Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Dave L said:

You are not going by scripture. It says he is bound so he cannot deceive the nations. This is because the gospel preached to all nations prevents this. Don't add to scripture, especially Revelation.

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It is both Scriptural and logical that Satan is not bound currently. When do think he was bound? At what time did that happen?

Dave L said:

He was bound by the gospel over the centuries or we would not have global Christendom. But I believe he is now loosed and is once again deceiving the nations. Jesus asked if faith will exists when he returns.

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So Paul was incorrect when he said,

“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Also the Scriptures day the devil is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts of the Apostles 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thessalonians 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19).

Source used:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/issatanbound.htm

Jason0047 said:

While sin can happen in the Millennium, it will not be common place.

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A presumption for which there is no Scripture. And the rebellion which it is said will occur at the end of the millennium suggests pervasive sin.

Jason0047 said:

This direct rule is an everlasting righteousness.

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Daniel 9:24 says nothing about a direct rule, and Christ said He fulfilled it.

Jason0047 said:

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

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Now we are getting somewhere...

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

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jgr said:

A presumption for which there is no Scripture. And the rebellion which it is said will occur at the end of the millennium suggests pervasive sin.

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But the Millennuum is not ruled by sin. Jesus still rules 1,000 years. His direct rule and the time period suggests righteousness primarily rules and not sin. Read Isaiah 65:17-25. Does that sound like a sin ruled world to you?

You said:

Daniel 9:24 says nothing about a direct rule, and Christ said He fulfilled it.

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No He didn’t. You are saying that. Please quote me the words of Jesus that say the same thing you just said.

BABerean2 said:

Now we are getting somewhere...

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


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Not sure you get what I am saying. My point was that Paul was trying to refute Circumcision Salvationism or going back to the Old Law to be justified without God’s grace. Paul was trying to refute Works Alone Salvationism (Which was a part of the false Pharisee religion) (Ephesians 2:8-9). James was trying to refute Belief Alone-ism or Easy Believism. For James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). So we are not saved by belief alone anymore than we saved by works alone.

jgr said:

A presumption for which there is no Scripture. And the rebellion which it is said will occur at the end of the millennium suggests pervasive sin.



Daniel 9:24 says nothing about a direct rule, and Christ said He fulfilled it.

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Revelation 20:4 says Jesus will rule for 1,000 years.

Jason0047 said:

Read Isaiah 65:17-25.

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Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

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BABerean2 said:

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

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First, many Christians are confused when they read this passage in Isaiah 65:17-25 and in 2 Peter 3. The New Heavens and New Earth is in reference to the Millennium and not the same New Heavens and New Earth in Revelation. The reason for this is because the two descriptions of these places are totally unlike one another. The place in Revelation is End Game. There will be no more death, disease, sorrow, etc. But in the New Heavens and New Earth in Isaiah 65:17-25, there will be sin and death still.

Second, Peter is saying that after Christ returns this world will be purified by fire (similar to the global flood but far more effective in the fact that you will not find any Earthly relics deep beneath the ground). The Earth will be burned (Including the crust or upper layer). The atmosphere will also be burned. No doubt to get rid of the bad pollution that we caused. This will then usher in the Millennium or the New Heavens and New Earth that is described in Isaiah 65:17-25. At the end of the Millennium, Satan will be loosed and then judged and then there will be ANOTHER new Heavens and new Earth. This is when the city of New Jerusalem will come down from out of Heaven and land on this new Earth. For Revelation says that our old Earth will pass away and be no more. That is not the same description as the purification of this world by fire.

Note: Please keep in mind that it is not unsual for the Bible to use the same name for describing two entirely different things. For example: "sons of God" can refer to both angels or believers.

Jason0047 said:

No He didn’t. You are saying that. Please quote me the words of Jesus that say the same thing you just said.

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Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Daniel 9:24 qualifies as among "all that the prophets have spoken" concerning Him.

It qualifies as among "all things must be fulfilled" in the prophets concerning Him.

Christ said that He fulfilled it.

jgr said:

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Daniel 9:24 qualifies as among "all that the prophets have spoken" concerning Him.

It qualifies as among "all things must be fulfilled" in the prophets concerning Him.

Christ said that He fulfilled it.

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It doesn’t say HAS been fulfilled.
It says all things must be fulfilled.
This can be read as talking future tense.

Besides, do you believe his second coming will not be fulfilled? Or don’t you believe there will be 2nd coming?

Jason0047 said:

#1. He (most likely the Antichrist) will confirm the covenant (or treaty) with many (Many nations) for one week (Which will be for seven years). This cannot be Jesus because the New Covenant is an everlasting one and not a seven year Covenant.
#2. In the middle of the week (3.5 years), he (most likely the Antichrist) will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease (i.e. the sacrifices will be stopped in the new Jewish temple).
#3. For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it (the temple) desolate.
#4. The NLT says (for this last part), "until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him." This means that He will meet His end with the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. For he will destroy this defiler with the brightness of his coming.

Please take note that after the new Jewish temple sacrifices have ceased by the Antichrist's people, Revelation 12 says there will be 1,260 days left whereby the Jews will flee to the deserted mountainous regions (Whereby they will be fed, i.e. taken care of).

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Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Antichrist is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage.

Grammatically,
1. The antecedent of the three "he's" in verse 27 is the "prince" in verse 26.
2. The antecedent of the "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

The only Individual appearing in the passage is Messiah.

Messiah confirmed His everlasting covenant with "many" (Matthew 26:28) in Israel who accepted Him during the 70th week.

Messiah caused the OT sacrifice and oblation to cease by His own perfect sacrifice at Calvary.

Messiah's agents of judgment and destruction, the Romans and the Jews, desolated Jerusalem and Judea. They were "His people" to accomplish His purposes.

jgr said:

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Antichrist is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage.

Grammatically,
1. The antecedent of the three "he's" in verse 27 is the "prince" in verse 26.
2. The antecedent of the "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

The only Individual appearing in the passage is Messiah.

Messiah confirmed His everlasting covenant with "many" (Matthew 26:28) in Israel who accepted Him during the 70th week.

Messiah caused the OT sacrifice and oblation to cease by His own perfect sacrifice at Calvary.

Messiah's agents of judgment and destruction, the Romans and the Jews, desolated Jerusalem and Judea. They were "His people" to accomplish His purposes.

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There are two princes mentioned in the Bible.
Jesus gives you a hint to the Abomination of Desolation and he is saying for the Jews in that area to essentially RUN!!!

15 “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand; )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. (Matthew 24:15-16).

It sure doesn’t sound like Jesus to me.

Jason0047 said:

It doesn’t say HAS been fulfilled.
It says all things must be fulfilled.
This can be read as talking future tense.

Besides, do you believe his second coming will not be fulfilled? Or don’t you believe there will be 2nd coming?

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Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

That included the prophet Daniel.


Daniel was prophesying of the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27. He was therefore prophesying of the First Coming, not the Second.

Jason0047 said:

There are two princes mentioned in the Bible.
Jesus gives you a hint to the Abomination of Desolation and he is saying for the Jews in that area to essentially RUN!!!

15 “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand; )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. (Matthew 24:15-16).

It sure doesn’t sound like Jesus to me.

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"It sure doesn’t sound like Jesus to me."

I don't understand what "It" is.

Jesus issued the warning. Why doesn't it sound like Him?

His followers heeded the warning at the applicable time, and did not perish.

jgr said:

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

That included the prophet Daniel.


Daniel was prophesying of the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27. He was therefore prophesying of the First Coming, not the Second.

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Not true. Skip back to Daniel 8:13. It says this about the desolation.

“Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” (Daniel 8:13).

In verse 24-25 it says,

24 “And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.” (Daniel 8:24-25).

• Daniel 11:31a NIV

“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice”

3 “....and that man of sin..., the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”
(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)

jgr said:

"It sure doesn’t sound like Jesus to me."

I don't understand what "It" is.

Jesus issued the warning. Why doesn't it sound like Him?

His followers heeded the warning at the applicable time, and did not perish.

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It will sort of be a repeat of history.

Antiochus Epiphanies desocrated the Jewish temple with a profane unclean sacrifice.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes

Granted, I am sure the Antichrist will top that event in making it even more worse somehow.