Why preach the gospel?

mkgal1

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Jesus very clearly describes Hades in Luke 16, a place of paradise and fire, separated by a gap, and which people are conscious. Those in the fire describe their experience as being tormented.

Jesus also mentions the tormented - even torture - aspect of hell in Mt 18 where he describes God as a master who in the end In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Not sticky at all. Matt 25:46 refers to the the sheep/goat judgment of the nations at Christ's second coming - not the great white throne judgment. The goats go into aiōnion punishment while the sheep enter into aiōnion life. These sheep are those people who are alive at Jesus' return and because of their kindness/good works to the brethren they are allowed to remain living on the earth during Christ's millennial reign. The millennium is 1,000 years so the sheep have life during the aiōnion or 1,000 year age. Likewise the goats are punished for the same 1,000 year age. Aiōnion in this context cannot mean "eternal." A better translation would be age-during or life pertaining to the age.

I don't deny that there is "torment" after death. I actually believe we ALL will endure some amount of "torment" (because none of us are perfect and we all have our blind spots to our own sin). The key is (IMO) to understand the word used that's interpreted as "torment" (first).

Strong's Greek Cognate: #931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ment-basanizo-likely-means.html#ixzz5Nbb2VTUF

Another time that "básanos" is used is in Matthew 4:24:

And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and TORMENTS, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and He healed them.

"Love is the touchstone by which the reality of truth is perceived, and by it shall all men know that ye are My disciples" (John xiii.35)

Both of these parables (the sheep and the goats & the rich man and Lazarus) are about how God despises what ["wordly" and unrighteous] man sees as valuable (v 15 in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus). Both are about "the great reversal" of those that trampled on the poor (in this life) experiencing "torment" in the next life. But I only see this as refining.....healing...."burning off the dross" in order for them to be made more pure (just like the refinement of precious metals).

These parables DO beg the question (in my mind): if a person believes this is an eternal destination with NO grace after our death - then why isn't more emphasis being placed on the importance of how we treat the poor and marginalized? IOW.....often it's the ones that are asserting these passages are speaking of a final destiny.....a "no going back and no changes made" sort of thing...."you're going to this place -as your life has already determined your destiny- and there will be no way for you to get to the other side" is basically what is presented....and they are often also the ones that say that "how we get there" isn't based on what we do.....it's based on a "profession of faith" (and that doesn't seem to align with the text).
 
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mkgal1

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Something else I notice in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Abraham calls the rich man, "son", which is a term of endearment.

Bible Study Tools said:
But Abraham said, Son [a tender word-- Joshua 7:19 ], remember [ Proverbs 5:11-14 ] that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here [where a different order pertains from that of the earth]he is comforted and thou art in anguish. [The woes received by Lazarus are not spoken of as his. He neither earned nor deserved them ( Revelation 7:13-17 ). 1 Corinthians 4:9 ; 2 Corinthians 4:7 ), and in its small details he had shown great faithfulness. The rich man had the stewardship of wealth, with its accompanying obligation of generosity. This obligation he had esteemed as too contemptibly small to deserve his notice; but in neglecting it, he had inadvertently been unfaithful in much. See verse 10. This has been the sin of omission on the part of the rich man, and his sin of commission answered as a complement to it, for he had been guilty of that money-loving self-indulgence which was condemned by Jesus and justified by the Pharisees (verses 14, 15). No other crime is charged against the rich man, yet he is found in torment. But the rich man during his lifetime had been so deceived by his wealth that he had failed to detect his sin. Moreover, as he indicates in verse 28, a like deception was now being practiced upon his brethren. Thus the parable justifies the term "unrighteous" which Jesus had given to mammon at verses 9, 11.] ~ https://www.biblestudytools.com/com...ions/parable-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus.html
 
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Oldmantook

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I don't deny that there is "torment" after death. I actually believe we ALL will endure some amount of "torment" (because none of us are perfect and we all have our blind spots to our own sin). The key is (IMO) to understand the word used that's interpreted as "torment" (first).
If "we ALL will endure some amount of "torment" because of none of us are perfect, then are you claiming that the atoning blood of Jesus is insufficient for covering our sins? That would be heretical. There is no scripture which even hints of the redeemed being tormented after death.

Strong's Greek Cognate: #931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).
The original discussion referred to Matt 25:46 where the word translated as "punishment" is kolasin - not basanos. Having said that, the meaning of kolasis derived from the secular literature has to do with remedial punishment or correction instead of torture or retributive punishment.

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.
From The Apostles’ Creed by William Barclay.

These parables DO beg the question (in my mind): if a person believes this is an eternal destination with NO grace after our death - then why isn't more emphasis being placed on the importance of how we treat the poor and marginalized? IOW.....often it's the ones that are asserting these passages are speaking of a final destiny.....a "no going back and no changes made" sort of thing...."you're going to this place -as your life has already determined your destiny- and there will be no way for you to get to the other side" is basically what is presented....and they are often also the ones that say that "how we get there" isn't based on what we do.....it's based on a "profession of faith" (and that doesn't seem to align with the text).
Salvation is not only based exclusively on believing (Jn 3:16 but also on obeying (Heb 5:9). A Christian is not justified by faith alone but by works - which is the outward evidence of one's inward faith (Js 2:24). Therefore, what one does is just as important as what one believes.

If kolasis is for the purpose of correction, then what happens to those who become "corrected?" It does not make sense that once the goal of correction is met, the punishment remains ongoing. Thus in my opinion, there is grace after death for the unredeemed.
1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
One way to read this verse is that God is the Savior of all men but only to those who believe. Thus ”all” men is limited by the subset of those who are believers. Thus ALL cannot mean all, as all only refers to believers. However the verse states ”especially” and not ”only.” For example, I could say I enjoy eating all ice cream; especially chocolate ice cream. In this sense, I don’t mean I only enjoy eating chocolate ice cream but rather I mean that I enjoy eating all ice cream including chocolate ice cream in particular. So does this verse mean ”only” or ”including.” To determine this, it is incumbent upon us to examine Paul’s usage of the word ”especially” in the Greek ”malista” (Strong’s 3122).
In Gal 6:10 and elsewhere Paul does not use malista to mean only. ”So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.” Obviously, Paul does not mean that we should do good only to those in the faith. He means that we should do good to ALL people INCLUDING those in the faith. Paul employs malista in exactly the same manner in 1 Tim 5:8;17; 2 Tim 4:13; Phil 4:22. Titus 1:10. Based upon Paul’s use of malista, I can only conclude that God is the Savior of ALL men INCLUDING believers – not only believers.
 
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mkgal1

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If "we ALL will endure some amount of "torment" because of none of us are perfect, then are you claiming that the atoning blood of Jesus is insufficient for covering our sins?
Nope. That's NOT what I'm claiming. I believe He died for every one of us....and that His love and power are victorious (IOW...."none are lost").

His sacrifice doesn't just "cover our sin" (see Hebrews 10). He "takes away the sin of this world". But....that doesn't mean He just turns His head (in my belief).

His "fire" isn't punishment.....it's His presence (like in the OT, when He led them with a pillar of fire) ....and we know He is love (and His love transforms.....restores....heals).

I'm sure most of us carry a lot of baggage from hearing the word "torment" and "hell" to mean something else (more like an angry rage that is "beating out" our sin....and "giving us what we 'asked for' ") but I don't see how that can be reconciled with a loving God that wishes that "none should perish". The Bible tells us "perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is NOT made perfect in love" (1 John 4:18).

It seems to me that to NOT believe that God's sacrifice eventually will save all is considering that His sacrifice was insufficient (and weak).
 
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Oldmantook

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Nope. That's NOT what I'm claiming. I believe He died for every one of us....and that His love and power are victorious (IOW...."none are lost").

His sacrifice doesn't just "cover our sin" (see Hebrews 10). He "takes away the sin of this world". But....that doesn't mean He just turns His head (in my belief).

His "fire" isn't punishment.....it's His presence (like in the OT, when He led them with a pillar of fire) ....and we know He is love (and His love transforms.....restores....heals).

I'm sure most of us carry a lot of baggage from hearing the word "torment" and "hell" to mean something else (more like an angry rage that is "beating out" our sin....and "giving us what we 'asked for' ") but I don't see how that can be reconciled with a loving God that wishes that "none should perish". The Bible tells us "perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is NOT made perfect in love" (1 John 4:18).

It seems to me that to NOT believe that God's sacrifice eventually will save all is considering that sacrifice was insufficient (and weak).
Did you not read what I wrote that punishment does not mean torture and instead means correction? When one corrects a child, a parent may institute some form of punishment but it certainly should not involve torturing one's own child. Punishment in the lake of fire is remedial and not meant to torment forever.
So based on what you wrote above, are you a Christian Universalist as I am and do you believe in the early church doctrine of Apokatastasis?
 
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1213

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Do you think those who never heard the Gospel will go to this "Hell" you speak of? If so, for how long? Will those who never heard be better off than those who heard & rejected the Gospel?

Does much evangelizing cause more harm than good? Yes. How many millions reject the Gospel because it is associated with a being who tortures billions forever or annihilates them into endless nonexistence? Hundreds of millions? …

Firstly, the Gospel, good news is, sins are forgiven and death is won. Now, I think it is good news and I like to hear it and I would like to hear it, if I would not have heard it already. Love is the reason to tell it to others.

However, that is not all, Jesus told also:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

That means, sins forgiven, doesn’t automatically mean one will have eternal life, because it is for righteous. If person is not righteous, there must happen change in person so that he becomes righteous to get the eternal life. Righteousness is wisdom of the just, right understanding that makes person do what is good and right.

Those who have never heard of Gospel, or about Jesus, are judged by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

The condition for eternal life is the same, one has to be righteous. Person who has not heard of Jesus, may also be counted righteous by that scripture. That is why not hearing doesn’t mean automatically hell. But telling the message, can be helpful and give happiness, that is why I think it is always good, if it is told as the Bible tells. If people preach false teachings and not what the Bible tells, that can be and has been harmful.
 
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mkgal1

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There is no scripture which even hints of the redeemed being tormented after death.
Doesn't the parable of the rich man and Lazarus more than hint at that? Abraham called him, "son"....wouldn't that imply the rich man was one of God's chosen people?

What would be the purpose of the "torment" that's mentioned in this parable (or the preaching to the unrighteous in Hades) if it weren't for restoration (refinement)? To taunt them?
 
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mkgal1

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Did you not read what I wrote that punishment does not mean torture and instead means correction?
Honestly, no, I missed that (I'm in a hurry and just skimming posts at the moment). I agree....His way is always toward correction (refinement).
 
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mkgal1

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Punishment in the lake of fire is remedial and not meant to torment forever.
So based on what you wrote above, are you a Christian Universalist as I am and do you believe in the early church doctrine of Apokatastasis?
I agree :)

YES.....I DO believe in the early church doctrine of Apokatastasis.
 
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ClementofA

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When God flooded the earth, Noah's ark was not laden with a world population of heathen babies. They felt the wrath laid upon them for the crimes of their parents. Call it just, or call it unjust, but that's the way it is.

Wrath? More like a gift, beyond all gifts possible, if popular Christianity is true that such innocents always automatically get a "don't go to hell, but to heaven" card. IOW they are forced into heaven by irresistible grace, & given no choice in the matter, since Love Omnipotent evidently doesn't care about a free choice being made to love Him. Instead He forces His love upon these. If only all created beings were so lucky. It seems salvation is a matter of pure luck, if popular beliefs were true. But they're not:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tims-of-infanticide-all-go-to-heaven.8037317/
 
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ClementofA

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The original discussion referred to Matt 25:46 where the word translated as "punishment" is kolasin - not basanos. Having said that, the meaning of kolasis derived from the secular literature has to do with remedial punishment or correction instead of torture or retributive punishment.

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.
From The Apostles’ Creed by William Barclay.

"The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed."

It seems Barclay was mistaken re the sentence i quoted above. See, for one comment of many examples i could post:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversali...e-of-u-koine-linguas-arguments-part-6-of/5389

https://forum.evangelicaluniversali...f-u-koine-linguas-arguments-part-6-of/5389/19


Also, BTW, timoria is used in Hebrews 10:26-29.
 
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Oldmantook

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Doesn't the parable of the rich man and Lazarus more than hint at that? Abraham called him, "son"....wouldn't that imply the rich man was one of God's chosen people?

What would be the purpose of the "torment" that's mentioned in this parable (or the preaching to the unrighteous in Hades) if it weren't for restoration (refinement)? To taunt them?
I specifically referred to the "redeemed" = saved believer. The saved believer is never tortured after death so I don't have any idea of what you're referring to.
 
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mkgal1

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ClementofA

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It is what's used there. Verse 29 says that's what's "deserved".....but what did Jesus say about those that crucified them in gospels?

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do?

I would distinguish between those who, like Saul (who became Paul the apostle), "know not what they do", and those who have been enlightened & know what they do & that they have chosen to continually willfully sin anyway (Heb.10:26-29).

Still, in both cases, no matter how the Lord relates to them, He is correcting them for their own good. Whether it involves basanos, kolasis or timoria. IMO.

But, perhaps, you interpret that differently. Which is okay if you do ;
 
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Oldmantook

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"The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed."

It seems Barclay was mistaken re the sentence i quoted above. See, for one comment of many examples i could post:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversali...e-of-u-koine-linguas-arguments-part-6-of/5389

https://forum.evangelicaluniversali...f-u-koine-linguas-arguments-part-6-of/5389/19


Also, BTW, timoria is used in Hebrews 10:26-29.
So, could it be that those people referred to in Heb 10 incur greater punishment (timoria) than those who incur kolasis? That would make the most sense to me as v.29 states: "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot...." I believe this verse refers to believers who have purposely sinned against God and hence God judges them more severely than someone else who may have not known any better. In other words, the punishment for someone who was previously saved and possessed knowledge of the truth is much worse than the punishment for someone who was never saved to begin with.
 
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JacksBratt

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(ECT = refers to someone who opines that the bible teaches Eternal Conscious Torments)

In 5 point ECT Calvinism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? If all of the elect will be saved no matter what & all of the nonelect will be lost no matter what, then there is no urgency to preach the gospel.

In ECT Arminianism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? Will Love Omnipotent damn to ECT anyone who never heard?

Do you think those who never heard the Gospel will go to this "Hell" you speak of? If so, for how long? Will those who never heard be better off than those who heard & rejected the Gospel?

Does much evangelizing cause more harm than good? Yes. How many millions reject the Gospel because it is associated with a being who tortures billions forever or annihilates them into endless nonexistence? Hundreds of millions?

Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for fire insurance really saved?

What are the statistics on those who profess Christ & later renounce Christianity?

As to evangelizing, IMO that's a good idea if you are led to do so or are called to be an evangelist. Are all evangelists? No.

So why evangelize? Because Christ commanded it. Which is the same answer a Calvinist gave me.

In Catholicism & Eastern Orthodoxy is there an urgency to preach the Gospel or send missionaries to the jungles of Africa? Or is it more a case of evangelizing the world without preaching & by one's life?

l
Oh... I don't know... maybe because this is what Jesus commanded us to do.... Just a hunch?

Mark 16:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
 
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ClementofA

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So, could it be that those people referred to in Heb 10 incur greater punishment (timoria) than those who incur kolasis? That would make the most sense to me as v.29 states: "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot...." I believe this verse refers to believers who have purposely sinned against God and hence God judges them more severely than someone else who may have not known any better. In other words, the punishment for someone who was previously saved and possessed knowledge of the truth is much worse than the punishment for someone who was never saved to begin with.

That conclusion seems to agree with what we see in Scripture in general.
 
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ClementofA

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Oh... I don't know... maybe because this is what Jesus commanded us to do.... Just a hunch?

Mark 16:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Exactly what i said in the OP.

Though people often don't read more than the title of a thread, or the first bit of the OP, before responding.
 
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mkgal1

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I specifically referred to the "redeemed" = saved believer. The saved believer is never tortured after death so I don't have any idea of what you're referring to.
Do you not believe that we're all redeemed? Even if you don't.. I had mentioned that Abraham had called the rich man "son"... so that seems to imply to me that he was one of God's chosen people (Israelites) - do you see a difference between the Israelites and "saved believers"? Were they not saved by God's covenant?
So, could it be that those people referred to in Heb 10 incur greater punishment (timoria) than those who incur kolasis? That would make the most sense to me as v.29 states: "How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot...." I believe this verse refers to believers who have purposely sinned against God and hence God judges them more severely than someone else who may have not known any better. In other words, the punishment for someone who wasⁿ0possessed knowledge of the truth is much worse than the punishment for someone who was never saved to begin with.
Personally I think this verse is referring to the religious leaders that committed deicide -the greatest sin someone could commit against God. The passage goes on to say that God judges His people.
 
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Oldmantook

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Do you not believe that we're all redeemed? Even if you don't.. I had mentioned that Abraham had called the rich man "son"... so that seems to imply to me that he was one of God's chosen people (Israelites) - do you see a difference between the Israelites and "saved believers"? Were they not saved by God's covenant?
The Israelites were God's chosen people. They were "saved" as long as they remained obedient. Those who were disobedient, were no longer redeemed. That is why the rich man ended up in torment in Sheol. Same thing with the believer today. The redeemed believer remains redeemed as long as he continues to believe (Jn 3:16) AND obey (Heb 5:9). A believer who remains disobedient/unrepentant and continues to sin ends up in the lake of fire. This FORMER believer will eventually be redeemed but he will saved only through the fire (1 Cor 3:15). On the other hand, believers who remain faithful and obedient NEVER suffer torment/fire.

Personally I think this verse is referring to the religious leaders that committed deicide -the greatest sin someone could commit against God. The passage goes on to say that God judges His people.
Heb 6:4 refers to any regenerate believer. Timoria indicates that punishment for those who fall away from the faith is worse than punishment (kolasis) for unbelievers.
 
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