisons, but somehow consider it righteous to condemn people to those conditions for the rest of their lives. I think we should spend more time looking at the lack of control over behaviors in these prisons rather than focus on capital punishment that is seldom carried out in this country.

Philip_B said:

So I take it that you are arguing that the ends justify the means.

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It was not my argument, but a question that you and ViaCrucis dodge, do you think it better for one innocent to die to save many? You ignore the deaths of many "innocent" at the hands of criminals.

John 11:50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

As to the argument of the end justifies the means, you use the same rational to take away guns in your country. All secular decisions weigh the cost of a law with the fruit of a law. It is only a matter of extremes that one quotes "the end justifies the means".

Philip_B said:

The Washington Times speaks differently

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A liberal WAPO quotes a liberal study that matches what your country thinks. Your "proof" article quotes one that also says prisons do not deter crime. So I guess you should be arguing to abolish prisons also. When common sense goes out the door, there is no end to rationalization.

Philip_B said:

the state sanctioned execution of an innocent person should fill us all with alarm.

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

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I have argued and you ignore that the rules of the state are different than religious rules. You quote a religious law that should be followed by the religious.

Do you think religious laws should be used as secular laws?
Do you want to live where muslims apply their religious laws to all?

And if you wish to quote the OT, there is scripture where enemies of God and his people are punished/killed.

Philip_B said:

Let me be clear, The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. When we take away through the offices of the state, we need to be sure that the state gets it right, because there is no going back, and if justice in not done, which it is not when an innocent person is executed, then we have failed. I don't feel these moral precepts are culture bound, and they apply in Australia as much as they apply in the US. I am not holding us up as a shining example, we have more than our fair share of things where justice is not truly being served.

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The failure of justice in the state is to be expected as you admit.

One failure of justice does not invalidate the state to be a failure. The use of one failure to rationalize changing the state is destined to failure.

Extreme caution would set the speed limit to 20, then no one would die unjustly. Extreme caution would make all cars a mobile fortress, we would all drive big gas hog big trucks. Extreme caution would ban alcohol because so many die from it. Extreme caution would ban drugs because many die from them.... The laws nations develop are all compromises between control and liberty. Scripture never teaches this fallen world can be made perfect/just.

ViaCrucis said:

Alright, every year the government has a lottery and picks fifty names at random. Those fifty people are then summarily executed. I mean, it's less people than are killed by lightning strikes every year in the US, so obviously this should be acceptable to you--at least by your logic.

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If you treat intentional injustice the same as unintentional injustice,
then I treat unintentional ignorance the same as intentional ignorance.

And that was without a doubt an ignorant argument.

ViaCrucis said:

As a Christian I believe I am called to promote life, peace, and justice.

Click to expand...

AnticipateHisComing said:

If only Jesus taught such things, then the Romans would have abolished the death penalty.
And, Jesus would still be here teaching us all how to live.

Point being, Jesus never taught you could rule a secular world with Christian rules.
This is the dream of Popes, that they could rule the secular world like before.
If you are a Lutheran, you should be well aware of how futile that is.

Click to expand...

AnticipateHisComing said:

The ironic thing being that without the death penalty,
Jesus would not have redeemed us.

Click to expand...

ViaCrucis said:

Ah, well looks like we should bring back crucifixion then. I'll write my congressman immediately with your great idea.

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When you can't defend what you post, preferably with scripture, then yes you should switch to communicating with the secular.

Jesus' death is the epitome of unjust punishment to which all that wish to abolish capital punishment have no answer.