Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Dave L · Aug 8, 2018

Seville90210 said:
I know you mentioned Gary DeMar in your OP Dave, I've saw it. It's consistent when you look up the quotes, Gary's name is everywhere showing him claiming LaHaye said this and that. I also saw you posting the same OP on other sites.

As for Gary's ministry, he's fooled many people into believing preterism. Many readers just don't do their homework and can be had. On the other hand, many can spot Gary DeMar's false teachings. As for me, I would not touch Gary's work with a 10 foot pole. And you shouldn't be reading them either. Instead read only the bible.

We can attack the messenger but the message remains unchanged. You would need to read the Lahaye books before you can honestly say DeMar is wrong or lying. Again, one lie would sink his ministry.

Seville90210 · Aug 8, 2018

Dave L said:
We can attack the messenger but the message remains unchanged. You would need to read the Lahaye books before you can honestly say DeMar is wrong or lying. Again, one lie would sink his ministry.

Dave, is this not sinking in?

This is what you posted in your OP.

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

This is misleading because the bible doesn't fit a whole paragraph of information into just one single verse. Many verses contain just 1-3 sentences. You have to fit several verses together to get the the information you're looking for like the verses below which clearly indicates a Pre Tribulation rapture.

Here's your evidence. Rapture, then tribulation, then second coming.

Matthew 24:36-39 New Living Translation (NLT)
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.

In Matthew 24:36-39 when Jesus comes at the rapture, people on earth are eating, drinking celebrating, getting marrying, doing normal daily routines much like what it is on earth today. People will not realize what is about to happen!

This is Jesus' analogy of people's behavior when the rapture hits. This can only happen outside and before the tribulation. This coming is a pre tribulation event.

Luke 21:25-27 New Living Translation (NLT)
25 “And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. 26 People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory.

But in Luke 21:25-27, Jesus gives the analogy of people's behavior just before the second coming. And here we find nations in distressed and the earth in turmoil. PEOPLE ARE TERRIFIED OF WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN AS PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IS AHEAD AS THEY SEE IT COMING. Where as in Matthew 24:39, people did not see what was coming.

In Jesus' own words, two very distinct comings. There is absolutely a Pre Tribulation rapture ahead.

Seville90210 · Aug 8, 2018

Dave L said:
Again, one lie would sink his ministry.

So there's nothing false about preterism and all Gary DeMar's teachings are true?

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2018

Seville90210 said:
It's not my problem. If you read Jeremiah 31 carefully, it refutes your doctrine. I'm sure you didn't know this otherwise you wouldn't be posting Jeremiah 31.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (Paul was speaking to the Corinthian church.)

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

The New Covenant: Bob George

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
http://www.regal-network.com/dispensationalism/pdfs.htm

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2018

DavidPT said:
One thing that is in question though, since there are varying opinions, when does the DOTL initially begin? I think some opinions place it beginning during the GT at the start of the GT, yet I don't see how that opinion could be correct though.

The 4th seal = Death (Which is the martyrdom of the saints and others by the Antichrist by the enforcement of the Mark).
The 5th seal = The recently martyred saints cry out for justice up in Heaven under the alter of God.
The 6th seal = God responding to the martyred saints cry for justice by bring in the Day of Wrath or the Day of the Lord to punish the devil, the Antichrist, and it's world system once and for all (concluding with the return of our Lord destroying the nations and this Earth being purified by fire similar to the global flood but far more effective at erasing the previous civilization).

The Day of the Lord will not happen until the man of sin shows himself in the temple that he is god.
The Day of the Lord is a period of time of vengeance and the finishing up of justice upon this world.
The Day of the Lord begins with the breaking of the 6th seal because the signs of both the (a) Day of the Lord and (b) the 6th seal show the sun turning black and the moon turning blood red. See my bolded highlighted colored words in blue and red in the verses below.

"Signs Leading Up to the Day of the Lord:

The Sixth Seal:
(Part 1 - Sun goes dark, moon turns blood red, and a great earthquake, etc.):
(After These Signs The Days of Vengeance Ends):

The Sixth Seal Opened:

• Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

• Matthew 24:29-30a

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

• Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

• Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

• Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

• Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Admonishments on the "Day of the Lord" before the "Second Coming":
(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):

• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT

Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.

• 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

• Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):

Description of the Day of the Lord:

• Zephaniah 1:14-15

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

• Zechariah 14:1 NLT

Watch, for the day of the LORD is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you!

The Day of the Lord Begins:
(The Great Day of Wrath):

The Sixth Seal: (Part 2)
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1: God the Son appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne):

Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:

• Revelation 6:14-17

And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?

Note: The "great day of his wrath" is also just another way of saying the "Day of the Lord" which is a period of time of vengeance starting at the 6th seal and ending with the return of Jesus destroying the nations and this world being purified with fire so that the Millennium can then begin (with Christ ruling).

BABerean2 · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:

And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?

Note: The "great day of his wrath" is also just another way of saying the "Day of the Lord" which is a period of time of vengeance starting at the 6th seal and ending with the return of Jesus destroying the nations and this world being purified with fire so that the Millennium can then begin (with Christ ruling).

You did an excellent job of showing that the same signs in the sun, moon, and stars, are found in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ, and also in Revelation chapter 6.
We also have many of the same characters in chapter 6 and in chapter 19 of the Book of Revelation. (mighty men, captains, free, bond,)

Then you turned around and claimed it is an extended period of time instead of a day, to make your doctrine work.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

The end of chapter 6 is also a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.
You proved it with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars.

.

Dave L · Aug 8, 2018

Seville90210 said:
So there's nothing false about preterism and all Gary DeMar's teachings are true?

I don't believe Preterism is true. But Gary quoting Lahaye has nothing to do with Preterism. His quotes either stand on their own or they do not. I don't think we should pass judgement until we verify his quotes are wrong. Again, if they were false, many would have proven him wrong by now.

Dave L · Aug 8, 2018

Seville90210 said:
Dave, is this not sinking in?

This is what you posted in your OP.

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

This is misleading because the bible doesn't fit a whole paragraph of information into just one single verse. Many verses contain just 1-3 sentences. You have to fit several verses together to get the the information you're looking for like the verses below which clearly indicates a Pre Tribulation rapture.

Here's your evidence. Rapture, then tribulation, then second coming.

Matthew 24:36-39 New Living Translation (NLT)
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.

In Matthew 24:36-39 when Jesus comes at the rapture, people on earth are eating, drinking celebrating, getting marrying, doing normal daily routines much like what it is on earth today. People will not realize what is about to happen!

This is Jesus' analogy of people's behavior when the rapture hits. This can only happen outside and before the tribulation. This coming is a pre tribulation event.

Luke 21:25-27 New Living Translation (NLT)
25 “And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. 26 People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory.

But in Luke 21:25-27, Jesus gives the analogy of people's behavior just before the second coming. And here we find nations in distressed and the earth in turmoil. PEOPLE ARE TERRIFIED OF WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN AS PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IS AHEAD AS THEY SEE IT COMING. Where as in Matthew 24:39, people did not see what was coming.

In Jesus' own words, two very distinct comings. There is absolutely a Pre Tribulation rapture ahead.

First of all, LaHaye said it. If he's wrong you need to convince his followers. I'm obviously not one of them.

And you are reading Rapture Theory into these verses. We need to read them the way saints before the mid 1800s read them. If there is great tribulation as you think, will anyone be marrying or giving in marriage when Jesus returns?

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2018

Personally for me (in being honest with myself when reading Scripture): I would say the only Scriptural evidence against a Pre-Trib Rapture at first glance are the following pieces of Scripture.

John 5:28-29, Isaiah 26:19, 1 Corinthians 15:53, and 1 John 3:2.

For they appear to be implying that when we are called up from the dead, will be given new physical flesh and blood bodies (like that of Jesus Christ). This appears to contradict the dead in Christ rising from the dead at the 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 Pre-Trib Rapture view (Whereby they do not have there physical flesh and blood bodies yet until after the Millennium).

But after closer examination, these portions of Scripture are not in contradiction with the Pre-Trib Rapture view. How so?

#1. John 5:28-29 says, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This passage is clearly talking about the flesh and blood bodily resurrection of the saints and also of the wicked. So how can the saints hear his voice from the graves if the dead saints in Christ were called to rise at the trump of God in the Pre-Trib Rapture? It sounds like they are hearing God twice to be risen from the grave, which appears to be a contradiction. However, it is not a contradiction. They will be able to HEAR HIS VOICE only when they receive their new physically resurrected bodies. So the saints are not hearing the voice of the Lord while they are still in a spiritual state or with them being in the realm of the dead (Sheol) within the heart of the Earth. For the spirit body does not hang around the grave site or where a person's ashes were laid. We know from the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man that men who die go to a certain spiritual realm or location (that is not Heaven) (i.e. Sheol). So this is talking about how the dead will one day wil be able to hear his voice after they receive their new bodies from Christ. It's talking about the new state and not the old state.

#2. Isaiah 26:19 says, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

My fellow Pre-Trib brethren and myself use Isaiah 26:19-21 to defend the Pre-Trib. Verses 20-21 really do sound like it defends the Pre-Trib Rapture view. But verse 19 is a little tricky because it appears to be implying that it is a physical flesh and blood body type resurrection. For verse 19 says:

(a) We shall live.
(b) We who dwell in the dust (physical remains) are to awake and sing.
(c) The Earth (the physical realm) shall cast out it's dead (our ashes or skeletal remains will change somehow).

This sounds like it contradicts the Rapture view of the dead in Christ rising up in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (with a flesh and blood body resurrection happening after the Millennium). However, it is not a contradiction.

Jesus appears to allude to two different kinds of resurrections.

30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:30-32).

Jesus says in one resurrection we shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Then Jesus says in regards to the resurrection of the dead (Which is another resurrection), He says, He is the God of the living and not of the dead.

The point I am trying to make here is that in the Rapture, we will be as the angels of God and we will be considered as alive unto God (because angels are not dead to God). Yet, angels do not have flesh and blood bodies like we do. Granted, they can even be physical enough to eat physical food (See Genesis 18:8). They can be physical enough to grab hold of a person's hand (Genesis 19:16).

But what about the command for us to awake and sing while being in the dust and the Earth casting out it's dead in Isaiah 26:19? This sounds like a flesh and blood body resurrection because it talking about physical remains being brought forth.

The simple solution to this is that in the Rapture, our physical remains in our graves or our ashes will be translated into angelic bodies to meet the Lord in the air. For if those who are alive are suddenly gone and disappeared, it makes sense that the physical dead remains (in the Rapture) are also disappeared, as well.

But again, what about those being called out the graves in John 5:28 in light of all this?

Well, John 5:28 still works with the Rapture view because the Tribulation saint never had a Rapture. So their physical remains can be called out of their graves still. Raptured saints will also be called out of their graves in the Rapture and in time they will eventually receive a physical flesh and blood body. So there is no contradiction. We also have to understand that Jesus also refers to the resurrection of us being like angels. This is no doubt a part of the resurrection of life. It is just that for the church, or the bride will go through a special unique taking home in angelic bodies before they are given their new flesh and blood physical bodies on the New Earth (After the Millennium).

#3. 1 Corinthians 15:53 says,
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

The phrase "sons of God" is a reference to angels in the Old Testament. While the New Testament primarily uses the phrase "sons of God" in reference to believers. In this case in John 1:12, it is talking about angels. For the Lord gave us power to become angels (by the power of His resurrection in the Rapture) to those who believe on his name. Angels are immortal.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).

So immortality is not exclusive to just our final state in the flesh and blood bodily resurrection. We will have new immortal spirit bodies like that of angels. Angels are spiritual beings. Angels have spirit bodies. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (See 1 Corinthians 15:44).

#4. 1 John 3:2 says,
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Many (Including my fellow Pre-Trib brethren) believe that this verse is saying we will have the same new glorified body as Christ had at the resurrection (as if it was not the same flesh and blood He had prior to the resurrection). But this is not what it is saying. For Christ will forever live (in the same flesh and blood body He always had) to make intercession for us (See Hebrews 7:25; Also see Revelation 1:18). When John says, when Christ shall appear, we shall be like him, he is referring to Christ's behavior and or holiness. We will no longer have a corruptible sin nature. For 1 John 3:3 says, "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Meaning, every believer (who truly has this hope in Jesus) purifies himself, even as Christ is pure and or holy.

But what about the part of 1 John 3:2 that says, "we shall see him as he is"? Is this not suggestive of how we will are looking at the appearance of Christ? Not exactly. First, 1 John 3 as a whole does not deal with the physical state or appearance of Christ. Second, Scripture says, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." (2 Corinthians 5:16). So when we see Christ, we are seeing are not regarding Him in how He looks but we are seeing Him in for how He loves us and how He is holy in conduct and behavior. We are seeing how He operates.

Dave L · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Personally for me (in being honest with myself when reading Scripture): I would say the only Scriptural evidence against a Pre-Trib Rapture at first glance are the following pieces of Scripture.

John 5:28-29, Isaiah 26:19, 1 Corinthians 15:53, and 1 John 3:2.

For they appear to be implying that when we are called up from the dead, will be given new physical flesh and blood bodies (like that of Jesus Christ). This appears to contradict the dead in Christ rising from the dead at the 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 Pre-Trib Rapture view (Whereby they do not have there physical flesh and blood bodies yet until after the Millennium).

But after closer examination, these portions of Scripture are not in contradiction with the Pre-Trib Rapture view. How so?

#1. John 5:28-29 says, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This passage is clearly talking about the flesh and blood bodily resurrection of the saints and also of the wicked. So how can the saints hear his voice from the graves if the dead saints in Christ were called to rise at the trump of God in the Pre-Trib Rapture? It sounds like they are hearing God twice to be risen from the grave, which appears to be a contradiction. However, it is not a contradiction. They will be able to HEAR HIS VOICE only when they receive their new physically resurrected bodies. So the saints are not hearing the voice of the Lord while they are still in a spiritual state or with them being in the realm of the dead (Sheol) within the heart of the Earth. For the spirit body does not hang around the grave site or where a person's ashes were laid. We know from the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man that men who die go to a certain spiritual realm or location (that is not Heaven) (i.e. Sheol). So this is talking about how the dead will one day wil be able to hear his voice after they receive their new bodies from Christ. It's talking about the new state and not the old state.

#2. Isaiah 26:19 says, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

My fellow Pre-Trib brethren and myself use Isaiah 26:19-21 to defend the Pre-Trib. Verses 20-21 really do sound like it defends the Pre-Trib Rapture view. But verse 19 is a little tricky because it appears to be implying that it is a physical flesh and blood body type resurrection. For verse 19 says:

(a) We shall live.
(b) We who dwell in the dust (physical remains) are to awake and sing.
(c) The Earth (the physical realm) shall cast out it's dead (our ashes or skeletal remains will change somehow).

This sounds like it contradicts the Rapture view of the dead in Christ rising up in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (with a flesh and blood body resurrection happening after the Millennium). However, it is not a contradiction.

Jesus appears to allude to two different kinds of resurrections.

30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:30-32).

Jesus says in one resurrection we shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Then Jesus says in regards to the resurrection of the dead, He says, He is the God of the living and not of the dead.

The point I am trying to make here is that in the Rapture, we will be as the angels of God and we will be considered as alive unto God (because angels are not dead to God). Yet, angels do not have flesh and blood bodies like we do. Granted, they can even be physical enough to eat physical food (See Genesis 18:8). They can be physical enough to grab hold of a person's hand (Genesis 19:16).

But what about the command for us to awake and sing while being in the dust and the Earth casting out it's dead in Isaiah 26:19? This sounds like a flesh and blood body resurrection because it talking about physical remains being brought forth.

The simple solution to this is that in the Rapture, our physical remains in our graves or our ashes will be translated into angelic bodies to meet the Lord in the air. For if those who are alive are suddenly gone and disappeared, it makes sense that the physical dead remains (in the Rapture) are also disappeared, as well.

But again, what about those being called out the graves in John 5:28? John 5:28 still works (with the Rapture view) because the Tribulation saint never had a Rapture. So their physical remains can be called out of their graves still. We also have to understand that Jesus also refers to the resurrection of us being like angels. This is no doubt a part of the resurrection of life. It is just that for the church, or the bride will go through a special unique taking home in angelic bodies before they are given their new flesh and blood physical bodies on the New Earth (After the Millennium).

#3. 1 Corinthians 15:53 says,
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

The phrase "sons of God" is a reference to angels in the Old Testament. While the New Testament primarily uses the phrase "sons of God" in reference to believers, in this case, it is talking about angels. For the Lord gave us power to become angels (by the power of His resurrection in the Rapture) to those who believe on his name. Angels are immortal.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).

So immortality is not exclusive to just our final state in the flesh and blood bodily resurrection. We will have new immortal spirit bodies like that of angels. For Paul says there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body (See 1 Corinthians 15:44).

#4. 1 John 3:2 says,
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Many (Including my fellow Pre-Trib brethren) believe that this verse is saying we will have the same new glorified body as Christ had at the resurrection. But this is not what it is saying. For Christ will forever live (in a flesh and blood body) to make intercession for us (See Hebrews 7:25; Also see Revelation 1:18). When John says, when Christ shall appear, we shall be like him, he is referring to Christ's behavior and or holiness. We will no longer have a corruptible sin nature. For 1 John 3:3 says, "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Meaning, every believer (who truly has this hope in Jesus) purifies himself, even as Christ is pure and or holy.

But what about the part of 1 John 3:2 that says, "we shall see him as he is"? Is this not suggestive of how we will are looking at the appearance of Christ? No. First, 1 John 3 as a whole does not deal with the physical state or appearance of Christ. Second, Scripture says, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." (2 Corinthians 5:16). So when we see Christ, we are seeing are not regarding Him in how He looks but we are seeing Him in for how He loves us and how He is holy in conduct and behavior.

Thanks for taking the time for this. The way I believe is that since the 1800s, an artificial framework called Dispensationalism became the lens through which people began reading the bible. And the Pre-Trib Rapture is a big part of this framework. But it works like this. You have a shopping list. And you take it to the market (bible) and begin filling your cart (agenda) with the items on the list. And so, in this mind set, people find scriptural support for the theory even though it involves taking scripture out of context and inserting already fulfilled prophecies into their shopping cart.

Central to this scheme is a gap nowhere mentioned in the bible between Daniel's 69th and 70th week. The gap runs more than 2000 years now without fulfillment. But if we remove the artificial gap, we can see according to history, Jesus was the subject of Daniel 9:27, and not some future Antichrist. Just as there is no gap, there is no pre-trib rapture based on it.

DavidPT · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The 4th seal = Death (Which is the martyrdom of the saints and others by the Antichrist by the enforcement of the Mark).
The 5th seal = The recently martyred saints cry out for justice up in Heaven under the alter of God.
The 6th seal = God responding to the martyred saints cry for justice by bring in the Day of Wrath or the Day of the Lord to punish the devil, the Antichrist, and it's world system once and for all (concluding with the return of our Lord destroying the nations and this Earth being purified by fire similar to the global flood but far more effective at erasing the previous civilization).

The Day of the Lord will not happen until the man of sin shows himself in the temple that he is god.
The Day of the Lord is a period of time of vengeance and the finishing up of justice upon this world.
The Day of the Lord begins with the breaking of the 6th seal because the signs of both the (a) Day of the Lord and (b) the 6th seal show the sun turning black and the moon turning blood red. See my bolded highlighted colored words in blue and red in the verses below.

"Signs Leading Up to the Day of the Lord:

The Sixth Seal:
(Part 1 - Sun goes dark, moon turns blood red, and a great earthquake, etc.):
(After These Signs The Days of Vengeance Ends):

The Sixth Seal Opened:

• Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

• Matthew 24:29-30a

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

• Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

• Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

• Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

• Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Admonishments on the "Day of the Lord" before the "Second Coming":
(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):

• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT

Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.

• 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

• Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):

Description of the Day of the Lord:

• Zephaniah 1:14-15

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

• Zechariah 14:1 NLT

Watch, for the day of the LORD is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you!

The Day of the Lord Begins:
(The Great Day of Wrath):

The Sixth Seal: (Part 2)
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1: God the Son appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne):

Conclusion of the Sixth Seal:

• Revelation 6:14-17

And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?

Note: The "great day of his wrath" is also just another way of saying the "Day of the Lord" which is a period of time of vengeance starting at the 6th seal and ending with the return of Jesus destroying the nations and this world being purified with fire so that the Millennium can then begin (with Christ ruling).

Unless I overlooked something in your post, or misunderstood something in your post, I would say we are on the same page here.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2018

Dave L said:
Thanks for taking the time for this.

You are most welcome.

You said:
Central to this scheme is a gap nowhere mentioned in the bible between Daniel's 69th and 70th week. The gap runs more than 2000 years now without fulfillment. But if we remove the artificial gap, we can see according to history, Jesus was the subject of Daniel 9:27, and not some future Antichrist. Just as there is no gap, there is no pre-trib rapture based on it.

Gaps are nothing new in the Bible. Jesus closed the book when He was reading the Isaiah prophecy. Jesus read the part of the portion of Isaiah that was being fulfilled before their very eyes. Then Jesus stopped before reading the next sentence (Which talks of His return). There is a gap of time in Isaiah's prophecy here before the words "and the day of vengeance of our God."

Luke 4:16-20
16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him."

Isaiah 61:1-2
1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;..."

Note: The part in red above is what Jesus left out. There is a gap of time before this next sentence in red will be fulfilled.

Also, God forgives as far as from the East unto the West (See Psalms 103:12). This is because there is no East pole or West pole like there is a South pole or North pole. East and West do not have points. So God's grace abounds and stops the clock. God will remember our sins no more if we repent (See Hebrews 8:12). It will be as if our past time never existed. Grace. That is what the Gap is all about. It is space and or time given for man to repent.

Dave L · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Gaps are nothing new in the Bible. Jesus closed the book when He was reading the Isaiah prophecy. Jesus read the part of the portion of Isaiah that was being fulfilled before their very eyes. Then Jesus stopped before reading the next sentence (Which talks of His return). There is a gap of time in Isaiah's prophecy here before the words ".

Luke 4:16-20
16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him."

Isaiah 61:1-2
1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;..."

Note: The part in red above is what Jesus left out. There is a gap of time before this next sentence in red will be fulfilled.

Also, God forgives as far as from the East unto the West (See Psalms 103:12). This is because there is no East pole or West pole like there is a South pole or North pole. East and West do not have points. So God's grace abounds and stops the clock. God will remember our sins no more if we repent (See Hebrews 8:12). It will be as if our past time never existed. Grace. That is what the Gap is all about. It is space and or time given for man to repent.

Try telling the banker your book has a bunch of zeros making your $70 into $70,000. This is the kind of gap we're talking about. 70 weeks = 70 weeks, not 70,000 weeks.

DavidPT · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
You are most welcome.

Gaps are nothing new in the Bible. Jesus closed the book when He was reading the Isaiah prophecy. Jesus read the part of the portion of Isaiah that was being fulfilled before their very eyes. Then Jesus stopped before reading the next sentence (Which talks of His return). There is a gap of time in Isaiah's prophecy here before the words "and the day of vengeance of our God."

Luke 4:16-20
16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him."

Isaiah 61:1-2
1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;..."

Note: The part in red above is what Jesus left out. There is a gap of time before this next sentence in red will be fulfilled.

Also, God forgives as far as from the East unto the West (See Psalms 103:12). This is because there is no East pole or West pole like there is a South pole or North pole. East and West do not have points. So God's grace abounds and stops the clock. God will remember our sins no more if we repent (See Hebrews 8:12). It will be as if our past time never existed. Grace. That is what the Gap is all about. It is space and or time given for man to repent.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Here's a random example of an obvious gap. I seriously doubt----And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground---that that was meaning when they were born. But the way some folks tend to read passages at times, I'm surprised they even noticed a gap of time in these two verses.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2018

Dave L said:
Try telling the banker your book has a bunch of zeros making your $70 into $70,000. This is the kind of gap we're talking about. 70 weeks = 70 weeks, not 70,000 weeks.

There is a gap because there is grace. All debts are paid or forgiven in Christ. Well, if we repent, meaning we seek the Lord's forgiveness and we forsake our evil ways. If we sin again, we have to confess and forsake that sin (obviously). But all our past sins are forgiven. That TIME is remembered no more as if it never existed. An age or time of grace is applied to your life when you repented or sought out the Lord's forgiveness. It is remembered no more. It's as if that time was never there because it is covered by Christ's sacrifice.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You did an excellent job of showing that the same signs in the sun, moon, and stars, are found in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ, and also in Revelation chapter 6.
We also have many of the same characters in chapter 6 and in chapter 19 of the Book of Revelation. (mighty men, captains, free, bond,)

Thank you.

You said:
Then you turned around and claimed it is an extended period of time instead of a day, to make your doctrine work.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

The end of chapter 6 is also a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.
You proved it with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars.

The Bible actually defines the "Day of the Lord" as a specific "time" or "time period."

"For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen." (Ezekiel 30:3).

Besides, not all the events mentioned in the "Day of the Lord" can happen within a day. The return of Jesus Christ (His Second Coming to destroy the nations) takes place at the 6th vial or bowl judgment (Which is waaaaay later after the 6th seal). Also, the Earth will be purified with fire on the Day of the Lord, too. But that happens after Christ's return. In other words, you cannot cram all these events and make them work in one day.

mkgal1 · Aug 8, 2018

Douggg said:
There are always going to be people who say there will be no rapture to escape the Day of the Lord beginning years, right up to the day the rapture takes place.

That's awfully presumptuous of you to claim you know WHY we say there's no biblical support for a rapture of "God's chosen people".

ISTM if anyone is wishing to escape (and believe they're entitled to it), it's those that believe they just say a prayer and they're symbolically issued a "ticket" to be redeemed later that gets them out of tribulation.

To offer some clarity of my beliefs...I don't believe ANY of us "escape" God's purging fire. Otherwise....how will this verse ever be able to take place (are all the people in your church free from arguments....and hurting one another?):

Revelation 21:5-6 ~ He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”

Bible Highlighter · Aug 8, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's awfully presumptuous of you to claim you know WHY we say there's no biblical support for a rapture of "God's chosen people".

ISTM if anyone is wishing to escape (and believe they're entitled to it), it's those that believe they just say a prayer and they're symbolically issued a "ticket" to be redeemed later that gets them out of tribulation.

To offer some clarity of my beliefs...I don't believe ANY of us "escape" God's purging fire. Otherwise....how will this verse ever be able to take place (are all the people in your church free from arguments....and hurting one another?):

Revelation 21:5-6 ~ He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”

But what does Luke 21:36 mean to you when it says we shall escape all these things? How exactly are you escaping all these things in your view?

mkgal1 · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
But what does Luke 21:36 mean to you when it says we shall escape all these things? How exactly are you escaping all these things in your view?

I don't believe that's addressed to us. I believe Jesus was warning of the destruction of the Temple and was addressing "those in Judea" (v 21). Just look earlier in that same chapter (and the entire context):

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times (Luke chapter 21)

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another every one of them will be thrown down.”

7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life. 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Dave L · Aug 8, 2018

Jason0047 said:
There is a gap because there is grace. All debts are paid or forgiven in Christ. Well, if we repent, meaning we seek the Lord's forgiveness and we forsake our evil ways. If we sin again, we have to confess and forsake that sin (obviously). But all our past sins are forgiven. That TIME is remembered no more as if it never existed. An age or time of grace is applied to your life when you repented or sought out the Lord's forgiveness. It is remembered no more. It's as if that time was never there because it is covered by Christ's sacrifice.

If you insert a gap into Daniel's 70 weeks, you rewrite scripture. And since it is eschatological,you add to the book of Revelation. = serious mistake.

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

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Psalm 118:26

Psalm 118:26

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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