ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
So all you do depends on whether or not it is God's will for you. Was it God's will for you to wear the clothing you selected today? Yes, or you would have selected something else to wear.

It was God's will for me to wear what I wore today; so if I'd changed, or changed my mind 2 or 3 times, that would have been his will too?
a) why? Can't God make up his mind the first time what underwear I should put on?
b) why do you think, and where does it say, that his will is so detailed that it includes what we wear- the implication being that if you don't wear it it is a sin?
c) how is God glorified by me wearing a pink floral skirt rather than a blue one; how does that serve him better and advance his kingdom?

In the NT God's will is usually about being; it is God's will that we should be holy, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, accept Jesus, John 6:40, pray continuously and give thanks in all circumstance, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18. Nowhere does it say, "God controls your wardrobe and it is his will that you wear certain clothes each day."

God made us in his image. He can choose, so he gave humans the ability to choose also - and trusts them to make choices for themselves.
The teaching "if God didn't want you to do/wear/eat/go, then you wouldn't, sounds all very well, but he doesn't control our lives to that extent. Otherwise you could say "If God hadn't wanted you to think that unkind thing about your brother, you wouldn't have" - which means, "God wants you to sin and think unkind thoughts."
Not true at all.

Dave L · Aug 12, 2018

Strong in Him said:
It was God's will for me to wear what I wore today; so if I'd changed, or changed my mind 2 or 3 times, that would have been his will too?
a) why? Can't God make up his mind the first time what underwear I should put on?
b) why do you think, and where does it say, that his will is so detailed that it includes what we wear- the implication being that if you don't wear it it is a sin?
c) how is God glorified by me wearing a pink floral skirt rather than a blue one; how does that serve him better and advance his kingdom?

In the NT God's will is usually about being; it is God's will that we should be holy, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, accept Jesus, John 6:40, pray continuously and give thanks in all circumstance, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18. Nowhere does it say, "God controls your wardrobe and it is his will that you wear certain clothes each day."

God made us in his image. He can choose, so he gave humans the ability to choose also - and trusts them to make choices for themselves.
The teaching "if God didn't want you to do/wear/eat/go, then you wouldn't, sounds all very well, but he doesn't control our lives to that extent. Otherwise you could say "If God hadn't wanted you to think that unkind thing about your brother, you wouldn't have" - which means, "God wants you to sin and think unkind thoughts."
Not true at all.

We choose for a reason. And God uses the reasons we base our decisions on to control us. In this way we choose what we want and reap the good or bad that comes from them.

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
How can God develop develop character in us if we do not have a choice between sin and righteousness?

But you've been saying that God controls us. If we are under his control, we don't need to develop anything.
You've been saying that if it wasn't God's will for me to wear the skirt I'm wearing, I would have chosen something else. That suggests that he puts thoughts into my head to pick a particular garment because it is his purpose and will that I do so. Extend that idea to eating, choosing a job/church/house/hobbies/friends; that I only have the hobbies etc I have because God told me to choose them, and it takes the responsibility off me to do anything. Anything I do, wear etc will be because God first put the thoughts into my mind - nothing to do with me, I'm just the robot who opens the wardrobe door.

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
We choose for a reason. And God uses the reasons we base our decisions on to control us. In this way we choose what we want and reap the good or bad that comes from them.

In some situations, you could possibly make that argument. But wearing a plain, or patterned, skirt is neither good nor bad. His will is not perfected, nor thwarted, whether I wear a skirt, or trousers. He wants me to serve him - he trusts, and allows, me to choose what I wear as I am doing it.
I don't believe that God controls us at all. Guides us, yes; but not to that extent.

Dave L · Aug 12, 2018

Strong in Him said:
But you've been saying that God controls us. If we are under his control, we don't need to develop anything.
You've been saying that if it wasn't God's will for me to wear the skirt I'm wearing, I would have chosen something else. That suggests that he puts thoughts into my head to pick a particular garment because it is his purpose and will that I do so. Extend that idea to eating, choosing a job/church/house/hobbies/friends; that I only have the hobbies etc I have because God told me to choose them, and it takes the responsibility off me to do anything. Anything I do, wear etc will be because God first put the thoughts into my mind - nothing to do with me, I'm just the robot who opens the wardrobe door.

God molds and shapes us through the experiences we encounter. We end up being Christ like. If he just made us that way we would not have character development.

Dave L · Aug 12, 2018

Strong in Him said:
In some situations, you could possibly make that argument. But wearing a plain, or patterned, skirt is neither good nor bad. His will is not perfected, nor thwarted, whether I wear a skirt, or trousers. He wants me to serve him - he trusts, and allows, me to choose what I wear as I am doing it.
I don't believe that God controls us at all. Guides us, yes; but not to that extent.

We do not see the significance in this, but we do not operate under our own power. God moves us and we move. Perhaps your choice of clothing for the day says something about you.

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
God molds and shapes us through the experiences we encounter. We end up being Christ like. If he just made us that way we would not have character development.

Being moulded, shaped and changed into Jesus' likeness, I can understand.
Being controlled by God right down to the detail of what clothes we put on; I can't, and disagree that that happens.

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
Perhaps your choice of clothing for the day says something about you.

So I DO have a choice - it's not God controlling me?

Dave L · Aug 12, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Being moulded, shaped and changed into Jesus' likeness, I can understand.
Being controlled by God right down to the detail of what clothes we put on; I can't, and disagree that that happens.

Here's a perfect example of random acts being under God's control.

“But Micaiah replied, “If you [Ahab] return safely, it will mean that the Lord has not spoken through me!” Then he added to those standing around, “Everyone mark my words!”” (1 Kings 22:28)

“So King Ahab of Israel and King Jehoshaphat of Judah led their armies against Ramoth-gilead. The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “As we go into battle, I will disguise myself so no one will recognize me, but you wear your royal robes.” So the king of Israel disguised himself, and they went into battle. Meanwhile, the king of Aram had issued these orders to his thirty-two chariot commanders: “Attack only the king of Israel. Don’t bother with anyone else!” So when the Aramean chariot commanders saw Jehoshaphat in his royal robes, they went after him. “There is the king of Israel!” they shouted. But when Jehoshaphat called out, the chariot commanders realized he was not the king of Israel, and they stopped chasing him. An Aramean soldier, however, randomly shot an arrow at the Israelite troops and hit the king of Israel between the joints of his armor. “Turn the horses and get me out of here!” Ahab groaned to the driver of his chariot. “I’m badly wounded!”” (1 Kings 22:29–34)

And of course he died.

Dave L · Aug 12, 2018

Strong in Him said:
So I DO have a choice - it's not God controlling me?

You always choose for a reason. And God controls you through the reasons you base your choices on. It involves your nature. Your past experiences. Your intelligence, everything that enters into the reasons you base your choices on.

Bobber · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
If sin did not exist, neither would God's mercy, righteousness, love, wrath, justice etc., etc.

Did this ever happen to you? I hope not. I hope if you had kids, which turned into teenagers and who disobeyed you an odd time....well let me put it this way...what would you say if one of them said, "Dad don't worry or be upset about my disobeying you! It's a good thing for it shows how merciful you could be!" I think you would be insulted at such a lame way of reasoning? Why shouldn't God?

Dave L · Aug 12, 2018

Bobber said:
Did this ever happen to you? I hope not. I hope if you had kids, which turned into teenagers and who disobeyed you an odd time....well let me put it this way...what would you say if one of them said, "Dad don't worry or be upset about my disobeying you! It's a good thing for it shows how merciful you could be!" I think you would be insulted at such a lame way of reasoning? Why shouldn't God?

This is not what's going on here. Back in the day if Dad caught you smoking, he might make you eat the whole pack of cigarettes. But the outcome would be you are so sick of cigarettes you never mess with them again. And God teaches us not to sin by controlling our sins to work out that way.

Kersh · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
How can God develop develop character in us if we do not have a choice between sin and righteousness?

But, if determinism is true, then we don't have that choice.

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
Here's a perfect example of random acts being under God's control.

An Aramean soldier, however, randomly shot an arrow at the Israelite troops and hit the king of Israel between the joints of his armor. “Turn the horses and get me out of here!” Ahab groaned to the driver of his chariot. “I’m badly wounded!”” (1 Kings 22:29–34)

And of course he died.

Yes, he died; it had already been prophesied that he would.
The soldier probably wasn't aiming the arrow at anyone, that's why it was described as random. That does't mean that God controlled the soldier. He was fighting in a battle; of course he fired an arrow, that's what they did.

And that has nothing to do with the scenario of my skirts.

Kersh · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
You always choose for a reason. And God controls you through the reasons you base your choices on. It involves your nature. Your past experiences. Your intelligence, everything that enters into the reasons you base your choices on.

Our choices are shaped by numerous factors. But, that doesn't mean that, for any given decision, we have one and only one inevitable choice. Compatibilism tries to soften the blow of determinism by suggesting that, even though God has ultimately determined every choice we will ever make, he does so by allowing us to make the choice that is most compelled by our current desire. The thought seems to be that this lets God off the hook for the evil that we do. But, it is still determinism and still requires that God is either not all good or sin is not all bad. But, if the latter, we still have to ask them, why would God punish sin if it's really not bad? So, at the end of the day, for Compatibilism or any other form of theistic determinism to hold up, we must start with the presupposition that God is only partly good, but also partly evil. And, this view I cannot reconcile with scripture.

Strong in Him · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
You always choose for a reason. And God controls you through the reasons you base your choices on. It involves your nature. Your past experiences. Your intelligence, everything that enters into the reasons you base your choices on.

That's my whole point though; God doesn't control.
You've just said "my choice of skirts" - "control" means that an object/other person has NO choice. As in controlling a car, horse, the temperature in a room, or using a tv remote control.
A pastor who controls a church dictates how much people give, who they go out with, what they wear; maybe even where they sit.
A teacher who controls a class has silence when she wants silence, says what lessons the students study and if they work alone or in pairs, etc etc.
A person who controls their temper chooses to restrain their angry words actions and impulses.

A God who controls imposes his will and choice onto me and forces me to do what he wants.

Bobber · Aug 12, 2018

Dave L said:
This is not what's going on here. Back in the day if Dad caught you smoking, he might make you eat the whole pack of cigarettes. But the outcome would be you are so sick of cigarettes you never mess with them again. And God teaches us not to sin by controlling our sins to work out that way.

But that's not what I asked you. I asked if your teenager who disobeyed tried to use as an excuse that their rebellion towards you was good for it gave you an opportunity to show your mercy....what would you say? Can you honestly tell us you'd accept that as OK I never thought of it like that?

Dave L · Aug 13, 2018

Bobber said:
But that's not what I asked you. I asked if your teenager who disobeyed tried to use as an excuse that their rebellion towards you was good for it gave you an opportunity to show your mercy....what would you say? Can you honestly tell us you'd accept that as OK I never thought of it like that?

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1–2)

Dave L · Aug 13, 2018

Strong in Him said:
That's my whole point though; God doesn't control.
You've just said "my choice of skirts" - "control" means that an object/other person has NO choice. As in controlling a car, horse, the temperature in a room, or using a tv remote control.
A pastor who controls a church dictates how much people give, who they go out with, what they wear; maybe even where they sit.
A teacher who controls a class has silence when she wants silence, says what lessons the students study and if they work alone or in pairs, etc etc.
A person who controls their temper chooses to restrain their angry words actions and impulses.

A God who controls imposes his will and choice onto me and forces me to do what he wants.

Why do we pray "if it be thy will"? Because we cannot do what isn't God's will.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

Dave L · Aug 13, 2018

Kersh said:
Our choices are shaped by numerous factors. But, that doesn't mean that, for any given decision, we have one and only one inevitable choice. Compatibilism tries to soften the blow of determinism by suggesting that, even though God has ultimately determined every choice we will ever make, he does so by allowing us to make the choice that is most compelled by our current desire. The thought seems to be that this lets God off the hook for the evil that we do. But, it is still determinism and still requires that God is either not all good or sin is not all bad. But, if the latter, we still have to ask them, why would God punish sin if it's really not bad? So, at the end of the day, for Compatibilism or any other form of theistic determinism to hold up, we must start with the presupposition that God is only partly good, but also partly evil. And, this view I cannot reconcile with scripture.

We always base our choices on what God wills. Why pray "if it be thy will" if we can do what he doesn't will?

ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

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