NFP in Marriage?

Lotar said:

You can go by what every single Orthodox Church says everywhere and use contraception, or you can listen to some crazy convert priest in California and a smattering of quotes from saints who lived before the modern understanding of conception and modern methods of birth control.

Just saying.

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I have to admit I'm curious - why would an Orthodox Christian use the name of "Swift Eagle Justice" as his personal tag?

Not to mention I think it's a tad reaching to say "every single Orthodox Church everywhere" promotes contraception.

We do not edify by goading - surely that's not what you want people to think?

Anyone who teaches that Orthodoxy does not promote fasting from sex, I believe, to be way outside historic Orthodoxy. My spiritual father, and my Bishop, both OCA, promote this (though certainly not yelling from the roof tops.)

However, that does not mean Orthodox Christians don't have sex or don't, sometimes, deliberately avoid having children. It just shows we are on all on the scale of sinfulness and we work with our priest, each other, and the sacraments to be come holier and by God's grace become obedient in all walks of our lives.

abacabb3 said:

Anyone who teaches that Orthodoxy does not promote fasting from sex, I believe, to be way outside historic Orthodoxy. My spiritual father, and my Bishop, both OCA, promote this (though certainly not yelling from the roof tops.)

However, that does not mean Orthodox Christians don't have sex or don't, sometimes, deliberately avoid having children. It just shows we are on all on the scale of sinfulness and we work with our priest, each other, and the sacraments to be come holier and by God's grace become obedient in all walks of our lives.

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Well there's plenty of reasons to avoid having children, such as not being able to afford to raise them. I can't think of many things crueler than intentionally bringing a child you can't even afford into the world, except for perhaps aborting said child outright. In a perfect world everybody would just be celibate unless they want children, but that is not the reality we live in.

Well I'm neither RC nor EO but my husband and I used NFP(Creighton) for about 10 years(we are no longer in our fertile years so it's not an issue now. I got married after age 35 for the first time, and we are blessed with 2 beautiful children. We were open to more but advanced age was an issue(my husband is nearly a decade older than me.)
I loved NFP but I realize it's maybe not for everyone. We have long been involved in the pro-life movement and we both believe that not only surgical abortion but all chemical contraceptives work sometimes as abortifacients so we could not in conscience use them.
We did this as (WELS) Lutherans whose stance on artificial birth control is mostly silence as it's not addressed in Scripture. Most of our friends and fellow churchgoers thought we were nuts but I really liked charting.
Even secular publications will tell you that the sexual revolution would not have been possible without the advent of the Pill.
Of course I believe people need to plan their families, and perhaps barrier methods might not be as problematic.

The Michael Crichton method of birth control works better. You’re so busy reading Andromeda Strain, Jurassic Park, Coma, Runaway Train that you never have time to conceive.

LizaMarie said:

Well I'm neither RC nor EO but my husband and I used NFP(Creighton) for about 10 years(we are no longer in our fertile years so it's not an issue now. I got married after age 35 for the first time, and we are blessed with 2 beautiful children. We were open to more but advanced age was an issue(my husband is nearly a decade older than me.)
I loved NFP but I realize it's maybe not for everyone. We have long been involved in the pro-life movement and we both believe that not only surgical abortion but all chemical contraceptives work sometimes as abortifacients so we could not in conscience use them.
We did this as (WELS) Lutherans whose stance on artificial birth control is mostly silence as it's not addressed in Scripture. Most of our friends and fellow churchgoers thought we were nuts but I really liked charting.
Even secular publications will tell you that the sexual revolution would not have been possible without the advent of the Pill.
Of course I believe people need to plan their families, and perhaps barrier methods might not be as problematic.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

The Michael Crichton method of birth control works better. You’re so busy reading Andromeda Strain, Jurassic Park, Coma, Runaway Train that you never have time to conceive.

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I did read Fr. Meyendorff's book you suggested. Excellent. Help me understand about remarriage as that is the issue we're facing now, not Birth Control(we're too old for that).

ArmyMatt said:

and, what you are saying isn't even what Fr Josiah says. all he was referenced in saying was that the use of non-abortive contraception, must be done with pastoral direction.

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Wrong. I have a child that was conceived while on chemotherapy, and has severe health issues likely do to that, because we were idiots and listened to him. Which was, directly from him, we had permission to practice nfp, or we could use condoms and not have communion, ever, unless we don't have sex.

He was me priest for 5 years, and my wife's for 10. So don't be telling me that I don't know what he is really saying.

The funny thing about contraception is that those who support it outright, no spiritual counsel needed, like to make it seem like they have a higher, more positive view of sex - like they really get how important it is ... but, in reality, they are the ones denigrating sex. Saying that the issue should just be up to the couple's conscience and no spiritual counsel is needed at least implicitly betrays the belief that sex has nothing to do with salvation. If you believed there was anything spiritual about it and that it plays into your salvation, you would seek spiritual counsel about this issue.

Otherwise, you admit the salvific aspect but just think yourself worthy of being your own spiritual guide.

Or, you fully realize the danger of this attitude, but just don't care.

~Anastasia~ said:

I have to admit I'm curious - why would an Orthodox Christian use the name of "Swift Eagle Justice" as his personal tag?

Not to mention I think it's a tad reaching to say "every single Orthodox Church everywhere" promotes contraception.

We do not edify by goading - surely that's not what you want people to think?

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I chose the tag as a joke many years ago. I only came by because gzt posted about this on Facebook.

It's not at all reaching. Name a single Orthodox Church that has a policy forbidding contraception. There aren't any. Even the Russians allow it.

Lotar said:

I chose the tag as a joke many years ago. I only came by because gzt posted about this on Facebook.

It's not at all reaching. Name a single Orthodox Church that has a policy forbidding contraception. There aren't any. Even the Russians allow it.

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What does the Georgian Church say about it?

That’s great!!!

LizaMarie said:

I did read Fr. Meyendorff's book you suggested. Excellent. Help me understand about remarriage as that is the issue we're facing now, not Birth Control(we're too old for that).

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About the same as the Alabama church, Florida church, and Mississippi. Pretty tolerant on all counts.

Platina said:

What does the Georgian Church say about it?

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Lotar said:

I chose the tag as a joke many years ago. I only came by because gzt posted about this on Facebook.

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Thank you for the explanation (not that you owed me one) ... but aligning oneself with Draperod sounds very odd.

It's not at all reaching. Name a single Orthodox Church that has a policy forbidding contraception. There aren't any. Even the Russians allow it.

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I am sorry about your situation with your son, by the way. I pray that he does well, and for God to be merciful and help all of you.

I don't know any Church that has a policy different from what has been presented here repeatedly -

Abortifactant contraception is forbidden. Other forms of contraception should be discussed with one's spiritual father. It is absolutely not the policy of the Church to issue a blanket endorsement of contraception at the couple's own whim. In some circumstances some methods may be adviseable. NFP (which was the original topic of the thread) would seem to be generally allowable in any case.

The debate seems to be (mostly) about what the "other side" never said.

I'm not wanting to pick on you. This just seems a very unedifying thread and I am concerned for all of us. And it isn't even focused on what is actually said, for the most part. I could hope we would all take a care for one another.

God be with you. And I apologize if I was offensive on anything.

MariaJLM said:

Well there's plenty of reasons to avoid having children, such as not being able to afford to raise them.

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While I am no one's spiritual father, so that I cannot speak of personal circumstances, I can speak more generally as some random guy on the internet.

I cannot think of any father of the Church ever who cited economic reasons to not have children. We don't see this until after the industrial revolution when the economic advantage of having children evaporated in urban centers.

So, while I may sinfully feel the tug to limit my family (and I have), I cannot in good faith say this is not sinful (i.e. missing the mark of Godliness) and this is something must work out with one's spiritual father.

Lotar said:

Wrong. I have a child that was conceived while on chemotherapy, and has severe health issues likely do to that, because we were idiots and listened to him. Which was, directly from him, we had permission to practice nfp, or we could use condoms and not have communion, ever, unless we don't have sex.

He was me priest for 5 years, and my wife's for 10. So don't be telling me that I don't know what he is really saying.

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My spiritual father has given allowances for health issues.

However, the ideal is fasting of course.

Lotar said:

Wrong. I have a child that was conceived while on chemotherapy, and has severe health issues likely do to that, because we were idiots and listened to him. Which was, directly from him, we had permission to practice nfp, or we could use condoms and not have communion, ever, unless we don't have sex.

He was me priest for 5 years, and my wife's for 10. So don't be telling me that I don't know what he is really saying.

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while I am sorry for what happened to you, I know a few people from his parish who have not had such issues. in fact, I have heard from some of his spiritual children that they had to increase their prayer rule and their fasting if they would use contraception.

so while again, I am sorry for what happened to you and am not trying to downplay it, yours isn't the only story coming from his parishioners in regards to this.

wasn't abstinence an option because of the health risks during chemo?

Ok, seriously, what on EARTH is this thing with the weird clean-shaven chunky Left-Wing looking bishop and all this weirdness? It's obviously fake, but where did that come from!?

~Anastasia~ said:

I have to admit I'm curious - why would an Orthodox Christian use the name of "Swift Eagle Justice" as his personal tag?

Not to mention I think it's a tad reaching to say "every single Orthodox Church everywhere" promotes contraception.

We do not edify by goading - surely that's not what you want people to think?

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but who is the fact lesbian lady dressed as an Orthodox bishop?

Lotar said:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/anybody-know-these-guys.1905372/page-2#post-17280296

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

Ok, seriously, what on EARTH is this thing with the weird clean-shaven chunky Left-Wing looking bishop and all this weirdness? It's obviously fake, but where did that come from!?

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You missed Bishop Draperod? It wasn't that long ago I learned about him.

Read his full title on the ordination papers.