NFP in Marriage?

jckstraw72 said:

It actually doesn't help at all.

Feel free to quote a saint who wrote approvingly of contraception.

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Well to be fair most of the saints who addressed the issue were writing during a time when the ONLY methods of birth control were abortive. We have developed alternate means since then.

Met. Kallistos' 3 versions:

1963 Version

“Artificial methods of contraception are forbidden in the Orthodox Church”

1984 Version

“The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father”

1993 Version

“Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences”

... The part about consulting a spiritual father was intentionally removed in the last version.

MariaJLM said:

Well to be fair most of the saints who addressed the issue were writing during a time when the ONLY methods of birth control were abortive. We have developed alternate means since then.

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That actually isn't true. See this article: https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/sacred-seed-sacred-chamber/

Also, theology isn't done that way - based on purely earthly knowledge. Theology is revelation.

Platina said:

jckstraw72 said: "The Church is opposed to birth control as its standard. Relaxation of that standard can come into play through counsel with one's spiritual father, as Fr. Josiah Trenham teaches, for example."

you replied: Sure, he's toward one extreme of accepted Orthodox thought.

Nutroll has now said: I see exactly these kind of statements that show it is not the ideal but that a conversation can be had with one's priest if someone is struggling.

Yes, you called such a position extreme.

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Read more carefuller.

jckstraw's and Nutroll's statements are identical -- contraception is not the "standard" or not the "ideal," but there can be a conversation with a spiritual father. They are saying the exact same thing.

You're willing to call one extreme and not the other because of who posted them, not because of what they say.

We dont' have to listen to our Synod, just what some monk said!

Platina said:

jckstraw's and Nutroll's statements are identical -- contraception is not the "standard" or not the "ideal," but there can be a conversation with a spiritual father. They are saying the exact same thing.

You're willing to call one extreme and not the other because of who posted them, not because of what they say.

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Not really.

Platina said:

That actually isn't true. See this article: https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/sacred-seed-sacred-chamber/

Also, theology isn't done that way - based on purely earthly knowledge. Theology is revelation.

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Where does scripture say we can't use non-abortive contraception, though? If we want knowledge that isn't "Earthly" as you say then that would be the place to go.

MariaJLM said:

Where does scripture say we can't use non-abortive contraception, though? If we want knowledge that isn't "Earthly" as you say then that would be the place to go.

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Well, we're not Sola Scriptura of course. The saints of the Church expound on Scriptural principles for us. But, off the top of my head, the Fathers point to the story of Onan as an example of the sin of spilling your seed for a purpose other than conception.

Platina said:

Well, we're not Sola Scriptura of course. The saints of the Church expound on Scriptural principles for us. But, off the top of my head, the Fathers point to the story of Onan as an example of the sin of spilling your seed for a purpose other than conception.

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Well I certainly don't think we're Sola Scripturists. However, much of tradition is derived from the Scriptures so I had to ask.

MariaJLM said:

Well I certainly don't think we're Sola Scripturists. However, much of tradition is derived from the Scriptures so I had to ask.

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Doesn't get better than Scripture!

gzt said:

We dont' have to listen to our Synod, just what some monk said!

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no one is saying not to listen to what the OCA Synod said. if you read the article you referenced "more carefuller," the admonitions are given as a guidance with is not a steadfast rule.

especially considering the orthodoxwiki link you posted, at the bottom of the article, named OCA clergy who take view in line with "extreme" views of Fr Josiah (even though all that was referenced is pastoral care when a couple uses birth control).

You can go by what every single Orthodox Church says everywhere and use contraception, or you can listen to some crazy convert priest in California and a smattering of quotes from saints who lived before the modern understanding of conception and modern methods of birth control.

Just saying.

Lotar said:

You can go by what every single Orthodox Church says everywhere and use contraception, or you can listen to some crazy convert priest in California and a smattering of quotes from saints who lived before the modern understanding of conception and modern methods of birth control.

Just saying.

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Fr. Josiah definitely has some extreme views that make me, as a woman, uncomfortable. At least from what I've heard. Could all be hearsay.

MariaJLM said:

Fr. Josiah definitely has some extreme views that make me, as a woman, uncomfortable. At least from what I've heard. Could all be hearsay.

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There's definitely lots of hearsay and lies that float around about him. I suggest writing to him and asking him personally any questions. That's what I did about contraception several years ago and found out that he is often misrepresented.

Lotar said:

You can go by what every single Orthodox Church says everywhere and use contraception, or you can listen to some crazy convert priest in California and a smattering of quotes from saints who lived before the modern understanding of conception and modern methods of birth control.

Just saying.

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Note that to be pro-contraception you have to denigrate the saints.

Someone crazy in California? IMPOSSIBLE!

Lotar said:

You can go by what every single Orthodox Church says everywhere and use contraception, or you can listen to some crazy convert priest in California and a smattering of quotes from saints who lived before the modern understanding of conception and modern methods of birth control.

Just saying.

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Father John Meyendorff's book called "Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective," was outstanding imho. I love the late Father Meyendorff (Memory Eternal). He was my priest's Father Confessor at St. Vladimir's back in the early 1980's. He inspired him a great deal. Father Meyendorff's books are what opened the Orthodox Church to me. He's amazing. He was best friends with Father Schmemmann, who was also my priest's seminary professor (imagine having Father Alexander as your professor!!!!).

In this book, Father Meyendorff talks about practicality, having enough money to properly raise a child and care for him/her, having enough and what you can take care of varies from family to family. Money and careers vary, mitigating factors like employment or depression or lack of childcare or education and so many other things play into it. Where you live also factors in. He goes on and on about common sense, but trying to be open to life, and that is something one figures out with a spiritual father. He basically says contraception is a factor and he writes from a well-grounded perspective.

I came from the Catholic Church where Vatican Roulette and having 12 kids when you can only afford to house, care for, watch, and raise 3 was normal. No thanks. Natural Family Planning was a nightmare for us, and the issue of how many kids to have, sex, all that stuff, is not best-discussed in a forum. I wouldn't say that it is to the level of evolution in TAW (Lord, have mercy!) or politics, but it is an issue that won't be properly dealt-with here ever.

To the OP, I know it's the ultimate TAW cliche of all time, but I must rap this to you yet again----"yo, yo, yo, talk to your priest, dawg."

This is between husband, wife, priest, not the conservatives and libs at TAW.

I highly recommend reading Father Meyendorff's book. Here's the link.

https://smile.amazon.com/s?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=john+meyendorff+family

Lotar said:

You can go by what every single Orthodox Church says everywhere and use contraception, or you can listen to some crazy convert priest in California and a smattering of quotes from saints who lived before the modern understanding of conception and modern methods of birth control.

Just saying.

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except it's not just one crazy convert priest. there was this awesome cradle priest named Fr Thomas Hopko who said the same thing.

and, what you are saying isn't even what Fr Josiah says. all he was referenced in saying was that the use of non-abortive contraception, must be done with pastoral direction.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Father John Meyendorff's book called "Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective," was outstanding imho. I love the late Father Meyendorff (Memory Eternal). He was my priest's Father Confessor at St. Vladimir's back in the early 1980's. He inspired him a great deal. Father Meyendorff's books are what opened the Orthodox Church to me. He's amazing. He was best friends with Father Schmemmann, who was also my priest's seminary professor (imagine having Father Alexander as your professor!!!!).

In this book, Father Meyendorff talks about practicality, having enough money to properly raise a child and care for him/her, having enough and what you can take care of varies from family to family. Money and careers vary, mitigating factors like employment or depression or lack of childcare or education and so many other things play into it. Where you live also factors in. He goes on and on about common sense, but trying to be open to life, and that is something one figures out with a spiritual father. He basically says contraception is a factor and he writes from a well-grounded perspective.

I came from the Catholic Church where Vatican Roulette and having 12 kids when you can only afford to house, care for, watch, and raise 3 was normal. No thanks. Natural Family Planning was a nightmare for us, and the issue of how many kids to have, sex, all that stuff, is not best-discussed in a forum. I wouldn't say that it is to the level of evolution in TAW (Lord, have mercy!) or politics, but it is an issue that won't be properly dealt-with here ever.

To the OP, I know it's the ultimate TAW cliche of all time, but I must rap this to you yet again----"yo, yo, yo, talk to your priest, dawg."

This is between husband, wife, priest, not the conservatives and libs at TAW.

I highly recommend reading Father Meyendorff's book. Here's the link.

https://smile.amazon.com/s?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=john+meyendorff+family

Click to expand...

exactly, there is a ton of new medical stuff we know, even though Orthodoxy's truth never changes. so as Fr Josiah says, seek pastoral guidance. if the teaching was that non-abortive contraception was the standard, there would be no need to seek pastoral guidance at all.