GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

LoveGodsWord

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No, we have not been shown any Scripture that says the vision of Daniel 8 starts when the vision of Daniel 9 does because there is no text that says that. Daniel 8's vision was already explained, and true, and sealed up.
It as not interrupted as Ellen White claims.

I see so in your view there is no parallels in the chapter of Daniel and the visions he received in Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12? I have already provided many scriptures parallels showing 2, 7 and 8 in relation to the world empires, God's judgment and the restoration of God's truth and the cleansing of the Sanctuary. * Now 8 and 9 we can see also very clearly see parallels in the times that are set within these chapter and application of these times beginning at the rebuilding of Jerusalem in Ezra 7:1-26, to the baptism of Jesus, his crucifixion, the gospel going to the Gentiles.... Hmm fits pretty nicely with Daniel 9:24-27, dont you think?

Sorry tall it seems we do not believe the same. You have lost sight of the parallels within the chapters of Daniel that describe the visions from different perspectives.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is up to you to point out where God said not to sacrifice children to him before the law was given to Moses. We agreed Abraham knew that murder was wrong. Murdering someone out of hate, etc. is not the same as sacrificing children to God. It is up to you to show that God had already commanded not to. That is your claim--back it up.

Why do you feel I need to? Didn't you just agree with me after you were provided scriptures on Cain's punishment for murder? Or is it your view that Abraham thought it was ok to offer children as a sin offereing to God? I am happy with the scriptures I have provided about murder and Cains punishment as well as the other scriptures that describe Abrahams relationship with God

GENESIS 26:5 [5], Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws [Torah].

Now tall you are the one claiming that Abraham believed in sacrificing children as a sin offering. Isn't up to you to prove it with scripture?

No, my application is that Ellen White condemned those who rightly rejected Miller's date setting. And they rejected it because it was tied to the second coming. That was why they rejected it. So saying, well it was true except for the part that wasn't--the part they actually rejected--but they deserved to be judged for correctly applying the Scriptures, does not make sense.

Not at all my friend. Your view seems to be that if the application was wrong by the Millerites all the prophetic time line is also wrong. So therefore throw it all away. An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth.

The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct.

The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not correct.

God revealed the correct application of this message to the Feast of Trumpets and the Christs ministration in the heavenly Sanctuary in his appointed time. Those that rejected this message and turned away from God's Word it was written...

"And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.


Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith.

These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ; but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision--those who declared the light which they had followed a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God.

No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection." Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 63-64.

As shown all through this thread already, all your doing my friend is taking EGW statements out of context to make them say something they are not and refuse to duscuss the scriptures. This is exactly the same thing you are doing in your other thread you have made for EGW. This is sad for you.

Did you want to talk scripture now?

Hope this helps.
 
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tall73

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All sounds a bit different when you add the context now doesn't it? It is not what you are promoting

Hope this helps.

No, it does not sound different at all. She still indicates that those who rejected the message in 1844 are toast.

It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them

The shut door, she says, applied to those who rejected the "light" when it was presented to them, before Oct. 22, 1844.

That "light" was Miller's false date-setting message. They rejected it because it went against the Scriptures.

So no, it does not give a much different view. And it confirms what she said in Early Writings:

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven and to persecute William Miller and those who united with him in the work. Early Writings, Page 233-234.

So she says those who actually followed Jesus' words and rejected date setting for His coming were the ones who didn't love Jesus. But the ones who disregarded Jesus words were the ones who did love Jesus.


She may as well say up is down, and left is right. It is ridiculous. They were right to reject Miller's date setting.

And she quotes the people as saying, "no man knows the day or hour." And then she indicates they were just saying the year. But of course, she knows full well they did eventually settle on a specific day, and she still went along with the movement, in complete rejection of Jesus' words.

But beyond that, they didn't just reference that one text, and the way they referenced that one text was more nuanced than Ellen White allowed.

Let's look at what some of the ministers said:

From Pastor Dowling's conclusion:

I have frequently been asked if I believe Mr. Miller to be sincere. I have invariably answered in the affirmative. I cannot but suppose that Mr. M. is a pious, well-meaning man. I would advise him, in conclusion, if he would escape the distress I know it would cause him in his old age to have been unintentionally instrumental in the spread of infidelity, to go home and preach Christ crucified to perishing sinners, which I have no doubt he is qualified to do, and to waste no more of a life which might be valuable if rightly spent, in vainly attempting to make known those times and seasons which God hath wisely concealed from the ken of mortals, and "put into His own power."


He makes reference to Acts 1:7
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

And it can also have reference to I Thessalonians 5:

in vainly attempting to make known those times and seasons

I Thess. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This text shows the futility of trying to predict times and seasons for Jesus' coming. They were right to reject Miller's date setting.

And here from the Unnamed person who wrote , "Miller Overthrown"

Whether he has been first himself deceived, or whether he is wittingly practising a pious fraud, is known to the Searcher of hearts. I have but to point out sundry errors and weak places in his book; sufficient, however to destroy his credibility, but not to prove that the end of the word is distant; for "of that day knoweth no man"; and we are told that it is even hidden from the angels. If a man were to prophesy that, on a certain day during the next year, Washington city would be destroyed by an earthquake, who could positively declare the contrary? I pretend not to know that the world will survive the year 1843; but I think that Mr. William Miller knows as little about it as I do.

The Almighty has wisely hidden that day from us. Let the man who would rashly essay to raise the veil, ponder well upon the responsibility he assumes.

If Miller's calculations are correct, it is very evident that he is wiser than the angels, the prophets, the apostles, and the saints. It was an angel who was commanded to make Daniel understand the vision. Now, if that angel showed the prophet that the world would be destroyed in 2300 years, then is it not true, as Christ declared, that "of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
We are also informed that, "In such an hour as you think not, the Son of man cometh;" which will not be the case with the Millerites, if his prediction shall be fulfilled.


Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Miller's claim was that Daniel 8 predicated the second coming of Jesus and the destruction of the world. But if the angels did not know at the time of Jesus' words, how could the angel have told Daniel?

Yet this did not bother Ellen White or William Miller.

The author also points out that Jesus said He would come at an hour you think not.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


But that didn't bother them.

They had to totally ignore the statements on date setting in order to give their message. And then when they settled on Oct. 22, 1844--a specific day--it still didn't both them. They ignored the words of Jesus even then.

Miller's message that Jesus was coming in 1843 was false. His message contradicted Scripture. It was not a fulfillment of prophecy, and God did not condemn those who rightly listened to His word and rejected date setting.





 
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tall73

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Well maybe it is not clear to you. For me it is very clear and starts from the scriptures applied in Daniel 9:24-27.

DANIEL 8:14 [14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

DANIEL 9:24-27 [24], Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.[25], Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. [26], And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [27], And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem is found in Ezra 7:1-26 was 457 BC. This is the only date that fits all the prophecy descriptions.



Now tall, why do you think that God only reveals his truth to commentators? If that were the case the whole world would be saved. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God and higher then the heavens. It can only be received as a gift.

It was sinners, fisherman and taxcollectors that became the Apostles of God in the days of Jesus and not the commentators of the day that wore long robes to be seen of men.



Not at all we already have shown earlier through the scriptures that Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 are discussing parallels of each other in relation to different aspects of the vision that Daniel received.

The time lines fit very well to the requirements of the vision don't you think?

slide_3.jpg


The timelines of Daniel 9 fit fine with the prophecy in Daniel 9.

The only thing marking the timeline you have hacked onto Daniel 9 is a false message and non-fulfillment by Miller. So no, they do not fit well.

And you keep saying "parallels". Yes there are parallels for several chapters. A parallel does not mean "I get to start one prophecy at the point of another because I feel like it" The vision in 8 does not start at the same time as 7. Seven included Babylon, 8 did not.

Chapter nine dealt with the 70 weeks.

But you did not show anything stating that the 2,300 days start at the same time. No Scripture said that.

You put the verse from 8, then pasted below it the other, and said they fit. But there was nothing saying they fit.
 
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tall73

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If you disagree by all means let's see you explain it?


No, it is your assertion that the time period in 8 starts at the same time as 9, it is up to you to point out the Scripture that says it. You have pointed to none, because none exist.

Daniel 8's vision was already said to be true, and sealed up. And unlike Ellen White's account, there is no indication the angel had to leave early due to Daniel's weakness.
 
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tall73

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Now tall, why do you think that God only reveals his truth to commentators? If that were the case the whole world would be saved. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God and higher then the heavens. It can only be received as a gift.

In this context everyone commenting on it is a commentator, learned or not.

And you have provided no text that says what you say it means. So you can just claim anything and if someone says it is wrong say "well you are not heavenly, only us simple folks see it".

The problem is, there is no text there. When you say it is obvious, that has a meaning. It is not obvious. It is not even present.
 
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tall73

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Now 8 and 9 we can see also very clearly see parallels in the times that are set within these chapter and application of these times beginning at the rebuilding of Jerusalem in Ezra 7:1-26, to the baptism of Jesus, his crucifixion, the gospel going to the Gentiles.... Hmm fits pretty nicely with Daniel 9:24-27, dont you think?

You mean the vision of chapter 9 fits very well with the vision of chapter 9? Sure! That has nothing to do with 8.

Sorry tall it seems we do not believe the same. You have lost sight of the parallels within the chapters of Daniel that describe the visions from different perspectives.

Sorry that you cannot find a scripture that says the 2,300 days starts at the same time as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.
 
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tall73

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Why do you feel I need to? Didn't you just agree with me after you were provided scriptures on Cain's punishment for murder? Or is it your view that Abraham thought it was ok to offer children as a sin offereing to God?

He obviously thought it was OK or he would not have set out to do it.

You are saying he knew it was wrong--that is up to you to prove. And no, murdering someone in anger is not the same as a sacrifice to God. Sacrificing a human to God is wrong, but there is no indication that Abraham knew that. And you have shown not text that says it.

Your whole point is God commanded Abraham to do something Abraham knew was wrong. But you have presented no evidence on that point. Show the evidence, or you have no argument.

On the other hand, there is abundant evidence that Miller was aware of the warnings against date setting, and so was Ellen White. They totally disregarded them, eventually even setting a specific day.



Now tall you are the one claiming that Abraham believed in sacrificing children as a sin offering. Isn't up to you to prove it with scripture?
It is easily proved as he goes to do it as soon as he was told! He made no objections at all, or gave any indication he was aware of a law against it.
 
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tall73

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Now it is obvious to anyone that the message that Jesus was coming Oct. 22, 1844, disregarded the words of Jesus:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Or at least, it was obvious to everyone except Ellen White, and the rest of the Millerites who settled on that specific date.


The people were right to reject Miller's false, date-setting message. The Millerites went against the clear words of Christ.
 
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tall73

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Here is Ellen White, Early Writings, page 238, 239

She is relating the closing work leading up to Oct. 22, 1844.

The saints anxiously waited for their Lord with fasting, watching, and almost constant prayer. Even some sinners looked forward to the time with terror; but the great mass manifested the spirit of Satan in their opposition to the message. They mocked and scoffed, repeating everywhere, "No man knoweth the day nor the hour." Evil angels urged them on to harden their hearts and to reject every ray of light from heaven, that they might be fastened in the snare of Satan. Many who professed to be looking for Christ had no part in the work of the message.

By this point they had settled on the day of Oct. 22, 1844. What kind of mental dissonance quotes the correct message "No man knoweth the day nor the hour" and then blames those who gave it? Of course they heard this everywhere repeated! They were preaching the day of Jesus' return, and the text correctly rebuked their false, date-setting message about Jesus' return!


But she says they rejected heavenly light, by rejecting the prediction of Jesus coming on a specific day!

She continues to say up is down, left is right, and you continue to agree with that.


 
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LoveGodsWord

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The timelines of Daniel 9 fit fine with the prophecy in Daniel 9.
Thankyou we are in agreement then.
The only thing marking the timeline you have hacked onto Daniel 9 is a false message and non-fulfillment by Miller. So no, they do not fit well. And you keep saying "parallels". Yes there are parallels for several chapters. A parallel does not mean "I get to start one prophecy at the point of another because I feel like it" The vision in 8 does not start at the same time as 7. Seven included Babylon, 8 did not.
Well that is not true my friend you have been shown the parallels of the vision and how the different chapters in Daniel in Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 are discussing the same vision from a different aspect with some interpretation given by the Angel sent to help Daniel.

Many parallel scriptures have already been provided in this thread showing Daniel chapters 2, 7 and 8 are in relation to the world empires, God's judgment and the restoration of God's truth and the cleansing of the Sanctuary. * Now in Dan 8 and 9 we can see also very clearly see parallels in the times that are set within these chapter and application of these times beginning at the rebuilding of Jerusalem 9v24-25 which is found in Ezra 7:1-26, to the baptism of Jesus, his crucifixion, the gospel going to the Gentiles.... Hmm fits pretty nicely with dont you think?

It seems that you have lost sight of the parallels chapter applications within Daniel that describe the visions from different perspectives.
Chapter nine dealt with the 70 weeks. But you did not show anything stating that the 2,300 days start at the same time. No Scripture said that. You put the verse from 8, then pasted below it the other, and said they fit. But there was nothing saying they fit.

Not at all my friend. Daniel 9 gives us a reference for starting of the 2300 day/year prophecy which is first outlined in the previous chapter in 8:14. This is the continuation of the same timeline thoughts explained in the previous chapter that give us the starting point for the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 in Daniel 9:24-25.

DANIEL 9:24-25 [24], Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.[25], Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.

This decree is established in Ezra 7:1-27.

Yep seems like a clear starting date to me.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, it is your assertion that the time period in 8 starts at the same time as 9, it is up to you to point out the Scripture that says it. You have pointed to none, because none exist.

Daniel 8's vision was already said to be true, and sealed up. And unlike Ellen White's account, there is no indication the angel had to leave early due to Daniel's weakness.

I see, so you have no explanation to offer simply just to disagree. Yet the timeline of the 2300 year/day prophecy lines up perfectly as witnessed through historical events. The scripture only says that the book was sealed up in Daniels day not forever...

DANIEL 12:4[4], But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The description here of the time of the end pretty good desciption of the 17th and 18th centuary don't you think?

* Transportation (men running to and fro)
* Industrial revolution.

Yep timing seems pretty good for the unsealing of the books for the time of the end.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In this context everyone commenting on it is a commentator, learned or not.
I see so you were not trying to say the commentators or scholars have it right.
And you have provided no text that says what you say it means. So you can just claim anything and if someone says it is wrong say "well you are not heavenly, only us simple folks see it".

Well that is not true. You have been provided with a lot of scripture that says what it means. You are free to believe as you wish. You only answer to God come judgment day not me.
The problem is, there is no text there. When you say it is obvious, that has a meaning. It is not obvious. It is not even present.
Funny how to you it is not present and to me I can see it very clearly through the scriptures linking scripture and witnessed through history.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You mean the vision of chapter 9 fits very well with the vision of chapter 9? Sure! That has nothing to do with 8.
This is true in your view. Not in mine you have lost sight of the parallel explanations between the chapters of the same vision.
Sorry that you cannot find a scripture that says the 2,300 days starts at the same time as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.
Not at all my friend. Daniel 9 gives us a reference for starting of the 2300 day/year prophecy which is first outlined in the previous chapter in 8:14. This is the continuation of the same timeline thoughts explained in the previous chapter that give us the starting point for the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 in Daniel 9:24-25.

DANIEL 9:24-25 [24], Seventy weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.[25], Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.

This decree is established in Ezra 7:1-27.

Sorry you can no longer see it. Although it is true you once did.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Now Ellen White condemns those of her day saying they did not love Jesus' coming. Of course she must say that, because they are completely correct on the Scriptural question. They were correct to reject Miller's date setting on the second coming. And the event did not come to pass.
This is where your problem lies my friend. There was a lot of scripture linked to the Daniel 8:14 message. The application to the 2nd coming taking place at the end of this period was not correct. Your view is that because there was no 2nd coming then all the scriptures provided with this prophetic time line are not correct either.

An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were indeed correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not. In your view therefore you throw it all away. This is your mistake and the mistake of many that rejected God's WORD that was latter revealed in God's appointed time.
She bought into Miller's date-setting message about Jesus' coming. Had they actually followed Jesus they would have not have given the message.
So I guess with that line of thinking all the disciples were not following Jesus either because in their view his coming the first time was as a conqouring king to deliver all ISRAEL from the Roman empire. In both cases God revealed his true work and the correct application of the scriptures in his appointed time.
Notice that she references what the ministers said:

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. "No man knoweth the day nor the hour," was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time.


So she says those who actually followed Jesus' words and rejected date setting for His coming were the ones who didn't love Jesus. But the ones who disregarded Jesus words were the ones who did love Jesus.
Funny how you highlight those few sections within the EGW quote your using and ignore the rest of what you posted here...

"God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace. Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them."

I think I would agree with your statement and your interpretation of the quote in bold below...
So she says those who actually followed Jesus' words and rejected date setting for His coming were the ones who didn't love Jesus. But the ones who disregarded Jesus words were the ones who did love Jesus
If I did not believe the rest of the quote which says God's all seeing eye read their hearts and their true motives for their actions that you glossed over.

She may as well say up is down, and left is right. It is ridiculous. They were right to reject Miller's date setting.
Indeed the Milleraites had an incorrect application of the Prophetic time period to the 2nd coming. Where they wrong to also reject the Prophetic time period? An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth.


The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were indeed correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not. In your view therefore you throw it all away. This is your mistake and the mistake of many that rejected God's WORD in relation to the prophetic time line that was latter revealed latter in God's appointed time.
And she quotes the people as saying, "no man knows the day or hour." And then she indicates they were just saying the year. But of course, she knows full well they did eventually settle on a specific day, and she still went along with the movement, in complete rejection of Jesus' words.
Well hang on here partner you know full well that this was a reference to 1843 not 1844. It is your application of the EGW quotes and context you apply to them that is the problem not the quotes themselves. Keeping in mind that God revealed his truth in his appointed time.

Let's look at what some of the ministers said: From Pastor Dowling's conclusion:
Not sure why you believe the writings of other men help your case.


Did you have any scripture to share?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You are saying he knew it was wrong--that is up to you to prove. And no, murdering someone in anger is not the same as a sacrifice to God. Sacrificing a human to God is wrong, but there is no indication that Abraham knew that. And you have shown not text that says it. Your whole point is God commanded Abraham to do something Abraham knew was wrong. But you have presented no evidence on that point. Show the evidence, or you have no argument.

You left this out of your post...

GENESIS 26:5 [5], Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws [torah].

Yep seems like Abraham knew God's law pretty well. Funny how you leave this out of your post.

On the other hand, there is abundant evidence that Miller was aware of the warnings against date setting, and so was Ellen White. They totally disregarded them, eventually even setting a specific day.

Now tall you know for a fact that EGW did not even have her first vision until after 1844. We already agree the Millerite application of the prophetic time period was not correct to the 2nd coming. A Warning message was given to the world however of the 2nd coming. This fits very nicely with the warning given in 1833 to 1843 that fulfills the Feast of Trumpets before the great day of atonement. So in some ways the warning of the 2nd coming was a correct message. The application from the Millerites to the actual 2nd coming however as we both agree was not correct.

I think the example provided earlier to you in Luke showing that even the disciples of Jesus did not know the reason for his coming. They all believed that he was coming as a conqouring king to deliver ISRAEL from the Romans.

Speaking of his death...

LUKE 24:21 [21], But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Like the Millerites, their interpretation of the scriptures was not a correct one that is why they were dissappointed at his death. Jesus was a king and his sitting on an ass as a king was in fulfillment of the prophecy in

Zechariah 9:9, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, your King comes unto you: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon a donkey, and upon a colt the foal of a donkey.

This is despite the disciples having a wrong application to scriptures.

Jesus was coming as the worlds sacrifice and King of salvation of mankind from Sin and his sitting on the donkey was in fulfillment of prophecy.

The disciples believed he was coming for a different purpose to deliver Israel from the Roman's as a conqouring king, so their message and understanding was a false one and was not a correct message from their viewpoint hence the great dissappointment at his death.

From God's viewpoint it was a correct message as Jeusus was a king however the disciples interpreted the scriptures incorrectly thinking Jesus was to come as the conqourer and at the death of Jesus they were greatly dissappointed.

This is like the Millerite message in that the prophetic time period was correct. The message give from 1833 to 1843 was in fulfillment of prophecy in relation to the Feast of trumpets. A world-wide message of warning for the 2nd coming and a warning for all mankind to get ready.

Unfortunaltely the application (interpretation) to the 2nd coming was not correct linked to the prophetic time period. This eventually resulted in the great dissappointment of the Milerite movement in 1844.

At God's appointed time this resulted in the re-examining of the scriptures which lead to the correct application of the scriptures for the faithful remaining few who kept on seaching the scriptures for both the disciples of Christ in his day and those faithful after the Millerite movement.

It was seen through the scriptures that the prophetic time period of Daniel 8 was in reference to the investigative judgment and the great day of atonement in the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

There are some interesting parallels to Luke and God's disciples here. Christs work in both cases resulted from an incorrect understanding of the scriptures which was latter corrected in God's appointed time as to the true work of Christ coming as the Messiah and King of salvation to the disciples of Christ in his day, and the correct application of the 2300 year day prophecy to the ministration of Jesus on our behalf in the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Now it is obvious to anyone that the message that Jesus was coming Oct. 22, 1844, disregarded the words of Jesus:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Or at least, it was obvious to everyone except Ellen White, and the rest of the Millerites who settled on that specific date.

The people were right to reject Miller's false, date-setting message. The Millerites went against the clear words of Christ.

Your just repeating yourself now. We are already in agreement that the application of the prophetic time period to the 2nd coming by the Millerites was not correct.

The prophetic time line however was correct. Your view seems to be that if the application was wrong by the Millerites all the prophetic time line is also wrong. So therefore throw it all away.

An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not.

This was latter revealed in God's appointed time, similar to the disciples of Christ who had an incorrect understanding of the purpose and work of Jesus as the KING of salvation and not the conqouring King applied to the 2nd coming.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Here is Ellen White, Early Writings, page 238, 239

She is relating the closing work leading up to Oct. 22, 1844.

The saints anxiously waited for their Lord with fasting, watching, and almost constant prayer. Even some sinners looked forward to the time with terror; but the great mass manifested the spirit of Satan in their opposition to the message. They mocked and scoffed, repeating everywhere, "No man knoweth the day nor the hour." Evil angels urged them on to harden their hearts and to reject every ray of light from heaven, that they might be fastened in the snare of Satan. Many who professed to be looking for Christ had no part in the work of the message.

By this point they had settled on the day of Oct. 22, 1844. What kind of mental dissonance quotes the correct message "No man knoweth the day nor the hour" and then blames those who gave it? Of course they heard this everywhere repeated! They were preaching the day of Jesus' return, and the text correctly rebuked their false, date-setting message about Jesus' return!


But she says they rejected heavenly light, by rejecting the prediction of Jesus coming on a specific day!

She continues to say up is down, left is right, and you continue to agree with that.

Now tall, can someone have a correct message but a wrong interpretation of that message? We have already looked at the disciples of Christ and there interpretation of the scriptures and the role of Jesus as king. Christ's disciples thought he was coming the first time as a conqouring king to deleiver ISRAEL from the Roman empire. The mixed up the first coming with the 2nd coming. Their interpretation of the scriptures were made plain latter in God's appointed time after their dissappointment at the death and resurrection of Jesus.

You use the above EGW quote ignoring that there was a lot of scripture linked to this message. Not all of it was not correct or in error. Your view is that because there was no 2nd coming then all the scriptures provided with this prophetic time line are not correct either.

An error mixed with truth does not make the truth no longer truth. The prophetic time periods from Daniel and Leviticus were indeed correct. The Millerites application of the prophetic timeline to the 2nd coming was not. This we agree on.

What is being expressed in the statement you provided was that of the opposition to the message by those who opposed God's timing of it in fulfillment of the prophetic timeline. Just like the disciples of Jesus in his day. God revealed the correct application of these scrptures at a latter time period after the great dissappointment that the true disciples went through.

Sorry tall, in all honestly, I have tried to look at all your EGW quotes. At the moment everytime I have gone to check them, I have found they have been either taken out of context and you have applied an interpretation to them that they are not saying at all.

This has been shown all through this thread so far with many quotes. So please forgive me but keeping on in this manner your application here has lost credability in using these statements.

To be honest I was hoping to make this thread a bible study discussion based solely on the Word of God. I am not really interested in talking about EGW quotes here.

I enjoyed our discussion earlier when we were talking scriptures. Seems like you have abanded the scriptures in order to talk EGW. You have another thread for this. I am happy to pop in from time to time there but I was hoping to make this a bible study thread. Do you have any scriptures to share? It seems not, hence your preference to divert the thread to discuss EGW.

Do you have any scripture to share?

Hope this helps
 
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Pyong Ping

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God is looking to deliver as many as will be delivered, but also to punish the wicked who refuse, and the probation of men to end, and the wrath of God to fully fall, and therefore, be not found among that number ... (2 groups in the city, the professing (True/Sheep/Wheat/Wise and False/Goats/Tares/Foolish), 1 group outside the city (already condemned, John 3:18); Revelation 9:13-15):

Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns (day of Atonement, Exodus 30:1-16; Leviticus 16:18) of the golden (Heavenly altar of incense) altar which is before God,

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour (Revelation 14:6-7), and a day (Leviticus 16:1-34; Leviticus 23:26-32), and a month (Leviticus 23:26-32; 1 Kings 8:2), and a year (Daniel 8:13-14,26; etc), for to slay the third part of men (which means there are 3 parts of men, 3/3, 2 parts professing in the city (1 true, 1 false), 1 part never professing automatically outside the city).​

Ezekiel 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

Ezekiel 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar (the altar of slaughter on earth).

Ezekiel 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

(Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Exodus 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify (to make holy) you.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Exodus 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

Exodus 39:30 And they made the plate of the holy crown of pure gold, and wrote upon it a writing, like to the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS (sanctified) TO THE LORD.)
Ezekiel 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

(1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?)
Ezekiel 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Ezekiel 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

(Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.)​
Ezekiel 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

Ezekiel 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

Ezekiel 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.​
 
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LoveGodsWord

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God is looking to deliver as many as will be delivered, but also to punish the wicked who refuse, and the probation of men to end, and the wrath of God to fully fall, and therefore, be not found among that number ... (2 groups in the city, the professing (True/Sheep/Wheat/Wise and False/Goats/Tares/Foolish), 1 group outside the city (already condemned, John 3:18); Revelation 9:13-15):

Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns (day of Atonement, Exodus 30:1-16; Leviticus 16:18) of the golden (Heavenly altar of incense) altar which is before God,

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour (Revelation 14:6-7), and a day (Leviticus 16:1-34; Leviticus 23:26-32), and a month (Leviticus 23:26-32; 1 Kings 8:2), and a year (Daniel 8:13-14,26; etc), for to slay the third part of men (which means there are 3 parts of men, 3/3, 2 parts professing in the city (1 true, 1 false), 1 part never professing automatically outside the city).​

Ezekiel 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

Ezekiel 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar (the altar of slaughter on earth).

Ezekiel 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

(Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Exodus 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify (to make holy) you.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Exodus 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

Exodus 39:30 And they made the plate of the holy crown of pure gold, and wrote upon it a writing, like to the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS (sanctified) TO THE LORD.)
Ezekiel 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

(1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?)
Ezekiel 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Ezekiel 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

(Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.)​
Ezekiel 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

Ezekiel 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

Ezekiel 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.​

Judgment time is coming indeed. Probation is now. Tommorrow may be too late as probation can end at any time once we die. We only have today. God's sheep here his voice (the Word of God)
 
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