Predestination is based on Free Will

Doveaman

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One point that I don't see that anyone brought up is that sequential time is a creation of God as well, and that He is outside it as Creator. That is a concept human reason cannot encompass, since we have no reference, and think of everything as before or after. So when we are trying to wrap our heads around God foreknowing and predestining, which Scripture tells us both have been in place before Creation and therefore before sequential time, then we are beyond our ability to comprehend God's work in eternity (in this case past). Also, when we try to argue the particulars of how we envision God did or does something, according to our human understanding, we are stepping beyond true knowledge, and forming our own inadequate conclusions. The main point of Scripture that I see concerning predestination is that through the writers, God is giving us who trust and obey Christ the secure promise that we are His, He is doing a good work in us, and it will be accomplished, no matter what earthly circumstances come against us. Grace in operation. And so we have courage to press on.
I pretty much agree with you so far.
That is the practical end of this discussion, not who is in and who is out, and why.
But if God foresaw who is in and who is out before Creation and before sequential time, and He responded accordingly, then it would have relevance to all you said above.
 
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Doveaman

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Yep.
Except we , you, I , they, whoever
still do not have anywhere near what you posted in the post I replied to "full comprehension" as if any one of our "comprehension" was even close to Yahweh's.....

Even when we have the "mind of Christ", it is so limited today (and most certainly after resurrected also, though not as much) compared to (as if! )
Yahweh's unlimited eternal uncreated 'mental'(as if limited or described!) complexity (from our viewpoint)
Well I agree with you here to a point.

But since we have the Spirit of God's mind, it is only a matter of time (after the resurrection) before we can fully comprehend God's mind through His Spirit:

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." -- (1 Cor 13:12)
 
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Doveaman

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That is not predestination that is free will choice.
Predestination is simple God predetermining an outcome in advance: eternal glory or eternal destruction.
Predestination isn't that God foreknew what decisions you would make.
Predestination is God predetermining an outcome based on His foreknowledge of our choice to accept or reject Christ.
Predestination states God determined what those choices would be that you make.
Which part of your bible does it state that?
That no matter what you choose you have chosen what God already wanted you to choose.
God did not create robots.
 
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Dave L

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Predestination is simple God predetermining an outcome in advance: eternal glory or eternal destruction.
Predestination is God predetermining an outcome based on His foreknowledge of our choice to accept or reject Christ.
Which part of your bible does it state that?
God did not create robots.
God created all things even our choices and actions. If we create them then we are God.
 
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Doveaman

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Your entire argument rests on one Scripture and one definition of "foreknew", I hope you understand that
I do.

To foreknow is to be aware of an event before it happens, which includes God's foreknowledge of our choices.
including an unbiblical assumption of "free" choices, choices yes, free no, not according to Scripture, and there are many Scriptures which make it abundantly clear.
Where does the Scripture states that our choices are not free?
Not to mention the verse includes "those whom", and whom does God not foreknow in the sense you suggest?
That particular verse (Rom 8:29) is only referring to believers.
Then there is the problem of the Creator twiddling His thumbs not intervening or imposing His free will, submitting His Sovereign free will, to the will of His creatures, hoping someone will choose Him over satan.
Yep, that's pretty much it:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live" -- (Deut 30:19)
In the scenario of God peering through the corridors of time observing choices, "free will" is an idol, God abandoning His throne, and with "free will" the little gods shall have to exercise their free will to come into relationship and communion with big daddy God.
You are pretty much on track here too:

"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods'? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"
Further still, this "free will" cannot escape an omniscient God who knows ALL future choices of ALL of His creatures, and since God in His nature is immutable and this extends to His knowledge, God cannot be taught or learn choices His creatures will make in the future. He has always known, from all eternity, before the creation of the world.
Which gives support to my view of God's foreknowledge.
So, "foreknew" even in the sense you suggest, is not as helpful to your theology as you might think in relationship to choices and responsibility, it actually creates even greater theological problems.
Actually, "foreknew" in the sense I suggests, is helpful to my theology, it is even helpful in the sense you suggests.
 
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Doveaman

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DEFINITIONS ARE IMPORTANT (A title is intended, not shouting by the caps)

FOREKNOWLEDGE ---- This term is simply the term for knowledge of a person. In the LXX, the same word is used for when Adam "knew" Eve. The only difference is that a prefix is attached to the word which means "before." This foreknowledge is not intended to be a crystal ball to look into the future and see who is going to have faith, and not even a look into the future to see good works. It is a pre-loving knowledge of a person.
Even though there is some truth to your statement, I still see a difference with "foreknowledge".

A man knows his wife because he understands how she thinks and acts.

To know a person requires that we understand a measure of how they think an act, which includes knowing some of the choices they would make.

I know my parents and my wife and my children and my friends because I understand how they think an act and some of the choices they would make.

God knows us fully because He completely understands how we think an act and the choices we would make.
While the word is not used in Romans 9:12 this is a good illustration of the concept of foreknowledge... "it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." God foreknew Jacob, and he fore loved Jacob and chose to bless Jacob in election due to his foreknowing love for Jacob.
God loved Jacob before he was born because God knew Jacob before he was born.

God hated Esau before he was born because God knew Esau before he was born.

The love and the hate was based on God's foreknowledge of who Jacob and Esau would become.

"I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals...They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD." -- (Mal 1:2-4)

God hated Esau based on His foreknowledge of Esau's wickedness.
 
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Doveaman

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The last quote reveals a willingness to edit the Bible to suit your position. It was very important which is why it was last.

You only get this understanding when you edit the statment.
Okay, I see your concern with that edited verse.

Your point is well taken, even though it was not my intent to mislead. :)
It says we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Now this can only apply to believers. It does not mention eternal destinies but what we become in this life.
Either we were predestined for future glory in heaven or we were predestined for present salvation here on earth. Either way, our predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge of our choice to accept Christ by faith, because salvation is by faith.

If predestination is not based on God’s foreknowledge of our faith, then salvation is not by faith, but by predestination alone. Predestination would have guaranteed our salvation even before God knew of our faith, and our faith would have been guaranteed because of our predestination, which is the Calvinists view.

Since salvation requires our free choice to accept Christ by faith, then predestination to salvation would require God’s foreknowledge of that choice being made.
It is not addressing salvation of any man.
We are already saved in this present life:

"Because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved." -- (Eph 2:4-5)
You probably do not notice that God is enduring something which is odd if he predestined men to be like that which he has to endure.
And you probably do not notice that God was enduring man's sins even before the foundation of the world:

"You were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times" -- (1 Peter 1:18-20).

Christ was foreordained to be the sacrificial Lamb before the foundation of the world, which meant that God foresaw and endured the sins of man before the foundation of the world.
Not from what I read. Genesis happened and goes linearly forward. No repeats. There is no repeat of the flood coming. There is no man who becomes a nation. There is no nation to whom God gives his laws and blessing as was in Israel. The old covenant is gone and will never return. Jesus is not continually coming back in human form to live again. The earth is moving forward changing nations as the gospel goes out. IT is not at all circular.
Man moves forward, God does not:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." -- (Rev 1:8)

All human experiences (past, present and future) are in the presence of God.

With God everything is present:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
-- (John 8:58)
Where does it say becasue he knew we would choose him?
That's my biblically supported theory, which you have not yet refuted.

You obviously disagree with it, but you have not refuted it. :)
That is not based on future choices. Proverbs also tells us the bad company ruins good morals. This is the same sort of wisdom. This is not the foreknowledge of God at work. You will tie yourself up in mental knots if you maintian this.
Speak for yourself. I'm not the one who is tied up. :)
This is no where in any text nor speaks against the men who chose not to obey God.Exactly. This is how it is in the ways of God. God makes choices. Men make choices. God makes other choices based on our choices. None of this is based on foreknowledge. The chances in life are real.
But if God can foresee our choices, He can make choices in advance in response to those foreseen choices.

If God is omniscient He knows everything.

If God does not know everything He is not omniscient.

"Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God , and there is no other; I am God , and there is none like Me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." -- (Isa 46:9-10)
Uh, Shiloh is Jesus, not David.

This certainly does not describe David.
Yes, I know.

I said the kingly dynasty was from David to Jesus.

God knew beforehand that Saul's kingship would fail and David's kingship would be established leading to the kingship of Christ.
But it does not address Saul at all. It is talking about Jesus as you agree.
"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people." -- (Gen 49:10)

The prophecy predicts the kingdom of Jesus, a decedent of David, a descendant of Judah.

Saul was a descendant of Benjamin.

The prophesy was made before Saul became king, which meant that God knew beforehand that Saul (a descendant of Benjamin) would not remain king, but the kingdom would be transferred to a different king descending from Judah, namely David, before being received by Jesus.
You are changing it making it say something that is actually against what the Bible says. It says that God decided to remove the throne from Saul when he chose to do that which was forbidden, not because of some forekowledge. There is no foreknowledge spoken of in the Bible on this matter. You assume this.
No, you are adding God doing something because of foreknowledge instead of what it actually says is the reason. There is no verse that says God foreknew this in the way you speak of it. You are adding that. That passage speaks of Christ, not David and certainly not Saul.
Prophecy is based on God's foreknowledge of the future.

If you do not see God's foreknowledge in prophecy, then you do not understand what prophecy is.
Now, the scepter was not in the hands of Judah at the time of Saul. That started with David after Saul.
I agree.

It started with Judah's descendant, David, and it now remains with Judah's descendant, Christ.
Continued until the nations went into captivity and there was no king as far as I recall.
But there is a King now, Jesus, a descendant of David and Judah.
You agree Shiloh was Jesus and obedience is certainly given to him by the people, his people that is. So Saul is not a part of that prophesy as Judah was not having the scepter yet.
I already explained above why I mentioned Saul in relation to the prophecy.

Before God chose Saul to be king, God already knew beforehand that Saul would fail as a king.

Foreknowledge.
 
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Doveaman

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when did the LORD acquire this knowledge of our free choices?
God is omniscient and omnipresent, so it seems to me He always knew.

Was there ever a time when God did not know something? :)
if the LORD already knew what choices we were going to make, doesn't that make those choices static?
Good question.

It would not be static for us humans, of course.

I think when God sees into our future He sees our choices in motion, not static, and then He incorporate our free choices into His eternal plan so that everything works out according to His will.

But that's just my opinion. :)
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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God is omniscient and omnipresent, so it seems to me He always knew.
so God has full knowledge of all the actions and events in time and the choices His creatures will make and never learned this knowledge from anywhere? He always had it?

ok..

It would not be static for us humans, of course.

I think when God sees into our future He sees our choices in motion, not static, and then He incorporate our free choices into His eternal plan so that everything works out according to His will.

humans can't see into the future so they don't know what will happen.

if God always knew every choice we would make then this means the choices we make were set in stone from eternity past(as you admitted the LORD didn't learn this knowledge but always had it).

if this isn't so, then you have a situation where the LORD is simply reacting to things which he is discovering regarding our choices. this nullifies omniscience.
 
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Where does the Scripture states that our choices are not free?

For this response, I prefer to focus on your question here. You said that you understand your argument rests on the one Scripture, so you should have no problem accepting the correction of Scripture, concerning the notion of "free" choices, free being the key word. Without further ado here is a sample of verses for help and meditation.

Job 14:4 - Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!
Job 15:14-16 - What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin."

John 14:16-18 - And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees Him nor knows Him

Romans 6:6 - knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Romans 8:5-8 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Galatians 5:17 - For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Ephesians 2:1
- And you were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deuteronomy 30:6

“Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’ “And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. “Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, “that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. - Ezekiel 11:17-20

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.. - Ezekiel 36:24-28

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12 [also see Matthew 5:8, Matthew 13:13-23, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, Luke 10:24, John 5:37, John 12:40]

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65

Psalm 115:3. “But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.”

Psalm 135:6
. “Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.”

Isaiah 46:10-11
. “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.... Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

Job 42:2
. “You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.”

Daniel 4:35
. “He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand.”

Proverbs 16:1. “The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.”

Proverbs 16:9
. “A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.”

Proverbs 19:21
. “There are many plans in a man’s heart; nevertheless, the LORD’S counsel. that will stand.”

Revelation 17:17. “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
. “For this reason God will send them [those who perish] strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned.”

Romans 9:18-21
. “He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?’ But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”

Deuteronomy 2:30
. “But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.”

Joshua 11:19-20
. “There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.”

Exodus 10:1, 20
. “Now the LORD said to Moses, ‘Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before them….’ But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go” (cf. Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 14:4; 20:27).

John 12:39-40
. “Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and understand with their heart, lest they should turn, so that I should heal them” (cf. Mk. 4:11-12).

Luke 24:4
. “And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.”

Acts 16:14
. “Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”

Philippians 2:13
. “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

So yeah, not so free choices, rather a limited freedom bound to the nature of the will, conditioned by experiences, and limited in many other ways by external environment, geological location, place in time, etc. etc. In the simplest of terms, man is either a slave to Christ or a slave to satan, and salvation belongs to God, He chooses first, He alone does what we cannot in the miraculous work of regeneration.
 
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Don Maurer

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Even though there is some truth to your statement, I still see a difference with "foreknowledge".

A man knows his wife because he understands how she thinks and acts.

To know a person requires that we understand a measure of how they think an act, which includes knowing some of the choices they would make.

I know my parents and my wife and my children and my friends because I understand how they think an act and some of the choices they would make.
Thank you for your respectful tone. It makes it worth replying.

When I look at the analogies you use of foreknowledge, I would see a difference between our foreknowledge and gods foreknowledge. Your right in that we would know a persons reaction to some events in the lives of family and friends, but the nature of God's foreknowledge is different in that it is God that first changes the nature of man in regeneration. God does not look into the future to see faith, because left on our own, no one has the ability to choose Christ without this being a work of God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
In John 6:44 the word "can" (dunami) refers to ability. It is not by our ability that we come to Christ, but it is by the work of God that we come to him. He is the one that draws.

by the way, this "drawing" is infallible. The ones who are drawn, are raised up on the last day. This speaks of salvation. That phrase is used three times in this context.

This is why Phil 1:29 says... "because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:" Here, belief, or faith is "granted" to those that believe. Faith is a gift from God, not a human work for God.

So then, applying this, if God looks into the future, what he sees is his own work in giving men faith, not peeking into the future to see who will believe on him.

God knows us fully because He completely understands how we think an act and the choices we would make.
God loved Jacob before he was born because God knew Jacob before he was born.

God hated Esau before he was born because God knew Esau before he was born.

The love and the hate was based on God's foreknowledge of who Jacob and Esau would become.

"I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals...They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD." -- (Mal 1:2-4)

God hated Esau based on His foreknowledge of Esau's wickedness.
I wonder how you can read things in Romans 9 the way you do when the context states ....

And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac-- for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Since the context directly states that Gods hatred for Esau is not based upon any special fault of Esau, and he chose Jacob not because of anything good in Jacob. In these verses, the reason for Gods hatred of Esau and love of Jacob had everything to do with God.

This context seems a better illustration that God foreknows in the sense that he foreloves intently and this is what it means to foreknow.

Verse 16 reaffirms this when it says... "
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy." The will of man is not the issue of foreknoweldge, the man that runs the race is not the issue of foreknowlede, it is God who shows mercy.
 
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Jipsah

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"Foreknowledge is solely based on predestination"
And again, I never heard any Calvinist say any such silly thing. Free Willies often claim that "predestine" really means "foreknow", but that's nonsense as well.

If foreknowledge is based on predestination
It isn't, and any Calvinist, if there are any, who believes that is a nincompoop.

I've been told this multiple times by Calvinists, that God can't know without decreeing.
Interesting. I've been a Calvinist for a long time and never heard anyone express such a goofy belief. Maybe you misunderstood them.

In any case, St. Paul says:
(Ephesians 1)
28A nd we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God foreknew
God predestined
God called
God justified
God glorified

Free Willies would chuck out all but God foreknew.

Soli Deo gloria
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Thank you for your respectful tone. It makes it worth replying.

When I look at the analogies you use of foreknowledge, I would see a difference between our foreknowledge and gods foreknowledge. Your right in that we would know a persons reaction to some events in the lives of family and friends, but the nature of God's foreknowledge is different in that it is God that first changes the nature of man in regeneration.
So God first acts and changes a man making him cruel because he doesn’t do that for all. (This, btw, is not true. He doesn’t.)
God does not look into the future to see faith, because left on our own, no one has the ability to choose Christ without this being a work of God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
That verse doesn’t say God changes a man. You’re changing the description to fit your man theology.
In John 6:44 the word "can" (dunami) refers to ability. It is not by our ability that we come to Christ, but it is by the work of God that we come to him. He is the one that draws.
Draw a man is not change a man. It promises no internal interference.
Draw is from the outside.
by the way, this "drawing" is infallible.
Totally against the teachings of Christ.
The ones who are drawn, are raised up on the last day. This speaks of salvation. That phrase is used three times in this context.
If it all goes well. If he doesn’t fall away.
This is why Phil 1:29 says... "because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:" Here, belief, or faith is "granted" to those that believe. Faith is a gift from God, not a human work for God.
Then why did Jesus blame men for their lack of faith. Why didn’t he blame God?
So then, applying this, if God looks into the future, what he sees is his own work in giving men faith, not peeking into the future to see who will believe on him.
He does nothing of the kind. No word says He looks into the future of individuals and makes choices today based on that. It is extremely unjust.
I wonder how you can read things in Romans 9 the way you do when the context states ....

And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac-- for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
They weren’t called for salvation or damnation before birth. They were called to be Israel.
Since the context directly states that Gods hatred for Esau is not based upon any special fault of Esau, and he chose Jacob not because of anything good in Jacob. In these verses, the reason for Gods hatred of Esau and love of Jacob had everything to do with God.
God loves the man Esau and blessed him. The verse refers to the nations.
This context seems a better illustration that God foreknows in the sense that he foreloves intently and this is what it means to foreknow.
How cruel!!! He does no such thing. John 3:16
Verse 16 reaffirms this when it says... "
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy." The will of man is not the issue of foreknoweldge, the man that runs the race is not the issue of foreknowlede, it is God who shows mercy.
There is more to God and the Bible than salvation. God has mercy on whosoever will.
 
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Dorothy Mae said in post #82:

Did Paul or John tell the believers they did not choose Jesus but he chose them?

In so many words (e.g. John 1:13, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 9:16).

Dorothy Mae said in post #82:

Says we, the believers, are predestined to be like Jesus.

Only if we obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Dorothy Mae said in post #82:

Predestined means Gods plan. Does not mean set in stone and cannot fail in the lives of some.

Initial salvation cannot fail (Acts 13:48b). For it has nothing to do with our works (Titus 3:5).

*******

Dorothy Mae said in post #88:

It does not say that only by the HS can a man believe.

It does require the Holy Spirit to believe the Gospel of eternal salvation (1 Corinthians 2:11-16; 1 Corinthians 1:18).

*******

Dorothy Mae said in post #90:

The Centurion was not of the world. He believed.

He believed that God could heal people through Jesus.

Dorothy Mae said in post #90:

Was he filled with the HS? No, because it was not yet given.

John 7:39 did not mean that the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit was completely unknown before John 20:22 and Acts 2. For verses like Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Exodus 31:3, Isaiah 63:11, and 1 Peter 1:11 show that it was experienced by some individuals before John 20:22 and Acts 2, and even in Old Testament times. So John 7:39 must mean that the Holy Spirit was not yet offered generally to all believers, as He is under the New Covenant, as was prophesied in the Old Testament (Joel 2:28-29, quoted in Acts 2:16-18).

John 7:39 could also mean that the measure of the Spirit offered since Acts 2 was not given before that time. For even before Acts 2, on the day of Jesus Christ's physical resurrection, when He first appeared to His apostles, He gave them some measure of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). But He still told them to wait for what would happen later in Acts 2 (Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8).

Acts 2 was the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit for the disciples (Acts 1:5), which is different than the baptism in water.

*******

Dorothy Mae said in post #113:

God loves the man Esau and blessed him. The verse refers to the nations.

Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Dorothy Mae said in post #113:

How cruel!!! He does no such thing. John 3:16

John 3:16 does not mean that God loves everyone in the world, for He hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22).

What John 3:16 says does not require that God loves everyone in the world, just as, for example, saying that a person loves TV does not require that that person loves every show on TV.

In the Bible, "the world" does not have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 does not include Christians, so "the world" in John 3:16 does not include nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it does not include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who did not hear Jesus Christ speak to them during His preaching before His arrest.

John 3:16 means that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ gets initially saved.

It does not mean that everyone can believe in Jesus, for other verses show that some people (the nonelect) cannot ever believe in Him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, it does not mean that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people will never be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

Also, it does not mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, He intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).

Dorothy Mae said in post #113:

God has mercy on whosoever will.

On whosoever He will (Romans 9:18). And that does not include the nonelect/vessels of wrath (Romans 9:11-22).
 
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Doveaman said in post #99:

Election is by the act of our mind to choose faith.

No, election is God choosing our initial faith (John 6:65, Ephesians 2:8).

Doveaman said in post #99:

It is based on our free will to choose faith.

Our will had nothing to do with our initial faith (John 1:13).

Doveaman said in post #99:

God is love.

God being love (1 John 4:8,16) does not mean that He loves everyone (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13), just as God being a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) does not mean that He is consuming everyone in fire (Revelation 14:10-11). Also, God chastens those whom He loves during their lifetime (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6), but not everyone receives chastening from God during their lifetime (Hebrews 12:7-8). Therefore, God does not love everyone.

Doveaman said in post #99:

God hating/detesting Esau is based on God's foreknowledge of the wickedness that Esau would become.

No, it was based on nonelection, which, like election, has nothing at all to do with works, bad or good (Romans 9:11-24).

Doveaman said in post #99:

God always gives us the freedom to accept or reject faith in Christ, and then God response accordingly.

We have no choice about coming into initial faith (Romans 9:16), for we are born again by faith apart from our will being involved (John 1:13). But we do have a choice about remaining in the faith (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Doveaman said in post #99:

God did not cause Pharaoh's stubbornness . . .

Not all of it. But God repeatedly did cause Pharaoh's stubbornness (Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 7:13, Exodus 9:12, Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27, Exodus 11:10, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:8).

And that is the point of Romans 9:18, the latter part of which applies to all nonelect people, such as Pharaoh.
 
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Don Maurer

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So God first acts and changes a man making him cruel because he doesn’t do that for all. (This, btw, is not true. He doesn’t.)
Dorothy, I really do not want to reply to this. Your charge is a false charge. I never said anything close to what your claiming I said.

That verse doesn’t say God changes a man. You’re changing the description to fit your man theology. Draw a man is not change a man. It promises no internal interference.
Draw is from the outside. Totally against the teachings of Christ.If it all goes well. If he doesn’t fall away.
Titus 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Also, many passages use the term "born again, or begotten of God"
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
The concept of regeneration is used multiple times in both 1 John and the Gospel of John.

Then why did Jesus blame men for their lack of faith. Why didn’t he blame God?
He does nothing of the kind. No word says He looks into the future of individuals and makes choices today based on that. It is extremely unjust.
First, I never said it is the responsibility of God to give faith to anyone. That is mans responsibility. Also, with regard to justice, if God were simply just, he would send all men to hell as they deserve and that would be just. Your comments leave out something called Grace. Grace is the entire basis of the Gospel, not a combination of human works and a little bit of Gods grace.

They weren’t called for salvation or damnation before birth. They were called to be Israel. God loves the man Esau and blessed him. The verse refers to the nations.
How cruel!!! He does no such thing. John 3:16

There is more to God and the Bible than salvation. God has mercy on whosoever will.
Election took place in eternity past.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
 
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Dorothy Mae

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In so many words (e.g. John 1:13, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 9:16).



Only if we obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).



Initial salvation cannot fail (Acts 13:48b). For it has nothing to do with our works (Titus 3:5).

*******



It does require the Holy Spirit to believe the Gospel of eternal salvation (1 Corinthians 2:11-16; 1 Corinthians 1:18).

*******



He believed that God could heal people through Jesus.



John 7:39 did not mean that the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit was completely unknown before John 20:22 and Acts 2. For verses like Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Exodus 31:3, Isaiah 63:11, and 1 Peter 1:11 show that it was experienced by some individuals before John 20:22 and Acts 2, and even in Old Testament times. So John 7:39 must mean that the Holy Spirit was not yet offered generally to all believers, as He is under the New Covenant, as was prophesied in the Old Testament (Joel 2:28-29, quoted in Acts 2:16-18).

John 7:39 could also mean that the measure of the Spirit offered since Acts 2 was not given before that time. For even before Acts 2, on the day of Jesus Christ's physical resurrection, when He first appeared to His apostles, He gave them some measure of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). But He still told them to wait for what would happen later in Acts 2 (Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8).

Acts 2 was the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit for the disciples (Acts 1:5), which is different than the baptism in water.

*******



Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).



John 3:16 does not mean that God loves everyone in the world, for He hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22).

What John 3:16 says does not require that God loves everyone in the world, just as, for example, saying that a person loves TV does not require that that person loves every show on TV.

In the Bible, "the world" does not have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 does not include Christians, so "the world" in John 3:16 does not include nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it does not include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who did not hear Jesus Christ speak to them during His preaching before His arrest.

John 3:16 means that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ gets initially saved.

It does not mean that everyone can believe in Jesus, for other verses show that some people (the nonelect) cannot ever believe in Him (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, it does not mean that everyone will be saved, for other verses show that most people will never be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

Also, it does not mean that God originally intended to save everyone. For before the foundation of the world, He intended to save only the elect, the chosen (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13b, Acts 13:48b).



On whosoever He will (Romans 9:18). And that does not include the nonelect/vessels of wrath (Romans 9:11-22).
B2+, maybe I’ll get back to you later, but the god you describe is extremely cruel and the scriptures you present are NOT what the authors had in their thinking as evidenced by direct contrary things they wrote. I’ve dealt with Calvinists before and it is useless to discuss this since their god is accepted as cruel with no qualms as long as they believe they are going to Heaven. That alone produces very bad fruit. As said, maybe later. For now it’s too painful to read lies about Him.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Dorothy, I really do not want to reply to this. Your charge is a false charge. I never said anything close to what your claiming I said.
Yes you did. Shall I get the quote?
Titus 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
No one says we are saved by works. Better stop bearing that dead horse. But repentance is absolutely required and must be done or there is no salvation from sin. Repentance is not a work but we must do it.
Also, many passages use the term "born again, or begotten of God"
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Actually “born again” is used once said to one man who was not a disciple.
The concept of regeneration is used multiple times in both 1 John and the Gospel of John.
No doubt. But that which is regenerated can again degenerate.
First, I never said it is the responsibility of God to give faith to anyone. That is mans responsibility.
Ok so faith is our job, right?
Also, with regard to justice, if God were simply just, he would send all men to hell as they deserve and that would be just.
No, your view is way too limited. The blood of Jesus was necessary for salvation as it has to do with justice.
Your comments leave out something called Grace. Grace is the entire basis of the Gospel, not a combination of human works and a little bit of Gods grace.
Grace is a different subject. But since you brought it up, grace is never described in the Bible as unmerited favor. It isn’t merited either. Do you know who finds grace in Gods eyes?
Election took place in eternity past.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Agsin, election to be holy and blameless? Are you? Salvation is NOT mentioned.
 
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Loren T.

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You know what is funny. You will never find a calvinist who does not believe that he is among the elect. And yet, logic says if thier theology were correct, many would have to be among the nonelect. It's like hoping to win God's lottery.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You know what is funny. You will never find a calvinist who does not believe that he is among the elect. And yet, logic says if thier theology were correct, many would have to be among the nonelect. It's like hoping to win God's lottery.
It would be funny, yes, except for the consequences (multitudes of forever lost souls).

Not until judgment day do they (multitudes* referred to in Revelation) find out "all you did was for show, not obedient to Me" "bye" (forever) ....

*multitudes which may include from all walks of life, thinking they are 'saved' right up until the day they die .... whoever......
 
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