"Behold, Jehovah is one Jehovah"... What does this mean...?

Dave-W · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
I know! Right? I suppose it might be more accurate to say “word for wor” rather tan “literal” and “thought for thought” rather than “interpretive”. I suppose something can be lost in translation with either method!

No - word for word is lacking as well, ESPECIALLY in the Hebrew of the OT. Hebrew has at least 4 known levels of meaning, and all are true. So for each chapter or maybe verse, you would need 4 separate translations.

And, everywhere the NT quotes the OT Hebrew, those 4 levels are there as well.

Neogaia777 · Aug 9, 2018

Dave-W said:
Ex 3:2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

Verse 3 makes it clear that it was God Himself, and not just an angel.

BTW, when the Hebrew text is Malchay Yud Hay Vav Hay, or "Angel of the Lord," it is referring to a theophany - God Himself appearing in a physical form.

God through Christ (the voice), through an angel, of his/theirs, (the manifestation of, or in, or of, the burning bush)... They are all "one", and always act as one, being of the same body, (all) called "God" or Jehovah (YHWH)...

God Bless!

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Acts 7:30

So, it seems to me that a flame does not an angel make, at least not in form. A flame doesn’t look like an angelic being. That being said, perhaps God is being said to have been an angel in purpose (e.g., a messenger) rather than in form?

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Dave-W said:
No - word for word is lacking as well, ESPECIALLY in the Hebrew of the OT. Hebrew has at least 4 known levels of meaning, and all are true. So for each chapter or maybe verse, you would need 4 separate translations.

And, everywhere the NT quotes the OT Hebrew, those 4 levels are there as well.

Fascinating!

Neogaia777 · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
So, it seems to me that a flame does not an angel make, at least not in form. A flame doesn’t look like a person. That being said, perhaps God is being said to have been an angel in purpose (e.g., a messenger) rather than in form?

I think God uses angels to make things happen and they are him, cause they are one (body) with him/each other, ect...

I don't think we have ever literally heard or seen the Father God, specifically, by himself alone, but we hear God through Christ, and we hear Christ, being his voice or mouth, and we have seen (in (physical) manifestations, or manifested "things") , angels...

And uses them to perform miracles, signs and wonders, affect, move the forces of the environment, ect...

God Bless!

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I think God uses angels to make things happen and they are him, cause they are one (body) with him/each other, ect...

I don't think we have ever literally heard or seen the Father God, specifically, by himself alone, but we hear God through Christ, and we hear Christ, being his voice or mouth, and we have seen (in (physical) manifestations, or manifested "things"), angels...

God Bless!

So, yeah! That’s a different take. How then do we discern which of the two interpretations is true?

Neogaia777 · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
So, yeah! That’s a different take. How then do we discern which of the two interpretations is true?

What two?, can you be more specific...?

Neogaia777 · Aug 9, 2018

Through Angels: Galatians 3:19, Hebrews 2:2...

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
What two?, can you be more specific...?

Sure! I think (correct me if I’m wrong) you are saying something like this:

(A) Jehovah is one God who is many angels.

Other Christians tell me:

(B) Jehovah is one God in three persons, and there are many angels who aren’t Jehovah.

And there is a third alternative:

(C) Jehovah is one God who is one person, and there are many angels who aren’t Jehovah.

There are also other alternatives, but I suppose we may discuss those three, for the sake of brevity.

HTacianas · Aug 9, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Where it says, Behold, Jehovah (YHWH) is one Jehovah (YHWH)... What does this mean...?

Since it appears that there are many Jehovah's, where there is actually only one, even though it appears to be many, because all other Jehovah's, (or god's) (or angels) do not have their own will, and never ever act independently of what the "head" of that body, (I guess you could say), (the Father) dictates, or decree's or causes to make to move, or motivates to move or act, or make happen, ect...

The Holy Angels are Jehovah's or Jehovah, but and they do not even have their own will, being only extensions of the head (of) Jehovah, that does all their thinking for them, and has dictated all their thoughts and actions and/or in-actions (decisions/choices) from the very beginning... They are parts of the, or that one body, that is the one Jehovah... And they are all "one" with Jehovah God and one with each other, or one another... In that they always, "always" act in complete unison and perfect harmony, and never independently from one another or from the head, ever, for that may not even be possible...

That's the Holy Angels... But, what about the fallen ones...? Can they act independently of, or from, or outside of the head...? Or not...? Or is that impossible, since God made them all, and fully knew them all from the very moment of making them... Including all their choices, actions, in-actions, ect, everything that would happen with them, all of that, and made them all the way they were/are, and nothing can happen outside of that design... Is it possible for something to happen outside of that (design) (or will), or not...?

God knew all, or the head knows all, from the moment of the body being formed or made, and he made it to be a certain way, and it is, (or is it), completely impossible to ever operate outside of that Jehovah's design...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

You seem to be referring to Deuteronomy 6:4:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

That is a cornerstone of modern Judaism, meaning to them that there is only one God. But examining it, briefly, "Hear O Israel, YHVH ELOHIM is one YHVH". If you hold to the idea of a "J" (or "Y") text and an "EL" text of the bible -as I do- this may be the joining of those two texts. So to say:

Hear O Israel, YHVH and ELOHIM are One: YHVH

Those ancient followers of YHVH had their own texts of scripture and used the tetragrammaton as the name of God, while those followers of ELOHIM used ELOHIM or "EL" as the name of God. It is merely my opinion that Deuteronomy 6:4 was notice to the Israelites that YHVH and ELOHIM are the same God.

Dave-W · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
So, it seems to me that a flame does not an angel make, at least not in form.

Angels (different classes of them) are varied in how they appear. So that may or may not be true.

What we DO know is "our God is a consuming fire."( Heb 12.29 quoting Deut 4.24), and that man is made in that image. And here is an example of where even the most literal translation falls apart.

Gen 2.23b She shall be called Woman (ishah), because she was taken out of Man (ish).

What the english fails to note is that the word "man" אִישׁ is the exact same spelling as "aish" or "fire." (Hebrew has no vowels) The association is clear in Hebrew; but there is no way to show that in English.

Neogaia777 · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
Sure! I think (correct me if I’m wrong) you are saying something like this:

(A) Jehovah is one God who is many angels.

Other Christians tell me:

(B) Jehovah is one God in three persons, and there are many angels who aren’t Jehovah.

And there is a third alternative:

(C) Jehovah is one God who is one person, and there are many angels who aren’t Jehovah.

There are also other alternatives, but I suppose we may discuss those three, for the sake of brevity.

"Jehovah is one God who is made up of three persons as the "head" of the body (parts) of/that are angels, who are "all one" with themselves, and with one another, and each other."

Is what I would say...

John 17:21-23 is not just taking about the triune God, but the God who is also the angels, and they each other, and one another with each other and one another...

God Bless!

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Dave-W said:
Angels (different classes of them) are varied in how they appear. So that may or may not be true.

What we DO know is "our God is a consuming fire."( Heb 12.29 quoting Deut 4.24), and that man is made in that image. And here is an example of where even the most literal translation falls apart.

Gen 2.23b She shall be called Woman (ishah), because she was taken out of Man (ish).

What the english fails to note is that the word "man" אִישׁ is the exact same spelling as "aish" or "fire." (Hebrew has no vowels) The association is clear in Hebrew; but there is no way to show that in English.

Fascinating! So, I suppose it’s not actual fire. What then can we make of the metaphor? Let’s see. Fire:
• consumes (or destroys) matter
• consumes or feeds on air
• spreads as it consumes
• produces heat
• produces light

In what ways are your soul or mine like that?

Dave-W · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
In what ways are your soul or mine like that?

That point has been debated (by Jewish rabbis) for over a millennium.

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
"Jehovah is one God who is made up of three persons as the "head" of the body (parts) of/that are angels, who are "all one" with themselves, and with one another, and each other."

Is what I would say...

John 17:21-23 is not just taking about the triune God, but the God who is also the angels, and they each other, and one another with each other and one another...

God Bless!

OK. Trying to comprehend. In John 17:20-21 , Jesus is praying for his apostles (and I suppose also you or me). So, are you saying you or I are Jehovah, too?

Dave-W · Aug 9, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I would just like the Holy Angels acknowledged, but I note that is also very, very important to not think of them as being "separate" beings from God, cause they are not at all, nor are they ever...

So Lucifer and his minions are part of God???

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Dave-W said:
That point has been debated (by Jewish rabbis) for over a millennium.

Yeah, yeah! I suppose my feet are too soiled to tread on such holy ground where the wise have stood and seen!

Dave-W · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
Yeah, yeah! I suppose my feet are too soiled to tread on such holy ground where the wise have stood and seen!

Not the point.

The point is there may be no definitive answer to that. Or there may be a number of answers, all correct.

spockrates · Aug 9, 2018

Dave-W said:
Not the point.

The point is there may be no definitive answer to that. Or there may be a number of answers, all correct.

I enjoy testing the limits of my knowledge to see if I might expand it. Would you like to consider any of these answers? (It’s OK if you’d rather not! Just asking.

Neogaia777 · Aug 9, 2018

spockrates said:
OK. Trying to comprehend. In John 17:20-21 , Jesus is praying for his apostles (and I suppose also you or me). So, are you saying you or I are Jehovah, too?

We will be one day I think. I think that may be some of our's destinies.

God Bless!

"Behold, Jehovah is one Jehovah"... What does this mean...?

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