Guns in the church

RDKirk · Aug 9, 2018

Paidiske said:
Whereas I think my calling as a Christian is to be willing to be the first killed.

If it's only me, that's likely to happen.

But I can't make that decision for my wife and daughter.

Paidiske · Aug 9, 2018

RDKirk said:
If it's only me, that's likely to happen.

But I can't make that decision for my wife and daughter.

No, but if we're talking guns, then they don't need you to (beyond a certain point in age). Your wife can make her own decision, and doesn't need someone else to be willing to kill for her.

RDKirk · Aug 9, 2018

Paidiske said:
No, but if we're talking guns, then they don't need you to (beyond a certain point in age). Your wife can make her own decision, and doesn't need someone else to be willing to kill for her.

What difference does it make if we're talking guns? It's okay if I use a crowbar to beat the assailant to death?

Sorry, no, I'm not going to stand there while my loved ones are killed.

That might be okay for you, but it's not for me.

Paidiske · Aug 9, 2018

RDKirk said:
What difference does it make if we're talking guns? It's okay if I use a crowbar to beat the assailant to death?

Sorry, no, I'm not going to stand there while my loved ones are killed.

That might be okay for you, but it's not for me.

My point was that you're talking as if your wife needs you to defend her, and make decisions about when it's right to take a life in the name of protecting hers. With guns, she doesn't need you, and can make her own decisions.

It was the picture of your wife as helpless and without agency that I was pushing back against.

And I'm not saying I'd "stand there." I already said, I believe it would be my place to die first. I mean that utterly seriously.

RDKirk · Aug 9, 2018

Paidiske said:
My point was that you're talking as if your wife needs you to defend her, and make decisions about when it's right to take a life in the name of protecting hers. With guns, she doesn't need you, and can make her own decisions.

It was the picture of your wife as helpless and without agency that I was pushing back against.

And I'm not saying I'd "stand there." I already said, I believe it would be my place to die first. I mean that utterly seriously.

Okay.

But what if after seeing you raped and stabbed screaming and splashed by your blood, your child decides he doesn't want to go out that way...but the only person who could save him has chosen to die first?

What if the police get there in time and draw their guns? Are you going to tell them, "Let him stab me--I've chosen to die?"

SteveIndy · Aug 10, 2018

Shempster said:
Gun carriers should think about talking to someone who killed someone else in self defense before they agree to themselves that they would do it.
There is a price to pay for it and you'll never shake it from what have heard.

Your advice is good. These people who want to destroy life really have no idea what they are saying. It is the proud spirit of this world that fills the heart with malice, revenge, and hate, and is not the spirit of Christ. I have two friends who enlisted with me into the Army in 1967 and we all three went to Viet Nam. Those other two are both now crippled mentally from the trauma of taking another life. One has all the signs of demonic possession with horrible dreams, never marrying, living alone in the woods, and creating gargoyles which he sits in his garden and stays awake till late hours drinking coffee and avoiding sleep. The other came back a macho bully, fighting, hating life, and people after being wounded, blaming all his problems on others including me.

This mentality of, "I will kill anyone who messes with me or mine" is of this world and according to Jesus they are already murderers, and the Church feeds this lunacy with its patriotic nonsense that killing your enemy is a good thing. They don't get this from the New Testament yet all of Christian education reinforces it.

Darkhorse · Aug 10, 2018

SteveIndy said:
These people who want to destroy life really have no idea what they are saying.

This mentality of, "I will kill anyone who messes with me or mine" is of this world and according to Jesus they are already murderers...

I agree that anyone who wants to destroy life is acting according to the world, not according to Jesus.

But my carrying a gun in church (and elsewhere) does NOT mean I want to destroy life. I want to preserve it - my own, my family's, and that of every good and peaceful person around me. Circumstances may require shooting (and possibly killing) an attacker to accomplish that, not because he "messed with me", but because he posed an immediate, unavoidable threat of death or great bodily harm.

Some Christian traditions are into the "martyr" thing; I'm not. If God wants me or my family to be martyrs, then He can arrange that anytime He chooses, and I can do nothing about it. Otherwise, I try to be prepared for the worst, and hope it never happens.

RDKirk · Aug 10, 2018

Darkhorse said:
Some Christian traditions are into the "martyr" thing; I'm not. If God wants me or my family to be martyrs, then He can arrange that anytime He chooses, and I can do nothing about it. Otherwise, I try to be prepared for the worst, and hope it never happens.

There are important considerations to being a martyr, and I firmly believe the Nate Saint consideration is one of them.

Nate Saint was a missionary to a South American Indian tribe that was known to be so violent that they were actually killing themselves off. As he considered whether he would kill in self-defense while evangelizing to these people, he stated, "I am ready to meet my Maker--they are not."

Indeed, Nate Saint was eventually killed by those Indians, choosing at the moment before he was speared to death not to use the gun they had brought--he refrained from shooting the man who lunged forward with a spear. Years later, Nate Saint's son evangelized to that same tribe--and his attempt led to the salvation of the very man who had killed his father, and that man became like a godfather to Nate Saint's son.

That was 3-0 for Jesus.

And so, there may be a circumstance in which I stand like Nate Saint with a gun in my hand and make a decision not to use it because that decision at that moment would bring glory to God. I can conceive that.

I can't really conceive a circumstance in which standing by fecklessly while an innocent is killed brings glory to God or results in a "win" for His kingdom, unless we are all dying explicitly for the sake of the gospel because we are faithful to Christ (example: The martyrs of the early church in Rome, martyrs in places like North Korea today).

Phil 1:21 · Aug 10, 2018

Shempster said:
Gun carriers should think about talking to someone who killed someone else in self defense before they agree to themselves that they would do it.
There is a price to pay for it and you'll never shake it from what have heard.

Very much agreed. Carrying is not for everyone. But it is a choice we should (and thankfully are) allowed to make.

SteveIndy said:
Your advice is good. These people who want to destroy life really have no idea what they are saying.

I've honestly never met a single CCW holder who wants to take a human life. Without exception, every single one I've met hopes (and if they are a Christian, prays) that they will never have to use their weapon.

SteveIndy said:
This mentality of, "I will kill anyone who messes with me or mine" is of this world and according to Jesus they are already murderers,

Anyone with that mentality has no business carrying a weapon. Deadly force should only be a last, proportionate resort. Killing someone because they "messed with you or yours" is called, at best, 2nd degree murder.

SteveIndy · Aug 10, 2018

Our Lord has given us a direct order to “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.” If you make a provision to do the very thing you say you would not do you are only fooling yourself. You all want to think that you are the heroes in these situations but in fact, the hero is the one who chooses to obey and follow Christ when the chips are down. By your carrying a gun you are saying you are prepared to disobey Christ when His words and His life say the exact opposite. The Bible states that if you love anything on this earth more than you love Christ then you are not worthy of Him. These are not my words but His. There are no circumstances which would override direct obedience to our Commander in Chief who is Christ Himself.

The Christian “tradition” that you characterize as the “martyr thing” is called obedience. The real tradition of which you speak, is not the martyr thing, but rather self-love and self-protection, but Christ has called us to self-denial. The whole idea of picking up your cross is to deny yourself the option of violence of any kind and to follow Jesus to the cross. When He had the whole arsenal of Heaven at His disposal He denied Himself the use of that arsenal and commanded us to follow His example. You say you can do nothing about it if God determines you to be a martyr, then why are carrying a gun? Your whole attitude appears to be a contradiction of those words. To really be “prepared for the worst” is to change your heart and to get your eyes off of the world and its ways and to focus on Jesus.

Darkhorse said:
I agree that anyone who wants to destroy life is acting according to the world, not according to Jesus.

But my carrying a gun in church (and elsewhere) does NOT mean I want to destroy life. I want to preserve it - my own, my family's, and that of every good and peaceful person around me. Circumstances may require shooting (and possibly killing) an attacker to accomplish that, not because he "messed with me", but because he posed an immediate, unavoidable threat of death or great bodily harm.

Some Christian traditions are into the "martyr" thing; I'm not. If God wants me or my family to be martyrs, then He can arrange that anytime He chooses, and I can do nothing about it. Otherwise, I try to be prepared for the worst, and hope it never happens.

Phil 1:21 · Aug 10, 2018

SteveIndy said:
Our Lord has given us a direct order to “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.” If you make a provision to do the very thing you say you would not do you are only fooling yourself. You all want to think that you are the heroes in these situations but in fact, the hero is the one who chooses to obey and follow Christ when the chips are down. By your carrying a gun you are saying you are prepared to disobey Christ when His words and His life say the exact opposite. The Bible states that if you love anything on this earth more than you love Christ then you are not worthy of Him. These are not my words but His. There are no circumstances which would override direct obedience to our Commander in Chief who is Christ Himself.

The Christian “tradition” that you characterize as the “martyr thing” is called obedience. The real tradition of which you speak, is not the martyr thing, but rather self-love and self-protection, but Christ has called us to self-denial. The whole idea of picking up your cross is to deny yourself the option of violence of any kind and to follow Jesus to the cross. When He had the whole [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal of Heaven at His disposal He denied Himself the use of that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal and commanded us to follow His example. You say you can do nothing about it if God determines you to be a martyr, then why are carrying a gun? Your whole attitude appears to be a contradiction of those words. To really be “prepared for the worst” is to change your heart and to get your eyes off of the world and its ways and to focus on Jesus.

In context:

Romans 13:11-14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

You're going to have to show me where in there Jesus tells us to stand by and do nothing while someone is being raped and murdered.

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." Matthew 25:45

RaymondG · Aug 10, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
In context:

Romans 13:11-14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

You're going to have to show me where in there Jesus tells us to stand by and do nothing while someone is being raped and murdered.

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." Matthew 25:45

You are using extremes to sway people to your side. You are assuming that If one doesnt have a gun, they would be forced to just stand aside and watch bad things happen. I assure you that you are the only one who feels that they would stand and watch if no gun is available.

You are using the unrealistic to justify your carrying a Gun. When all you need to say is that you want to carry one, and that would be enough for me....i wouldnt judge.

Some trust in Chariots and some in horses....

Phil 1:21 · Aug 10, 2018

RaymondG said:
You are using extremes to sway people to your side. You are assuming that If one doesnt have a gun, they would be forced to just stand aside and watch bad things happen. I assure you that you are the only one who feels that they would stand and watch if no gun is available.

You are using the unrealistic to justify your carrying a Gun. When all you need to say is that you want to carry one, and that would be enough for me....i wouldnt judge.

Some trust in Chariots and some in horses....

Raymond, people use firearms to stop rapes and/or murders every day. There's nothing unrealistic about it. And while I thank you for your approval, no one's right to carry a firearm is dependent upon it.

Darkhorse · Aug 10, 2018

SteveIndy said:
Our Lord has given us a direct order to “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.” If you make a provision to do the very thing you say you would not do you are only fooling yourself. You all want to think that you are the heroes in these situations but in fact, the hero is the one who chooses to obey and follow Christ when the chips are down. By your carrying a gun you are saying you are prepared to disobey Christ when His words and His life say the exact opposite. The Bible states that if you love anything on this earth more than you love Christ then you are not worthy of Him. These are not my words but His. There are no circumstances which would override direct obedience to our Commander in Chief who is Christ Himself.

The Christian “tradition” that you characterize as the “martyr thing” is called obedience. The real tradition of which you speak, is not the martyr thing, but rather self-love and self-protection, but Christ has called us to self-denial. The whole idea of picking up your cross is to deny yourself the option of violence of any kind and to follow Jesus to the cross. When He had the whole [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal of Heaven at His disposal He denied Himself the use of that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]nal and commanded us to follow His example. You say you can do nothing about it if God determines you to be a martyr, then why are carrying a gun? Your whole attitude appears to be a contradiction of those words. To really be “prepared for the worst” is to change your heart and to get your eyes off of the world and its ways and to focus on Jesus.

Hmm...lots of inappropriate words there...

When I say "I can do nothing about God making me a martyr", I'm saying that, if that's His will, it will be done, and I couldn't change it even if I wanted to.
And I'm OK with that.

But, I am not the Messiah.
My sacrificial death (or my family's) will not redeem me or anyone else.
However, fighting evil might prevent a lot of needless deaths and suffering.

RaymondG · Aug 10, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Raymond, people use firearms to stop rapes and/or murders every day. There's nothing unrealistic about it. And while I thank you for your approval, no one's right to carry a firearm is dependent upon it.

I wasnt saying that Using weapons to commit crimes arent realistic. Im saying that your idea that if one doesnt have a firearm to protect themselves and their family, they have no other choice but to stand around and just watch...is unrealistic. You are trying to give the impression that if one doesnt own a gun, they arent willing to protect their family, and therefore will just stand and watch as their family is being assaulted. This would be an insulting notice to most men...even those who carry, but forgot their gun home on the day of reckoning.....and this is just an outright silly and untrue notice. There are a few people who would run from danger and leave their family behind....but only a few....and if you are one of these few who, without your gun, you would run and leave your family, or watch them be raped.......then it would be dangerous to give you one.....as you seem to think you are more powerful and courageous with it. I would think it best that Gun carriers are the same with and without the gun...and only see it as a tool that could be useful in certain extreme situations...

SteveIndy · Aug 10, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
In context:

Romans 13:11-14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

You're going to have to show me where in there Jesus tells us to stand by and do nothing while someone is being raped and murdered.

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." Matthew 25:45

I think that selfishness whether it be in deeds of darkness, sexual indecency, carousing, or any of the "desires of the flesh" (works of the flesh) which would include the selfishness of pride and ego of being an armed man. If you arm yourself you do not do it for Christ's sake but for some other reason so the Mat 25 quote does not apply here. Because Jesus did not include in a very detailed language all the minutia of obedience many have found an escape route to do as they please. The spirit of Jesus is clear enough but is rejected because He did not itemize their own particular situation. And, no one is saying "do nothing," those are your words and not mine. On the contrary, do everything, but do not do the very thing you are trying to prevent. Christ would even allow you to lay down your own life instead.

SteveIndy · Aug 10, 2018

Darkhorse said:
Hmm...lots of inappropriate words there...

When I say "I can do nothing about God making me a martyr", I'm saying that, if that's His will, it will be done, and I couldn't change it even if I wanted to.
And I'm OK with that.

But, I am not the Messiah.
My sacrificial death (or my family's) will not redeem me or anyone else.
However, fighting evil might prevent a lot of needless deaths and suffering.

The many martyrs of history were martyrs because they chose to be martyrs and not because God forced it onto them. There were also many who chose not to be martyrs and bowed to the world. In both cases, it was a choice they made that they could do something about. Our Father has presented to us two paths, a broad path and a narrow path and the vast majority have made their choice, the broad path, it is less confusing and allows for more options without having to obey Christ.

Phil 1:21 · Aug 10, 2018

SteveIndy said:
I think that selfishness whether it be in deeds of darkness, sexual indecency, carousing, or any of the "desires of the flesh" (works of the flesh) which would include the selfishness of pride and ego of being an armed man. If you arm yourself you do not do it for Christ's sake but for some other reason so the Mat 25 quote does not apply here. Because Jesus did not include in a very detailed language all the minutia of obedience many have found an escape route to do as they please. The spirit of Jesus is clear enough but is rejected because He did not itemize their own particular situation. And, no one is saying "do nothing," those are your words and not mine. On the contrary, do everything, but do not do the very thing you are trying to prevent. Christ would even allow you to lay down your own life instead.

Your post is incredibly presumptuous in that you censoriously judge the motivation of people whom you do not know. Scripture has something to say about that. Dear brother, worry about your plank before you presume to speak of my speck.

Phil 1:21 · Aug 10, 2018

RaymondG said:
You are trying to give the impression that if one doesnt own a gun, they arent willing to protect their family, and therefore will just stand and watch as their family is being assaulted.

While I enjoy discussing this with you, and welcome questions and comments about what I do post, I trust you will understand my unwillingness to be held accountable for what you choose to read into those posts.

Let's stick to what is actually posted, shall we? Thanks. :oldthumbsup:

As an aside, you may wish to review the post to which I responded (#370).

SteveIndy said:
The real tradition of which you speak, is not the martyr thing, but rather self-love and self-protection, but Christ has called us to self-denial. The whole idea of picking up your cross is to deny yourself the option of violence of any kind and to follow Jesus to the cross.

The poster states that self-protection and violence of any kind (which includes the defense of others) is going against God.

My reply to this post nowhere specified guns.

RaymondG · Aug 10, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
While I enjoy discussing this with you, and welcome questions and comments about what I do post, I trust you will understand my unwillingness to be held accountable for what you choose to read into those posts.

Let's stick to what is actually posted, shall we? Thanks.

I guess I could have told you the same thing in my last post instead of explaining how you made an error in your reading of my previous post. It is clear that you only pick statements out of my posts that you can responded cleverly to, or poke fun at. It would profit no one for us to continue to converse. My apologies for replying to a post of yours. Wont happened again. And yes I know, My approvals, words, apologies are not needed. Yet I will give them regardless.

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