Did John the Baptist sin?

1stcenturylady

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Hi,

The truth is having the Holy Spirit does not stop a person from sinning, the Holy Spirit reveals the will of the Father. A person can sin with the Holy Spirit, for thier own spirit has a will separate to Gods. Jesus could not sin for He was God in the flesh, God's spirit did not have the taint of a human spirit.

Paul said of repentance, "I say these thing so that you do not sin, but if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, [who forgives our sin]".

No man ever born has been sinless, for we have our own will, and our will is never 100% God's will, so JOhn would have sinned. But as we surrender to God's Holy Spirit we will become less and less sinful, but no man woman or child can claim sinlessness, for our will is not God's.

how do you explain 1 John 3:9?
 
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1stcenturylady

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we inherent Christ's righteousness upon salvation... and His righteousness is better than John's, so through inheritance we are better than John

Jesus and John had the same seed of the Father. The Holy Spirit is God. Check out Romans 8:9. Here we see all three of the Trinity needed for salvation.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 
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1stcenturylady

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So you won't answer... you never once, even for a second, since coming to the Lord held another in contempt? No road rage? No family member caused anger? Never brought to hate, even for a moment? You are 100% without sin in the heart since coming to the Lord, 24/7/365 X however many years you have been with Him?

If you say yes, you are the only one since Yeshua to do it.

I have faults, but they are faults of bruised fruit. Jesus prunes them just like everyone. But willful sins that you know are sins? The desire to do them is just not there. Do you? You know they are sins unto death, don't you? Why would you even want to?
 
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aiki

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John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit in the womb, thus he was literally born again before he was even born.

??? Scripture, please.

1 John 3:9 says that those who have the seed (Holy Spirit) do not (willfully) sin, so did John the Baptist ever willfully sin?

The apostle John is speaking of a persistent lifestyle of sin, not the occasional sin. John the Baptist was not sinless any more than any of us are sinless, but we can be sure he didn't maintain a lifestyle of sin.

Another question regarding John the Baptist. Jesus said that there was none greater than John the Baptist, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John. Seeing as John had the Holy Spirit, what was Jesus meaning?

"He that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. The phrase "kingdom of heaven" is used in many senses. Matthew 3:2. It here probably means, in preaching the kingdom of God, or the gospel. It could hardly be affirmed of the obscurest and most ignorant Christian, that he had clearer views than Isaiah or John. But of the apostles of the Saviour, of the first preachers, who were with him, and who heard his instructions, it might be said, that they had more correct apprehensions than any of the ancient prophets, or John." (A. Barnes - Notes on the New Testament Explanatory and Practical.)
 
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narrowgateevangelist

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Sorry, but you give no explanation as to why you believe the apostle John was calling himself still a sinner. Don't you believe he knew he had the Holy Spirit. And did he mean 1 John 3:9 to everyone but himself? You aren't making any proof of "John the baptist sinned, same as John the evangelist." You put up 1 John chapter one which is a contrast of people that are saved, and those who are unsaved. So what was your point?

1 John 1: 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John the evangelist makes it clear. That all of the redeemed still sin. God is also just in cleansing us from all unrighteousness continually through the blood of Jesus. Anyone professing that that sin within us individually is gone. Is deceiving themselves. The text is plain enough to me.
 
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1stcenturylady

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??? Scripture, please.

Luke 1. His mother received the Holy Spirit while John was in the womb. Then it was prophesied that John would be the Prophet of the Highest. But you're right, it doesn't say that John, himself, ever received the Holy Spirit. I guess he was just going to guess all the prophecies.

The apostle John is speaking of a persistent lifestyle of sin, not the occasional sin. John the Baptist was not sinless any more than any of us are sinless, but we can be sure he didn't maintain a lifestyle of sin.

You said this about 1 John 3:9 which says. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

No where does it say "practice" sin in the Greek.
 
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1stcenturylady

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1 John 1: 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John the evangelist makes it clear. That all of the redeemed still sin. God is also just in cleansing us from all unrighteousness continually through the blood of Jesus. Anyone professing that that sin within us individually is gone. Is deceiving themselves. The text is plain enough to me.

Since Adam sinned, all of us have inherited the sin nature from him. That is the person in 1 John 1:8 and 10. Verse 9 is how to become a Christian. 8 and 10 are not Christians yet, though in John's congregation so your point is mute. John and Paul both battled not only Judaizers, but Gnostics too, which the last is the most likely according to the context of the whole book. chapter 4:1-3 is about them, describing them to a "T".

Jesus doesn't leave us with no power to not sin. Many believe his blood merely covers our sins. Others add that Jesus died to just save us from the punishment from our sin, and lets us keep committing them. But Revelation 22:11 shows the separation of people that will go to hell, or heaven. Those who keep sinning, Jesus will say to them "I never knew you."
 
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narrowgateevangelist

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Luke 18: 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I understand that in my life here. I'm the publican. I go to my inner heart house knowing I'm he. Jesus himself affirms my right standing with Him. When I acknowledge my vast shortcomings.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Luke 18: 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I understand that in my life here. I'm the publican. I go to my inner heart house knowing I'm he. Jesus himself affirms my right standing with Him. When I acknowledge my vast shortcomings.

The Pharisee is 1 John 1:8. Is he saved? No. The context of that verse is with the next verse to become saved. Understand now?

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. The Pharisee is also depicted in 1 John 1:6. But Jesus gives us His Holy Spirit who does all the work of changing our desires and killing the sin nature born of Satan, so that we are now born of God. We just need to follow the Spirit, and He gets all the glory.

Don't mock Christians just because they actually follow Christ and don't willfully sin. That warning is to many doubters of 1 John 3:5-9
 
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narrowgateevangelist

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The Pharisee is 1 John 1:8. Is he saved? No. The context of that verse is with the next verse to become saved. Understand now?

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. The Pharisee is also depicted in 1 John 1:6. But Jesus gives us His Holy Spirit who does all the work of changing our desires and killing the sin nature born of Satan, so that we are now born of God. We just need to follow the Spirit, and He gets all the glory.

Don't mock Christians just because they actually follow Christ and don't willfully sin. That warning is to many doubters of 1 John 3:5-9

I'm in no way mocking my brethren in Christ. The illustrated parable from Jesus Messiah of Nazareth, was presented within context.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I'm in no way mocking my brethren in Christ. The illustrated parable from Jesus Messiah of Nazareth, was presented within context.

I understand the parable. But you seemed to imply that those who believe John when he states a Christian doesn't sin, are self righteous like the Pharisee in the parable. Is that not mocking? Yes, it is.
 
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John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit in the womb, thus he was literally born again before he was even born. 1 John 3:9 says that those who have the seed (Holy Spirit) do not (willfully) sin, so did John the Baptist ever willfully sin?

Another question regarding John the Baptist. Jesus said that there was none greater than John the Baptist, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John. Seeing as John had the Holy Spirit, what was Jesus meaning?
Everything is dealt correctly.All men except Jesus Christ who lived,living, and going to live are sinners.Jesus Christ came to this world to save the sinners.Holy Spirit is given to those who will execute the work of God.The person who receive need not be a holy men but to what extent he is ready to serve the Lord. He can be any where in this world in any denomination.The Kingdom of God therefore give Holy Spirit to men to their advantage.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit in the womb, thus he was literally born again before he was even born. 1 John 3:9 says that those who have the seed (Holy Spirit) do not (willfully) sin, so did John the Baptist ever willfully sin?

Yohanan was a nazarite from birth, he never cut his hair and never drank wine or strong drink. He was not born again before birth.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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how do you explain 1 John 3:9?
I have been over this scripture with you before. You can't take a single scripture and make a doctrine from it. The bible is clear, that we should not sin, BUT if we do we have an advocate with the father, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Christians DO from time to time sin. But it should not be normal to sin. A Christian should not sin. BUT if they do, they can be forgiven. You seem to think a Christian HAS to be 100% sinless, that is a misuse of the word of God. The bible actually says if righteousness comes by keeping the law Christ died in vain. But I will not be able to change your mind for you are so certain of your doctrine.

Do you not know that you keep many out of the kingdom of God, for you refuse to offer them forgiveness, your doctrine is a devils doctrine.
 
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Hazelelponi

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1 John 3:5-9

I read the entire thread and there were some points you made which stood out to me so I'm making a general post in response to several things you said.

I just want to point out to you, the sin nature won't leave any one permanently until our bodies are dead and passed on to the next life because the sin nature is in our flesh..

Justification is immediate and complete upon our salvation, but our sanctification, while had in part at the time of our salvation, is an ongoing continual process that will last our whole lives. Hebrews 10:14

And we will never be perfect until we pass from this life to the next and our sin nature (our flesh) is gone. This is why we so look forward to our glorified bodies, in them the fight against flesh ends.

It is very difficult to understand John because of the poetic nature of his writing.. John highlights the dichotomy, everything is either / or, which is fine it's a writing style to show a contrast which we need to see.

But of course, then John goes on and tells you that to know whether or not your saved you must look at whether or not you have love for your brother. He never once said to look at whether or not you stopped committing sins to have surety in your salvation.

The goal is to become like the Master.. but it's a process of sanctification which takes time. It's not overnight, and the Bible doesn't teach instantaneous "goodness" (for lack of a better word atm) at the point of salvation.

It's clear Paul speaks of a warring nature in believers because he talks about flesh being opposed to Spirit - in someone without the Spirit of God or conviction from God there is no opposition between their flesh and their spirit because they do not have a Godly spirit, they have a fleshly one.

Your having some misunderstandings, and they begin with you believing sanctification is a one time thing and not a continual process - that error is where people deviate from the Bible and start believing in sinless perfection and teaching things that aren't even in the Bible such as your sin nature is completely removed at salvation..

I understand you do seem to really believe all this but I do think it might do you well to really pray on why you have to search high and low to come across a church who is teaching what you want to hear where concerns sinlessness.
 
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Marvin Knox

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John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit in the womb, thus he was literally born again before he was even born. 1 John 3:9 says that those who have the seed (Holy Spirit) do not (willfully) sin, so did John the Baptist ever willfully sin?............Jesus said that there was none greater than John the Baptist, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John. Seeing as John had the Holy Spirit, what was Jesus meaning?
John the Baptist was Elijah ("if you can receive it").

As such he likely received the Spirit for the first time in some way not while he was in Elisabeth's womb but "hundreds of year before" while ministering on earth as Elijah. I do not believe that relationship with the Spirit of God entails being "born again" in the way we usually use the term.

Since, according to Jesus, it is the case that John was Elijah - he possessed the Spirit of God from his conception in the manner that Elijah and the other O.T. saints "possessed" Him in their lives while serving the Lord.

The ministries of the Holy Spirit are manifold, including some kind of relationship to all men even the unsaved. John did not have the exact same relationship to the Spirit of God as we do since Christ's basic salvation providing ministry has been completed.

In the O.T. the Spirit was "with" men. In the N.T. the Spirit is "in" men (whatever that mystery entails).

Anyone sealed by the Spirit unto the day of judgment, being completely and eternally justified before God, seated with Christ, and ruling with Him in Heaven - such as we are - is "greater" than any O.T. saint (Enoch, Moses, Samson, Isaiah, and Elijah/John included).
 
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Saint Steven

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John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit in the womb, thus he was literally born again before he was even born. 1 John 3:9 says that those who have the seed (Holy Spirit) do not (willfully) sin, so did John the Baptist ever willfully sin?

Another question regarding John the Baptist. Jesus said that there was none greater than John the Baptist, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John. Seeing as John had the Holy Spirit, what was Jesus meaning?
I read through the thread. Interesting questions/premise/discussion.

I'm not sure we can qualify scripturally that John the Baptist was born again and Spirit filled in the womb. (or even at birth) Nor can we assume he was sinless. Although, when one tries to reason that out, you are confronted with why we could claim Jesus was sinless at birth. (as noted earlier)

This scripture came to my mind immediately, but I don't recall seeing it discussed here. Certainly evidence of Elizabeth being filled with the Holy Spirit at Mary's arrival. And the baby leaped in her womb. (not in the order) And then Elizabeth prophesies in a load voice.

Luke 1:41-44
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

--- EDIT ---

Just found this.

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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John the Baptist was Elijah ("if you can receive it").

As such he likely received the Spirit for the first time in some way not while he was in Elisabeth's womb but "hundreds of year before" while ministering on earth as Elijah. I do not believe that relationship with the Spirit of God entails being "born again" in the way we usually use the term.

Since, according to Jesus, it is the case that John was Elijah - he possessed the Spirit of God from his conception in the manner that Elijah and the other O.T. saints "possessed" Him in their lives while serving the Lord.

Yohanan himself said he was not Eliyahu HaNavi. You would have to believe in reincarnation to say that. He was one "crying in the wilderness"
 
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aiki

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Luke 1. His mother received the Holy Spirit while John was in the womb. Then it was prophesied that John would be the Prophet of the Highest. But you're right, it doesn't say that John, himself, ever received the Holy Spirit. I guess he was just going to guess all the prophecies.

Well, in OT times, the Holy Spirit came upon (and left) a number of people - even people who were clearly not living in obedient submission to God. Samson is a good example. Was the Holy Spirit filling and regenerating these people in the same way he does post-Calvary? I don't see how that could be so since such filling and regenerating is contingent upon the atoning of work of Christ on the cross. Samson and John the Baptist may have had the Spirit filling them with power but neither of them were born-again, that is, spiritually regenerated.

You said this about 1 John 3:9 which says. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

No where does it say "practice" sin in the Greek.

I don't think I used the term "practice" in my comments to you...

The apostle John wrote:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins
, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


The apostle Paul also wrote:

Romans 7:15-23
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me
.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


It seems, in light of these passages (and many others), very clear to me that John could not have meant that a born-again believer never sins. He may have been expressing an ideal but he certainly did not mean that all Christians are in actuality sinlessly perfect.
 
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