Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

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I have read your posts.
None of the scriptures you present say that God will take His people to heaven.

I reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory for that reason and also for the prophesies that do tell us what God has planned for His people in the end times.
You don't like it because instead of strumming harps, we will all have to face trials and hardship; even unto death for some. This will reflect badly for you when you stand before Jesus in Judgement.
Revelation 13:9-10 is a clear statement that we must endure in out faith until the end. Obviously those who have been deceived by false teaching, do not have ears to hear!

Now, the problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture or not holding to a Rapture of any kind (With a reliance upon just a Second Coming or some other idea) is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

"If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says or worse yet, He is not coming at all.

For Matthew continues to say,

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you ignore His return that could happen at any moment or if you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.
 
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I have read your posts.
None of the scriptures you present say that God will take His people to heaven.

I reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory for that reason and also for the prophesies that do tell us what God has planned for His people in the end times.
You don't like it because instead of strumming harps, we will all have to face trials and hardship; even unto death for some. This will reflect badly for you when you stand before Jesus in Judgement.
Revelation 13:9-10 is a clear statement that we must endure in out faith until the end. Obviously those who have been deceived by false teaching, do not have ears to hear!

~ PLEASE DO NOT MISS THIS ~

Revelation 6:17 KJV begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 KJV tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.
 
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I have read your posts.
None of the scriptures you present say that God will take His people to heaven.

I reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory for that reason and also for the prophesies that do tell us what God has planned for His people in the end times.
You don't like it because instead of strumming harps, we will all have to face trials and hardship; even unto death for some. This will reflect badly for you when you stand before Jesus in Judgement.
Revelation 13:9-10 is a clear statement that we must endure in out faith until the end. Obviously those who have been deceived by false teaching, do not have ears to hear!

Revelation 13:9-10 is in reference to the Tribulation saint. Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 5:8 mentions how there are elders in Heaven. Note: These elders are in Heaven because the setting of our scene is the throne room in Heaven (Revelation 4:2). Their presence in Heaven shows us that they got there by the Rapture. We know that 12 out of the 24 elders are the 12 disciples.

For Jesus says,
"Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28).

Note: This would be Matthias and not Judas out of the 12 disciples (of course).

Anyways, in conclusion, the 24 elders presence before the Tribulation starts is proof that the church is already in Heaven (no doubt because of the Rapture).

For....

16 "....the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
 
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Douggg

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Revelation 13:9-10 is in reference to the Tribulation saint. Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 5:8 mentions how there are elders in Heaven. Note: These elders are in Heaven because the setting of our scene is the throne room in Heaven (Revelation 4:2). Their presence in Heaven shows us that they got there by the Rapture. We know that 12 out of the 24 elders are the 12 disciples.

For Jesus says,
"Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28).

Note: This would be Matthias and not Judas out of the 12 disciples (of course).

Anyways, in conclusion, the 24 elders presence before the Tribulation starts is proof that the church is already in Heaven (no doubt because of the Rapture).

For....

16 "....the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
Another day closer to the rapture to heaven. And another day closer to that day - the beginning years of the Day of the Lord - for them who deny it.

Whether asleep or alive, them in Christ looking for his coming will be raised from the dead if asleep or translated if alive.
 
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Seville90210

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Rapture after the resurrection of the righteous dead.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

On the Last Day

“Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:24)

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

Don't you bother to read the text thoroughly? John 5:28-29 is not the rapture! Content is everything. Read what it said at the end of John 5:29.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

At the rapture, only those in Christ gets resurrected. The wicked doesn't get resurrected.

At the rapture, all those resurrected go to be with Jesus, not into damnation.
 
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Seville90210

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Walvoord and Lahaye both admitted in print they have zero scripture to support the any of the tribulation rapture views.

I doubt it. In Walvoord's book he gave 50 reasons for a Pre Tribulation rapture with numerous scriptures to support his claim. You be a lot more creditable if you can produce links as confirmation otherwise just admit you have zero evidence to support any of your argument.

And both don't support just any rapture view, they only promote the Pre Tribulation rapture.
 
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keras

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Revelation 6:17 KJV begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 KJV tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.
Is that so? Wrath, testing, chastisement, discipline and correction, are all our lot as true children of God. Explain 1 Peter 4:12, Hebrews 12:5-13

You make no attempt to find our what God actually does want from His people. Why take them to heaven? He has angels to serve Him there.
No; our task is to do what Jesus has already asked of us, to spread the Gospel and live a good Christian life as His Light to the peoples.

The belief in a rapture will result in a terrible disappointment for those who expected it.
What is prophesied to happen soon, will be such a catastrophic disaster, that those surprised and unprepared for it, will make it that much more difficult for them.
 
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Douggg

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I doubt it. In Walvoord's book he gave 50 reasons for a Pre Tribulation rapture with numerous scriptures to support his claim. You be a lot more creditable if you can produce links as confirmation otherwise just admit you have zero evidence to support any of your argument.

And both don't support just any rapture view, they only promote the Pre Tribulation rapture.
There are always going to be people who say there is not going to be the rapture, right up till it happens. Just let them stay they way they want. One of the truism I have found after almost 70 years in this world - you can't help (most) people. If people want to be ignorant, then let them be ignorant.

Can them who believe in the rapture - can they be the scoffers, where is the promise of his coming, is it possible for them to be the scoffers? No, it is not possible.
 
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Seville90210

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They are not believers who are born again who say that to Christ. Christ says He never knew them, and they did evil works. Christ knows those who are His, and everyone who is His departs from doing evil and does good, the immediate prior scripture, is the teaching about the good and evil tree (people) and before that the narrow way into heaven, which is only for those born of God. Those are the people He knows.

There's no such thing as a born again unbeliever. You have to be a believer first before becoming born again. What you're saying is no different than someone can be born again without having heard the gospel of Christ or the name of Jesus.

Your second theory is wrong too. Jesus said He never knew them because God/Jesus will not have a relationship with anyone who will deliberately continue to sin.

Matthew 7:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

When He said I don't know you, it means we don't have a relationship. Jesus knows everything about us, even the number of hair on our head. You really think Jesus doesn't know each of us, what we think and whats in our hearts?


AND, Christ is saying 'ON THAT DAY', so we know this is the Day of judgement. And yes EVERYONE will bow the knee and confess Jesus Christ as LORD to the glory of God the Father. That means non christians...will say to Him Lord, Lord... on the DAY. Right from your own reference it says this clearly!

Matthew 7:22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord!

People will say to Christ many things that are not true on the Day of Judgement, including trying to excuse themselves to Him what they did, just like ADAM tells God, 'the women you gave me' refusing to bear their own guilt right in front of Him.

Many false religions consider Christ a great teacher and prophet and could claim they did things in His name. But they of course are lying. Judgement day is judgement day, no one is excluded from this judgement EXCEPT Christians born of God. They are not going to come under this judgement!
I dont know how you came up with this stuff, except that you must to support your odd strange teaching here.

What a hopeless attempt at fabricating scripture!

First off, the words Judgment Day is a poor translation and only found in two translation, all others uses the words "that day."

https://biblehub.com/matthew/7-22.htm

That day in Matthew 7:22 is actually referring to the day of the rapture, not the second coming, there's a difference. At the rapture, nobody gets punished. Those in Christ gets taken to be with Jesus while the left over gets left behind.

At the second coming, many people including professing Christians will get punished and die. Revelation chapters 2-3. Two different conclusions.

What did Jesus do with those in Matthew 7? Did He punish and kill them? No! He told them He never knew them and depart from Him.

This is the rapture and those in Matthew 7 got left behind.

Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What else were these people doing before that day came? They were prophesying and casting out demons in His name. These are not unbelievers that just appeared before on Judgment day and decided to call Him lord. These are professing Christians that willfully continue to sin as mentioned in Revelation chapters 2-3.

Again, only Christians call Jesus their Lord. Nobody else calls Jesus lord, not atheists, not Muslims, not Buddhist, etc.



John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Off the mark again. That's not the rapture. This was already fulfilled at the first coming. The resurrection Jesus spoke about on the last day happened when Christ died at the cross. Now when Jesus said I will raise them up on the last day, who's last day do you think He was talking about? Go read Matthew 27.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life,
and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.


https://biblehub.com/john/5-25.htm

New International Version
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

New Living Translation
"And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it's here now, when the dead will hear my voice--the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.

English Standard Version
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Berean Study Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Berean Literal Bible
Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard will live.

New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Christian Standard Bible
"Truly I tell you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Contemporary English Version
I tell you for certain the time will come, and it is already here, when all of the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen to it will live!

Good News Translation
I am telling you the truth: the time is coming--the time has already come--when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"I assure you: An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

International Standard Version
Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, the time approaches, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

NET Bible
I tell you the solemn truth, a time is coming--and is now here--when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

New Heart English Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Timeless truth I speak to you: The hour is coming, it is even now, when the dead shall hear the voice of The Son of God, and they who hear shall live.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"I can guarantee this truth: A time is coming (and is now here) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who respond to it will live.

New American Standard 1977
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour shall come, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

King James 2000 Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

American King James Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

American Standard Version
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.

Darby Bible Translation
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live.

English Revised Version
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.

Webster's Bible Translation
Verily, verily, I say to you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth I tell you that a time is coming--nay, has already come--when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

World English Bible
Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.

Young's Literal Translation
'Verily, verily, I say to you -- There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;

Matthew 27:45-53 New King James Version (NKJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, “This Man is calling for Elijah!” 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.

49 The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.[/quote]
 
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Seville90210

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They wrote a work of fiction, passing it off as truth and doctrine, made lots of money and perpetuate false doctrines, oppose the scripture and God. A bad place to find oneself, dangerous ground when someone begins to teach and it is a lie. I used to believe it too, until I comprehended the scriptures, which comprehension I have is only because of the mercy of God, I was able to escape.

Yeah and those books and movies LaHaye and Walvoord made produced millions or billions of dollars from Christians and nonbelievers worldwide. Everywhere you look at the box office are movies about the Pre Tribulation rapture and left behind, but nothing about a post tribulation rapture. When was the last time you went to the threater to watch a post tribulation rapture movie. Zero?

Wanna know why? Because they know nobody would go watch it. They won't make one. It be a bust. Otherwise there be one out by now. It's also a known fact that many Christians who saw the left behind movies are also post tribbers. You guys proclaim you hate it but secretly watched it. Don't deny it, we know you saw some of them in the theaters or on Youtube on your laptop.
 
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Seville90210

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There are always going to be people who say there is not going to be the rapture, right up till it happens. Just let them stay they way they want. One of the truism I have found after almost 70 years in this world - you can't help (most) people. If people want to be ignorant, then let them be ignorant.

Can them who believe in the rapture - can they be the scoffers, where is the promise of his coming, is it possible for them to be the scoffers? No, it is not possible.

Yeah I agree with you Douggg, I know they won't listen or promote what the bible actually say and there's much better things for me to do with the few remaining days we have till Christ begins the rapture and Daniel's 70th week commences.

I'm really here for another purpose. Hopefully those new to Christianity on this site who are vulnerable and an easy prey can take the things I post against those promoting replacement theology, line it up with scriptures and let them decide what's biblical and true.
 
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Seville90210

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Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

Yeah too bad there's no post trib version of a Tim LaHaye who can make movie about a post trib rapture because once that happens the movie will flop on the first day when Christians like me will posts scriptures like this that can actually refute the existence of a post trib rapture.

In Revelation 19:11-15, you see the second coming as Christ descends from heaven upon the earth.

But before Christ leaves heaven, from verses 6-10, you see the marriage supper of the Lamb as Christ marries the Church before He leaves heaven.

Now how do you get a post trib rapture when the Church is already seen up in heaven before Jesus comes down to earth?

Revelation 19:6-15 King James Version (KJV)
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 
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Seville90210

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There are always going to be people who say there is not going to be the rapture, right up till it happens. Just let them stay they way they want. One of the truism I have found after almost 70 years in this world - you can't help (most) people. If people want to be ignorant, then let them be ignorant.

Can them who believe in the rapture - can they be the scoffers, where is the promise of his coming, is it possible for them to be the scoffers? No, it is not possible.

Hey Douggg, I got a question for you if you don't mind. How do you PM another person?
 
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BABerean2

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Now how do you get a post trib rapture when the Church is already seen up in heaven before Jesus comes down to earth?

It is very simple. The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

We know this because we have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and it is also found at the end of chapter 20.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the New Covenant Church cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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BABerean2

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Where have I said God made a separate covenant with the Jewish people. I never said that.........and you know it. You personally would not be saved by this covenant until you accept Jesus as the Messiah, the son of God, whose blood covers the sin of those who believe. It is the same covenant that the Jewish people have. They just haven't accepted Jesus as their Messiah. There will come a time that many of the twelve tribes will accept Jesus as their savior. It will start with the 144000 first fruits. That will occur after the fullness Gentiles comes in,.....pretribulation rapture. (Please don't waste your time posting the times of the Gentiles scriptures that you use to twist scripture and attempt to fool the babes) How can you do these things knowingly....do you not fear Him who sees all? Do you know who you are? Are you good with twisting the truth? That doesn't bother you? You should check your clothes. I already have.
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And the name of that covenant made with about 3,000 Jews on the Day of Pentecost, is the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Can you bring yourself to say the words "New Covenant"?

If you acknowledge its fulfillment by Christ at Calvary, you will have killed the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

The New Covenant proves there is only one people of God, instead of Two Peoples of God, as your doctrine claims.

In Galatians 3:16, the Apostle Paul reveals that Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.
Therefore, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham.

In Matthew chapter 21 Christ reveals that the "son" is the "heir" to the land, instead of those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

The doctrine that you are promoting fails to acknowledge the New Covenant and its implications.
Why? Because the New Covenant kills modern Dispensational Theology and its Two Peoples of God doctrine, which you continue to promote.

The originators of your doctrine claimed that God would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system, during the seven year period before the Second Coming of Christ. This claim is by definition a form of "Dual Covenant" Theology. Their problem is the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.


They also claimed the "Age of Grace" would come to an end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ.

Their problem is the fact that the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Look below at some of the claims made by those promoting your doctrine.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”


John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


Are you going to tell us that the claims made above are not a form of "Dual Covenant" Theology?

...........................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.
 
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Dave L

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I doubt it. In Walvoord's book he gave 50 reasons for a Pre Tribulation rapture with numerous scriptures to support his claim. You be a lot more creditable if you can produce links as confirmation otherwise just admit you have zero evidence to support any of your argument.

And both don't support just any rapture view, they only promote the Pre Tribulation rapture.
I provided direct quotes from both Walvoord and Lahay. Both remained pre-trib rapture advocates even though both admitted scripture does not directly support it.
 
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Dave L

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Don't you bother to read the text thoroughly? John 5:28-29 is not the rapture! Content is everything. Read what it said at the end of John 5:29.

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

At the rapture, only those in Christ gets resurrected. The wicked doesn't get resurrected.

At the rapture, all those resurrected go to be with Jesus, not into damnation.
When Jesus returns the universe passes away with fire. This happens after the resurrection of the dead and the rapture.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” (2 Peter 3:12)

“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV
 
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Choose Wisely

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................................................................................



And the name of that covenant made with about 3,000 Jews on the Day of Pentecost, is the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Can you bring yourself to say the words "New Covenant"?

If you acknowledge its fulfillment by Christ at Calvary, you will have killed the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

The New Covenant proves there is only one people of God, instead of Two Peoples of God, as your doctrine claims.

In Galatians 3:16, the Apostle Paul reveals that Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.
Therefore, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham.

In Matthew chapter 21 Christ reveals that the "son" is the "heir" to the land, instead of those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".

The doctrine that you are promoting fails to acknowledge the New Covenant and its implications.
Why? Because the New Covenant kills modern Dispensational Theology and its Two Peoples of God doctrine, which you continue to promote.

The originators of your doctrine claimed that God would go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system, during the seven year period before the Second Coming of Christ. This claim is by definition a form of "Dual Covenant" Theology. Their problem is the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.


They also claimed the "Age of Grace" would come to an end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ.

Their problem is the fact that the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Look below at some of the claims made by those promoting your doctrine.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”


Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”


John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


Are you going to tell us that the claims made above are not a form of "Dual Covenant" Theology?

...........................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.
Who is us? I'm telling you that salvation comes by grace through faith........and only through faith in Jesus Christ. All the games you play trying to confuse people will not change these facts.
 
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BABerean2

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Who is us? I'm telling you that salvation comes by grace through faith........and only through faith in Jesus Christ. All the games you play trying to confuse people will not change these facts.

I have already seen it.

This man is promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

He is replacing the one seed, with the many seeds on Galatians 3:16.


.
 
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It is very simple. The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

We know this because we have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

You mean it's simple for you to make the bible say what you want it say but you can't make Revelation chapter 19 go backward. The verses in Chapter 19 are in chronological order and completely refutes a post trib rapture.

The Church is in heaven partaking in the marriage supper before Christ descends to earth. No post trib rapture possible here.

Revelation 19:7-14 King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
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