The Two Baptisms of the New Testament - Water and the Holy Spirit

Small Fish said:

Yes, but they still claim to have believed on Him, or they would not have prophesied in His name. I understand what type of people these were. They thought they believed and thought they were Christians but was void of His Spirit.

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Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Doing the will of the Father is the point of Christ's story about the Final Judgment. What's strange about the story is that Christ describes people who were doing things that were certainly good things, things of which God would have approved, but who were nonetheless unknown to Christ as his sheep. How can this be? How could these people be doing God's will and yet not doing it? I think the answer is in what they didn't claim. Where is a genuine believer's obedience supposed to start? With the First and Great Commandment, of course:

Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Did the people in Christ's story ever claim obedience to this commandment? No. But wholehearted love for God is where obedience to His will begins. Paul the apostle explained why obedience to this commandment is absolutely essential to walking with God:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Ken Rank said:

I have written an article on this exact topic... but I would like to hear your view.

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Would you PM me the article, I'd like to read it.

aiki said:

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Doing the will of the Father is the point of Christ's story about the Final Judgment. What's strange about the story is that Christ describes people who were doing things that were certainly good things, things of which God would have approved, but who were nonetheless unknown to Christ as his sheep. How can this be? How could these people be doing God's will and yet not doing it? I think the answer is in what they didn't claim. Where is a genuine believer's obedience supposed to start? With the First and Great Commandment, of course:

Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Did the people in Christ's story ever claim obedience to this commandment? No. But wholehearted love for God is where obedience to His will begins. Paul the apostle explained why obedience to this commandment is absolutely essential to walking with God:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

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I really want to subscribe to OSAS but how do you explain 1 Corinthians 10:1-12?

Saint Steven said:

Have you had both baptisms?
No, it's not a denominational thing. Available to all who ask.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

These are the two baptisms.
1) Water baptism.
2) The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts we read this.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that
Samaria had accepted the word of God,
they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers
there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;
they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Four things to note:
1) Those who accepted the word of God in Samaria were new believers.
2) They had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
3) They had not yet "received" the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit
had not yet come "on" any of them.
4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

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Water baptism is an archetytpe of the birth process and of Spiritual rebirth.
Jesus did enough. Do you neeed to add to what Jesus did for your salvation?

swordsman1 said:

If you are a believer then you already know.

1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God"

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I agree, but here I'm referring to this special indwelling that is being referred to. I think we all have the Spirit, but some people claim to have had a separate 'baptism', or impartation of the Spirit. I don't have a position yet except that we all have some measure as believers. I'm just trying to gather information about it.

Invalidusername said:

I don't pretend to know all of the answers. I shall let God judge.

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Salvation happens in three stages. Justification, sanctification and baptism of the Holy Spirit.

These three stages correspond with water, blood and spirit.

1) First stage. Coming out of. We are justified when we believe, then get baptized with water. Think of the Israelites and the red sea or Noah and the flood.

2) Second stage. We are cleansed or sanctified by the Blood of Christ. But you can go through both these stages and not be Sealed by the Holy Ghost, like Judas Iscariot or the five foolish virgins who had no oil (Holy Spirit) in their lamps. This is where you start looking and acting like a Christian. Israel in the Wilderness.

3) Third stage, Go into. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Here you are sealed until the day of your redemption. This is like Israel in the promised land, the five wise virgins with oil in their lamps. Many Christians drops out before getting here. Many are called, few are chosen.

When Jesus was crucified, three substances left His Body. Water and Blood came out after He was pierced and then He gave up the Ghost.
When a baby is born too, you have all of those substances. Water breaks, blood and the life (spirit) in the body.

1 John 5:6-8
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So, make sure your walk does not merely consist of a "coming out of" but also a "going into" stage. This is where most people fail. They fall by the wayside after coming out of the world but fail to enter into the promised land or baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is why few find salvation.

Luke 13:23-24
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Small Fish said:

Salvation happens in three stages. Justification, sanctification and baptism of the Holy Spirit.

These three stages correspond with water, blood and spirit.

1) First stage. Coming out of. We are justified when we believe, then get baptized with water. Think of the Israelites and the red sea or Noah and the flood.

2) Second stage. We are cleansed or sanctified by the Blood of Christ. But you can go through both these stages and not be Sealed by the Holy Ghost, like Judas Iscariot or the five foolish virgins who had no oil (Holy Spirit) in their lamps. This is where you start looking and acting like a Christian. Israel in the Wilderness.

3) Third stage, Go into. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Here you are sealed until the day of your redemption. This is like Israel in the promised land, the five wise virgins with oil in their lamps. Many Christians drops out before getting here. Many are called, few are chosen.

When Jesus was crucified, three substances left His Body. Water and Blood came out after He was pierced and then He gave up the Ghost.
When a baby is born too, you have all of those substances. Water breaks, blood and the life (spirit) in the body.

1 John 5:6-8
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So, make sure your walk does not merely consist of a "coming out of" but also a "going into" stage. This is where most people fail. They fall by the wayside after coming out of the world but fail to enter into the promised land or baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is why few find salvation.

Luke 13:23-24
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

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I was referring to whether Judas was saved and then lost it or whether he was never saved.

Unfortunately you're adding works to salvation but I can understand your point of view.

aiki said:

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Doing the will of the Father is the point of Christ's story about the Final Judgment. What's strange about the story is that Christ describes people who were doing things that were certainly good things, things of which God would have approved, but who were nonetheless unknown to Christ as his sheep. How can this be? How could these people be doing God's will and yet not doing it? I think the answer is in what they didn't claim. Where is a genuine believer's obedience supposed to start? With the First and Great Commandment, of course:

Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Did the people in Christ's story ever claim obedience to this commandment? No. But wholehearted love for God is where obedience to His will begins. Paul the apostle explained why obedience to this commandment is absolutely essential to walking with God:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Click to expand...

Yes, I can't say I disagree.

Saint Steven said:

Have you had both baptisms?
No, it's not a denominational thing. Available to all who ask.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

These are the two baptisms.
1) Water baptism.
2) The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts we read this.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that
Samaria had accepted the word of God,
they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers
there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;
they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Four things to note:
1) Those who accepted the word of God in Samaria were new believers.
2) They had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
3) They had not yet "received" the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit
had not yet come "on" any of them.
4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

From antiquity, the sealing with the Holy Spirit has been called Chrismation and customarily involves annointing the newly baptized believers with oil, even though in this particular instance Peter and John merely layed their hands on them.

I have been Baptized and Chrismated, so yes.

Saint Steven said:

You are not differentiating between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit "in" and the Spirit "on".

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Actually brother, rethink your position based upon our recent posts. (Remembering brackets [the] means added by man and talking about holy spirit power, and an underlined the in any verse I quote means in the Greek when talking about the person). And since you know what I'm talking about, I'm not wasting time with others if they want to argue from their paradigm. So, when I quote scripture I may just leave off the capitalization like a correct interpretation would do, based upon the grammar I've told you about.

Having said that, I want you to consider that it may be you who is not distinguishing the spirit of Christ which is IN us as opposed to the holy spirit power which comes ON us, just like it came upon Jesus when the only holy spirit he had was the holy spirit of Christ in Jesus at his baptism.

I know you don't have a problem believing that 'the gifts of the Spirit' in 1 Corinthians 12 are not 'The Holy Spirit', but 'holy spirit power' gifts/manifestations from the Spirit which He manifests as He wills, as His power flows through us.

Jesus had a holy spirit within Him, which was the spirit of Christ. It is that same spirit that you receive/decomai when your spirit is 'born again'. But Jesus never did any miracles until He received/lambano The Holy Spirit which came upon Him and flowed holy spirit power through Him whenever the Holy Spirit manifested supernaturally through Jesus. But The Holy Spirit as a person, was upon Him according to scripture and NOT IN HIM.

VERSES DEALING WITH 'WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT' was with Jesus.

MAT 3:16 ...[the] Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Definite article above was added by man, but unnecessary, because which/whose spirit was already determined by the associated noun "God".

MAT 12:18 Behold my servant, whom... I will put my Spirit upon him,

Once again "my" predetermines we're talking about God's Spirit upon Jesus.

LUK 4:18 [The] Spirit of [the] Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me...

So the 'spirit of the Lord' (the Lord's spirit) came upon 'the Lord Jesus'??? Say what??? What Lord, and what's the sSpirit difference, not being explained in this verse? 'The Spirit' which came upon the man Jesus is the same Spirit which made Him Lord. He wasn't even called 'Lord Jesus' until long after His baptism of holy spirit power from 'The Spirit' (person). The proof of the fact that He was Lord, was the manifested 'spirit power' which flowed through Him, from The Holy Spirit which was upon Him whenever he preformed miracles, cast out demons etc.

JOH 1:32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 ...the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with [the] holy ghost (power).

In this verse the definite article in Greek is necessary because there is no other point of grammar to distinguish whether we're talking about the person of The Spirit or just spirit power FROM The Spirit.

Now SSteve, provide a verse saying The Holy Spirit was in Jesus. Don't show me a verse with a capitalized S and say that's proof, because it is not. It may be the Christ spirit of Jesus which scribes falsely capitalized because they aren't as spiritually sharp as they think.

I'll stop here. And unfortunately, for me, your thread is moving pretty fast.

Saint Steven said:

Have you had both baptisms?
No, it's not a denominational thing. Available to all who ask.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

These are the two baptisms.
1) Water baptism.
2) The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts we read this.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that
Samaria had accepted the word of God,
they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers
there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;
they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Four things to note:
1) Those who accepted the word of God in Samaria were new believers.
2) They had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
3) They had not yet "received" the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit
had not yet come "on" any of them.
4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

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I hope so yes. I believe so too but I also believe the experience can and should grow. So I will always seek for more of Him to fill me. Being born again is only the beginning and I'm looking to carry on till maturity sets in if the Lord will.

truefiction1 said:

From antiquity, the sealing with the Holy Spirit has been called Chrismation and customarily involves annointing the newly baptized believers with oil, even though in this particular instance Peter and John merely layed their hands on them.

I have been Baptized and Chrismated, so yes.

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And what makes your Chrismation (from antiquity), which is administered at the same time as water baptism different than the also antique Catholic church's separation of both events?

Personally, I was water baptized as an infant and received the Holy Spirit in confirmation at age 12....according to 'the church' anyway. My testimony though is that my 'spiritual reality' proves a bit different than both of those church's 'religious rituals'.

PS If any of this was covered....I haven't read past the first couple posts of page 1.

Small Fish said:

I hope so yes. I believe so too but I also believe the experience can and should grow. So I will always seek for more of Him to fill me. Being born again is only the beginning and I'm looking to carry on till maturity sets in if the Lord will.

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Just be careful about putting your faith in feelings and spiritual experiences rather than faith in Christ. This is an error so many people fall into.

And according to your 3 point list of salvation: I think I know where you are getting your views from(probably 2 Peter 19-21, Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 10).

However salvation isn't a 3 point step thing. Every time you see someone get saved, they always receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately. There are no delays of days, months, and years. That's not biblical.

So now you have to make the decision of who committed the apostasy: true born again believers or professing faith in Christ. Honestly I don't think that's important for us to know. Just focus on yourself and if you mess up, don't delay confessing and correcting your walk. If you don't, you are in danger of either chastisements or a hardened heart.

Saint Steven said:

Have you had both baptisms?
No, it's not a denominational thing. Available to all who ask.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

These are the two baptisms.
1) Water baptism.
2) The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts we read this.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that
Samaria had accepted the word of God,
they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers
there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;
they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Four things to note:
1) Those who accepted the word of God in Samaria were new believers.
2) They had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
3) They had not yet "received" the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit
had not yet come "on" any of them.
4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

I tell people this all the time but some are suck in their philosophies and stuff sadly

Invalidusername said:

Just be careful about putting your faith in feelings and spiritual experiences rather than faith in Christ. This is an error so many people fall into.

And according to your 3 point list of salvation: I think I know where you are getting your views from(probably 2 Peter 19-21, Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 10).

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Among others yes. These Scriptures support my belief exactly.

Invalidusername said:

However salvation isn't a 3 point step thing. Every time you see someone get saved, they always receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately. There are no delays of days, months, and years. That's not biblical.

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I do believe it is a process and it will explain howcome so many fall short. Like Judas etc.

Invalidusername said:

So now you have to make the decision of who committed the apostasy: true born again believers or professing faith in Christ. Honestly I don't think that's important for us to know. Just focus on yourself and if you mess up, don't delay confessing and correcting your walk. If you don't, you are in danger of either chastisements or a hardened heart.

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I tend to agree with you on this point It is the work of the Lord in your life that matters.

SkyWriting said:

Water baptism is an archetytpe of the birth process and of Spiritual rebirth.
Jesus did enough. Do you neeed to add to what Jesus did for your salvation?

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Isn’t saying that someone has to accept Jesus as their savior adding to it though Or the sinners prayer adding to it too? If you’re born with it why would you need to do that? I’m assuming you believe in that if you don’t believe in what the guy said.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

Isn’t saying that someone has to accept Jesus as their savior adding to it though? If you’re born with it why would you need to do that? I’m assuming you believe that’s salvation

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Thief on the cross was an un-baptized false convert then according to you but Jesus said otherwise.

Small Fish said:

Among others yes. These Scriptures support my belief exactly.


I do believe it is a process and it will explain howcome so many fall short. Like Judas etc.



I tend to agree with you on this point It is the work of the Lord in your life that matters.

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It isn't really your task to figure out the mysteries of God. I know we all have an innate desire to KNOW them but they will be revealed to us in due time.

Hillsage said:

And what makes your Chrismation (from antiquity), which is administered at the same time as water baptism different than the also antique Catholic church's separation of both events?

Personally, I was water baptized as an infant and received the Holy Spirit in confirmation at age 12....according to 'the church' anyway. My testimony though is that my 'spiritual reality' proves a bit different than both of those church's 'religious rituals'.

PS If any of this was covered....I haven't read past the first couple posts of page 1.

Click to expand...

I received Baptism and Chrismation as religious rituals, because Jesus Christ and the Apostles practiced religious rituals, having instituted them in His Church because God designed humankind in such a way that we do well to observe such rituals. My "spiritual reality" is not separated from human reality, which is both spiritual and physical, because I still observe the rituals that God gave to us, which are great gifts and blessings to us.

My Baptism and Christmation occurred within minutes of one another.

Invalidusername said:

Thief on the cross was an un-baptized false convert then according to you but Jesus said otherwise.

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The wise thief was baptized in his own blood as a martyr who confessed Christ to be Lord, in the event of his own death. There are different methods through which one may receive baptism. This does not negate the value of the common baptismal ritual, which remains a great blessing from God.