Predestination is based on Free Will

BNR32FAN said:

Perhaps I could’ve worded that better. I didn’t mean God has determined who will pass or fail. I meant He has written in the book of life those He had foreseen who will be victorious. Sorry I’m at work and have to make quick replies sometimes.

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Very kind post, thanks. Again, the book was from the beginning, but not the names. That fits better with other passages.

Dorothy Mae said:

Very kind post, thanks. Again, the book was from the beginning, but not the names. That fits better with other passages.

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Actually I think they were written in the book of life before creation.

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:9‬

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4‬

You know, BNR, you seem like an honest intelligent gentle soul. You deserve better than Calvinism. So Ill give a suggestion. Don’t presume to know how people come to the knowledge of the truth that saves them. If you think about it, do you really need this information?

Jesus talked about 4 different reactions to the gospel. This is what I would concentrate on and not what God is supposedly doing. He draws but we choose to believe and repent or repent and believe. He has his part and we have ours. Would be typical God if all weren’t alike. Jesus told some to leave and some to stay, some to sell all, and one to be born again. There was no one formula fits all.

You’ll get a lot more understanding from God if you admit you don’t know, only want the truth and are willing to remain ignorant until you get truth from Him. That’s my advise.

BNR32FAN said:

Actually I think they were written in the book of life before creation.

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There’s no evidence of this, no description and verses that speak of God looking for those whose hearts are his. That speaks against a foregone conclusion regarding individuals.

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:9‬

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That grace was not given to us before there was us. It was in Christ before the world began. It cannot be given to creatures unable to receive.

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4‬

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The goal is that his own be holy and blameless, no chosen specifically for heaven as opposed to hell. That is that it says. There is no “chosen for heaven” but only chosen to be holy. Are you holy?

Dorothy Mae said:

There’s no evidence of this, no description and verses that speak of God looking for those whose hearts are his. That speaks against a foregone conclusion regarding individuals.
That grace was not given to us before there was us. It was in Christ before the world began. It cannot be given to creatures unable to receive.The goal is that his own be holy and blameless, no chosen specifically for heaven as opposed to hell. That is that it says. There is no “chosen for heaven” but only chosen to be holy. Are you holy?

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It doesn’t say we are made holy before the foundation of the world it says we were chosen to be holy before the foundation of the world. The choice happened before the foundation of the world. As far as am I Holy I don’t know. Hold on let me confess and ask forgiveness really quick....ok now I’m Holy

Doveaman said:

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

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Dorothy Mae said:

Yes you did. Shall I get the quote?

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Yes, Please get the quote and show me where I said "So God first acts and changes a man making him cruel because he doesn’t do that for all." It did not happen and it is offensive that you would change what I said. If anything makes man cruel, it is original sin not God.

Dorothy Mae said:

No one says we are saved by works. Better stop bearing that dead horse.

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In your theology works do come into play in salvation in the sense that they keep you saved. So then, when you stand before the judgement throne, you can brag and boast about how you kept yourself saved by your works, but the louse that failed to do works next to you deserves his fate. So in the end, it is a works related salvation.

Works is the consistent result of salvation, but the cause of keeping one saved. The Christian "works out" his salvation.

The person who appears to have lost his salvation was never ever saved in the first place. His repentance was false and his faith not true from the beginning. 1 John 2:19 picture this...
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

Dorothy Mae said:

But repentance is absolutely required and must be done or there is no salvation from sin. Repentance is not a work but we must do it.
Actually “born again” is used once said to one man who was not a disciple. No doubt. But that which is regenerated can again degenerate.

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No work of God will "degenerate." Any savior who fails to save to the uttermost is no savior at all. It is obvious that you think Christ shed his blood for someone and the shed blood of Christ was just not enough.

Dorothy Mae said:

Ok so faith is our job, right? No, your view is way too limited. The blood of Jesus was necessary for salvation as it has to do with justice.

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First, faith is a gift of God given to me, not a work of man for God.
Phil 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

Second, the difference is our views is huge. I notice your low view of the shed blood of Christ when you say... "The blood of Jesus was necessary for salvation" You look upon the shed blood of Christ as insufficient for salvation, it also requires something from man. I look upon the shed blood as completely sufficient to save to the uttermost by itself. Within the shed blood is the right of Christ to regenerate a mans nature, give the gift of faith, and save. This is called sola gratia, or by grace alone.

Dorothy Mae said:

Grace is a different subject. But since you brought it up, grace is never described in the Bible as unmerited favor. It isn’t merited either. Do you know who finds grace in Gods eyes?
Agsin, election to be holy and blameless? Are you? Salvation is NOT mentioned.

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Grace is not a different matter, salvation is totally by grace alone, through faith alone, by Christ alone. That is the gospel and there is no other gospel by which men can be saved.

I think it better that I drop out here.

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

No one says we are saved by works.

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We are, ultimately (Romans 2:6-8).

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

But repentance is absolutely required and must be done or there is no salvation from sin.

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That's right (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

But that which is regenerated can again degenerate.

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That's right, because of free will (2 Peter 2:20-22),

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

Ok so faith is our job, right?

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Not initially, for it's a miraculous gift (Ephesians 2:8). But Christians can wrongly employ their free will to fall away from the faith, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

The blood of Jesus was necessary for salvation as it has to do with justice.

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Exactly right (Romans 3:25).

Also, Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus is not only a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of His soul (Isaiah 53:11, KJV) was infinite in amount, even though it was not infinite in duration. And so His suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who are not God have finite souls, in order for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11, KJV) an infinite amount, when elect people repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

Do you know who finds grace in Gods eyes?

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Only elect individuals (Romans 9:11-24).

Dorothy Mae said in post #118:

Agsin, election to be holy and blameless? Are you? Salvation is NOT mentioned.

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Note that the idea of salvation is mentioned in the discussion regarding election in Romans 9:11-24, for it refers to God's mercy (Romans 9:15-16) toward elect people, "unto glory" (Romans 9:23), which includes the glory of eternal life (Romans 8:17-25, Romans 2:6-7). And it refers to God's lack of mercy, and His wrath, toward nonelect people, "to destruction" (Romans 9:22), meaning that wrath which is opposed to salvation (Romans 2:5-8, Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9), the wrathful destruction (but not annihilation) which is eternal (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Mark 9:45b-46).

Also, other passages show that election (God's choosing) does determine salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), but only initial salvation (Acts 13:48b), not ultimate salvation. For ultimate salvation will depend on the continued obedience of Christians subsequent to their initial salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

Also, election is different than salvation in that elect people are elected (chosen) by God before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10). During their lifetime, elect people are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they are elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while elect people cannot become nonelect, after they become Christians they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Loren T. said in post #119:

You will never find a calvinist who does not believe that he is among the elect.

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Note that any believer in the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he or she is elect. For only elect people become believers in the Gospel (Acts 13:48b).

Also, the doctrine of "the elect", which means "the chosen", is not from Calvinism, but is taught by the Bible (Mark 13:20, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 5:13; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 John 1:1,13).

Also, Calvinism is mistaken because its non-Biblical doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Don Maurer said in post #147:

The person who appears to have lost his salvation was never ever saved in the first place. His repentance was false and his faith not true from the beginning. 1 John 2:19 picture this...
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

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1 John 2:19 does not require that apostate Christians were never real Christians, but can mean that apostate Christians were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real Christians, who have their names written in the Book of Life, can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the Church because of its continued, and correct, insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).

Don Maurer said:

Yes, Please get the quote and show me where I said "So God first acts and changes a man making him cruel because he doesn’t do that for all."

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This us what you said, “ the nature of God's foreknowledge is different in that it is God that first changes the nature of man in regeneration. “ So God first changes a man BEFORE that man makes a choice. That’s what “first” means. This makes God cruel because He first changes some and not others for no reason. Now I don’t believe God first changes a
man so he can believe. Nothing in the Bible indicates this kind of manipulation.

It did not happen and it is offensive that you would change what I said. If anything makes man cruel, it is original sin not God.

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There are christian theologies that accept the idea that God is cruel. Of course they’re don’t admit that. They use “sovereign” as that sounds nicer. But the theology nevertheless accepts cruelty and this bears fruit on the lives of those who embrace it.

In your theology works do come into play in salvation in the sense that they keep you saved.

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Nope. Faith does. But faith is not a work. Repentance is not a work either but we must do it.

So then, when you stand before the judgement throne, you can brag and boast about how you kept yourself saved by your works, but the louse that failed to do works next to you deserves his fate.

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This is a very common fruit of Calvinism. A cruel assasination of others. The theology assures Heaven no matter how mean you are to others. Untruths are also acceptable demonstrationing the typical intolerance of other ideas.

Works is the consistent result of salvation, but the cause of keeping one saved. The Christian "works out" his salvation.

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Your words do not demonstrate this.

The person who appears to have lost his salvation was never ever saved in the first place.

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I know the theology. Jesus said they fall AWAY from the faith but, hey, he didn’t know about calvinism.

His repentance was false and his faith not true from the beginning. 1 John 2:19 picture this...
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They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

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Who are the “they” here....anti-christs. Which calvinist is prepared to tell those who fell away they are antichrist? It what it says though.

No work of God will "degenerate."

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It’s called degrade or entropy and I can give numerous examples of works if God that do so.

Any savior who fails to save to the uttermost is no savior at all.

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Ah so YOU judge who a Savior is by YOUR personal standards.

It is obvious that you think Christ shed his blood for someone and the shed blood of Christ was just not enough.

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I read what the Bible says and Jesus says eternal life is.....knowing the One True God.

First, faith is a gift of God given to me, not a work of man for God.
Phil 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

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Doesnt say God first gives faith (to some and not others for no justifiable reason.) Might be we must respond FIRST.

Second, the difference is our views is huge. I notice your low view of the shed blood of Christ when you say... "The blood of Jesus was necessary for salvation" You look upon the shed blood of Christ as insufficient for salvation, it also requires something from man. I look upon the shed blood as completely sufficient to save to the uttermost by itself. Within the shed blood is the right of Christ to regenerate a mans nature, give the gift of faith, and save. This is called sola gratia, or by grace alone.

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Your view is called CHEAP GRACE by those who know God. It costs you nothing at all and you insist God is responsible for all your obedience and faith. Explains your unchristian words to me personally.

Grace is not a different matter, salvation is totally by grace alone, through faith alone, by Christ alone. That is the gospel and there is no other gospel by which men can be saved.

I think it better that I drop out here.

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Too bad. You might have learned something valuable.

Doveaman said:

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

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So...What is your point? Why did you write all that? Is there a question? Are you posting all that and effectively asking, "Do you agree?"

Loren T. said:

You know what is funny. You will never find a calvinist who does not believe that he is among the elect.

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Interesting. Now, did you ever encounter a Free Willy who didn't believe that s/he was one of the elect, or who believe that a stroke of bad luck might cost them their salvation at the last minute? Me neither. In fact, I've never met any Christian who said they believed that they might chuck it all and become a heathen one day because, hey, Free Will. Strange, innit? I man, if it's all in our hands, seems like we'd be as likely to start out a Christian and end up a Hindu or a Cargo Cultist because it sounded like a better deal.

And yet, logic says if thier theology were correct, many would have to be among the nonelect.

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Howzat logic work? Are you of he opinion that God chooses randomly, and that having been chosen would have no particular effect on those chosen?

That's one thing that has always troubled me about Free Willies. They seem too believe that choosing the saved is too important a job to be left to God, because left to Him He'll do the choosing in an arbitrary and capricious manner. "So you think infants will go to hell, eh?", implying that if the choices are left to God, He'll chuck innocent babies into hell right and left. "So, you believe the saintly and benevolent will face eternal damnation, right?" Nope, can't say that I do. I think God deals justly with everyone. If you have evidence that He can't be trusted to do so, let me see it. Else I have to believe in God's justice more than I do the corrupted will, free or otherwise, of the average sinner to affect his own salvation. Y'all may believe that God can't be trusted to choose justly, I believe that He can and we cannot.

It's like hoping to win God's lottery.

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God just rolling the bones to see whether we're going to hell or heaven, right? Luck of the draw. Such wow.

Jipsah said:

Interesting. Now, did you ever encounter a Free Willy who didn't believe that s/he was one of the elect, or who believe that a stroke of bad luck might cost them their salvation at the last minute? Me neither. In fact, I've never met any Christian who said they believed that they might chuck it all and become a heathen one day because, hey, Free Will. Strange, innit? I man, if it's all in our hands, seems like we'd be as likely to start out a Christian and end up a Hindu or a Cargo Cultist because it sounded like a better deal.

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Of course, we have the option of chucking it and becoming a heathen. What else is blasphemy of the spirit but a Christian rejecting the One who saved him? That doesn't mean it's all in our hands. Our choice does not save us at all, but God is not forcing anyone to join him or to remain in the Vine.
The difference is, we don't believe we are elected unconditionally. Salvation is very conditional.

Jipsah said:

Howzat logic work? Are you of he opinion that God chooses randomly, and that having been chosen would have no particular effect on those chosen?

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Since I've never found any explanation by Calvinists as to how God choose, I have to assume it's random. do you have another explanation?

BNR32FAN said:

It doesn’t say we are made holy before the foundation of the world it says we were chosen to be holy before the foundation of the world. The choice happened before the foundation of the world. As far as am I Holy I don’t know. Hold on let me confess and ask forgiveness really quick....ok now I’m Holy

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Yes, it says we were chosen to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world, not chosen for heaven or hell. That is the plan. Does not say particular people were selected for Heaven. God wants people who want to be like Jesus and are prepared for that way of life. Does not say God wants Mary and Fred but not Stan and Fran.

If you do not know if you are holy, then you are not. Choosing holiness over sin is not something that happens without a struggle inside. I know you are lightening up the discussion but it was rather flippant on a matter that is the whole goal of God from the foundation of the world. It means doing the will of God, not saying some quick words to patch up the unholiness.

My question was to get you to realize that if we were chosen to be holy and blameless, then the "we" in the matter only applies to those who are. If you are going to insist it means us as individuals before we were born, then the measure is personal holiness and innocence of sin as to whether we are in that number. If I would say, God chose you to be able to sing his praises in perfect harmony and tone, then the "you" in the sentence ONLY applies to those who can do so. If one is not holy and blameless, then one cannot consider that this verse applies to one. No one is chosen for heaven or hell before the foundation of the world. We are chosen to be like Him. Who the "we" is depends upon us.

Loren T. said:

Since I've never found any explanation by Calvinists as to how God choose, I have to assume it's random. do you have another explanation?

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They generally say he is "sovereign" which means they have no idea and it appears to be arbitrary but since he has the power and can, he does for no good reason that anyone can give. Of course, they just use the word "sovereign" as it is a biblical word and nicely covers up the arbitrary unjustice of the god of Calvinism....until they think about it.

BNR32FAN said:

Actually I think they were written in the book of life before creation.

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:9‬

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4‬

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Yes I know that theology. It does not say that his purpose and grace means particular people were predestined to go to Heaven. Sorry but that verse does not say that. His purpose is that people learn to love Him and others as they love themselves. That was his purpose. He called us to that purpose, a purpose that was before the world was made. We were not called before the world was made. We were called at a point in our lifetimes but the purpose and grace was always there and always the same.

This is where you make a mistake. You insert "us" meaning you personally before the world was made and that is not what it says and does not fit in with the whole of the Bible. There is "the eyes of the Lord goes to and fro throughout the earth that they might find the one whose heart is completely his.." Why are the eyes of the Lord searching for particular people if they were chosen and known already before the foundation of the world.

Your view is not supported by scripture but only works if isolated verses are extracted from the context. He has chosen that people should be holy and blameless and you and I are among those who desire this. HE has not chosen you and I for heaven before the foundation of the world.

Bible2+ said:

We are, ultimately (Romans 2:6-8).

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OK, I will change my quote next time to only one guy, Bible2 who believes he/she is saved by works. The rest of us do not.

Not initially, for it's a miraculous gift (Ephesians 2:8).

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That verse does not say it is a miraculous gift initially and Jesus complained about people's lack of faith and was not complaining to God. Faith is our choice when presented with the evidence.

Exactly right (Romans 3:25).
Also, Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus is not only a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of His soul (Isaiah 53:11, KJV) was infinite in amount, even though it was not infinite in duration. And so His suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who are not God have finite souls, in order for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11, KJV) an infinite amount, when elect people repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

Note that the idea of salvation is mentioned in the discussion regarding election in Romans 9:11-24, for it refers to God's mercy (Romans 9:15-16) toward elect people, "unto glory" (Romans 9:23), which includes the glory of eternal life (Romans 8:17-25, Romans 2:6-7). And it refers to God's lack of mercy, and His wrath, toward nonelect people, "to destruction" (Romans 9:22), meaning that wrath which is opposed to salvation (Romans 2:5-8, Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9), the wrathful destruction (but not annihilation) which is eternal (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Mark 9:45b-46).

Also, other passages show that election (God's choosing) does determine salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), but only initial salvation (Acts 13:48b), not ultimate salvation. For ultimate salvation will depend on the continued obedience of Christians subsequent to their initial salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

Also, election is different than salvation in that elect people are elected (chosen) by God before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10). During their lifetime, elect people are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they are elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while elect people cannot become nonelect, after they become Christians they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).

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There is some thinking here that is mutually exclusive but I am pretty sure you are firmly entrenched in your position so I will just leave you to your views.

If anyone else is interested in understanding truth on these matters, I would counsel them to press into God Himself seeking Him for what they ought to believe about theology. Men make up very complex and intracontradictory theories requiring extracting isolated verses insisting they know exactly what God is doing without much evidence of knowing God Himself. Knowing God Himself is much better than knowing theology. And getting your theology from God Himself is infinately better than figuring out on your own answers. But it will not be journey one expects as God is likely to ask you "what is that to you, follow Me."

Dorothy Mae said in post #151:

So God first changes a man BEFORE that man makes a choice.

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Yes (John 1:13).

Dorothy Mae said in post #151:

This makes God cruel because He first changes some and not others for no reason.

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No, just as it would not be cruel for Him to change no sinner.

Instead, it is merciful for him to change some.

And the reason for not changing the others is given in Romans 9:22.

Dorothy Mae said in post #151:

Now I don’t believe God first changes a man so he can believe.

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He does, just as the nonelect have no way to believe (John 8:42-47).

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Dorothy Mae said in post #158:

[Re: Ephesians 2:8 and faith]

That verse does not say it is a miraculous gift initially . . .

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It does, for it's the same idea as John 6:65.

Dorothy Mae said in post #158:

Knowing God Himself is much better than knowing theology.

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It is Biblical theology that helps us to know if the God we think we know is truly YHWH God of the Bible, or some other God of our own liking.

Compare 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4.

Jipsah said in post #153:

I've never met any Christian who said they believed that they might chuck it all and become a heathen one day because, hey, Free Will.

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Note that Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).