Does God forget people who end up in Hell?

mmksparbud · Aug 4, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
Years are as days in prophecy(Ez 4:6, Num 14:34) but your right that is my bad it was only about three and half years not seven(I was thinking of another prophecy).

I understand about a day in prophecy can be a year--however. In which case---

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

but it does not read days---it reads years. That can not apply to this or it would then read Satn is bound for 1000 days. If you are thinking about 0ne day is as a 1000 years to God.

Psa_90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

that is not talking about prophetic time. Nowhere does it say I have appointed you a 1000 years for one day, nor I have appointed you one day for a 1000 years. In which case it would read---Satan is bound for 10 days, doesn't say that. Or it would have read--Satan is bound for 7000 years. Any way you want to look at it---Satan is bound for a 1000 years and the saved reign with Christ for those same 1000 years.
Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 4, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
1. He has the ability to destroy and create at will. That is shown throughout the bible and reiterated again in Matt 10:28.

What has He ever created since he rested on the 7th day. Be specific please. What prophet preached the above in an effort to get men to be afraid of God? Since when is the fear of God being afraid He mist destroy you at any time? When did He ever just destroy someone out of the blue and for what reason?

2. It's different because one the person is being cast into hell, yes it could still be the grave being spoken of in luke but I lean more towards it referring to the figurative place of punishment meaning of(Geenna). Like I said, it could definitely still be referring to the grave in Luke I have to do a bit more study on the Greek for this one. Again though if it is the figurative version then it is just a figurative not a literal representation of what will happen.

But the grave is not scary to anyone. No one is afraid of their dead body being thrown into the grave. That makes no sense at all. And again, if the whole thing we are to be afraid of never will happen in real experience cause it is all figurative, why be afraid and what is it figurative for? You need to think your position through to the end.

3. You may believe what you wish about me, but I base what I say solely on scripture and nothing else.

No, you have decided "hell" means "grave" despite the words Luke uses which is throw you body and soul into hell. He is not telling men to be afraid God will throw their dead body with the soul in it into the grave. You can see if you can twist the Greek to mean something besides what it obviously means but know that this is what you are doing.

4. We should not fear man at all who can only the destroy the body, but we should fear the Lord who can destroy the body and soul that is the clear meaning of it.

How many people do we know where God has destroyed the body and soul in the grave? Just the grave, mind you. None.

And what is more, if you read about the fear of the Lord, which I recommend, you will not find that it means being afraid that God will destory the body and soul in the grave or at any time he chooses. I do not see that this is what anyone who knew God feared.

Again it does not say he will but he has the ability to, scripture says that he will reserve punishment until the Day of Judgment so that is what it will be.

If he won't then of what good is knowing he has the ability to do so? And what is the fearful part? The Judgement, not the grave, and what comes after which is eternal punishment or reward.

5. You misunderstand, it is only these two verses that are speaking figuratively, the lake of fire is real as can be I have said as much multiple times. And hell exists just as much as you and I do. You can't get past these to verses that is why your not understanding what I tell you.

You said hell=grave. So yes, the grave is real. I see them often. Been to some funerals too. THe grave (hell for you) is real. You assume figurative so I am asking figurative for what? There is no evidence it is figurature and therefore not fearful, but let's hear what you think it is figurative for and not real.

6. We have no reason to fear the death or the grave/hell if we follow Christ as we will be raised up at the Resurrection to live eternally with him. What we SHOULD fear the Lake of Fire that awaits all those who break the Law of Christ.

That is not the discussion. You think when Jesus talks of hell he is merely talking of the physical grave which no man ever was afraid of nor will be. This is the problem. You think there is no hell, just graves. No one will argue with you that graves do not exist.

7. Again sister you seem to be unable to get past these two verses and misunderstand all that I am saying to you.
A. Hell is the grave sheol, Hades the place the all the dead go when they die. They sleep in the grave/hell.

I understand it completely and think you are completely wrong and your position makes no sense at all. NO one is afraid of the grave. People are afraid of hell. You do not seem to understand this.

B. The lake of fire is the place of eternal torment that all those who break the Law of Christ and cast into on the day of Judgment.

Where does the Bible say those who break the Law of Christ are cast into the lake of fire. Not doubting the lake of fire, just doubting the "Law of Christ." What is that and how does it differ from the law of God?

C. These two verse are only a figurative warning to show us what the Lord is capable of that man is not, that is all and nothing more. There are dozens of verses throughout the bible that show what will happen if we break the law in a literal sense these two are not them.

That makes no sense at all. Jesus was warning about hell, a terrible place to be. He was not saying God is able to destroy at any time although He never will so be afraid. He never talked like that before. But he did warn about hell and often.

ClementofA · Aug 4, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

DennisTate · Aug 4, 2018

Far Side Of the Moon said:
I was wondering does God remember people in Hell?
I was watching a few videos on the topic...

One said in her experience when she went to hell and she couldn't feel anything.. no love, comfort...nothing

and it made me wonder if God still remembers the souls of those in Hell.

and if he does how does He resist trying to save/help them?

This may help......

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05d

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Aug 4, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
What has He ever created since he rested on the 7th day. Be specific please. What prophet preached the above in an effort to get men to be afraid of God? Since when is the fear of God being afraid He mist destroy you at any time? When did He ever just destroy someone out of the blue and for what reason?
But the grave is not scary to anyone. No one is afraid of their dead body being thrown into the grave. That makes no sense at all. And again, if the whole thing we are to be afraid of never will happen in real experience cause it is all figurative, why be afraid and what is it figurative for? You need to think your position through to the end.
No, you have decided "hell" means "grave" despite the words Luke uses which is throw you body and soul into hell. He is not telling men to be afraid God will throw their dead body with the soul in it into the grave. You can see if you can twist the Greek to mean something besides what it obviously means but know that this is what you are doing. How many people do we know where God has destroyed the body and soul in the grave? Just the grave, mind you. None.

And what is more, if you read about the fear of the Lord, which I recommend, you will not find that it means being afraid that God will destory the body and soul in the grave or at any time he chooses. I do not see that this is what anyone who knew God feared.

If he won't then of what good is knowing he has the ability to do so? And what is the fearful part? The Judgement, not the grave, and what comes after which is eternal punishment or reward.
You said hell=grave. So yes, the grave is real. I see them often. Been to some funerals too. THe grave (hell for you) is real. You assume figurative so I am asking figurative for what? There is no evidence it is figurature and therefore not fearful, but let's hear what you think it is figurative for and not real.
That is not the discussion. You think when Jesus talks of hell he is merely talking of the physical grave which no man ever was afraid of nor will be. This is the problem. You think there is no hell, just graves. No one will argue with you that graves do not exist.
I understand it completely and think you are completely wrong and your position makes no sense at all. NO one is afraid of the grave. People are afraid of hell. You do not seem to understand this.Where does the Bible say those who break the Law of Christ are cast into the lake of fire. Not doubting the lake of fire, just doubting the "Law of Christ." What is that and how does it differ from the law of God? That makes no sense at all. Jesus was warning about hell, a terrible place to be. He was not saying God is able to destroy at any time although He never will so be afraid. He never talked like that before. But he did warn about hell and often.

1. Again he has the ability to, unless your saying he lost the power of creation?
2. Again Christ says to be afraid of he can destroy not just the body as a man can but he who CAN destroy both the body and soul. Again not that he has or that he will but that he CAN, the whole point you keep missing.
3. I have, Hell is the Grave and we should fear him who can destroy us body and Soul but has chosen to reserve judgment until the day of judgment. When he shall cast the wicked into the lake of fire. Again the word used for hell in these two passages has three meanings
1067. geenna
1. and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, ,a valley of Jerusalem
2. a place underneath the earth, hell.
3. a place of punishment for evil. used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment

That is why only by looking at the context of the sentence can we derive the meaning of the word. One place could be speaking figuratively(or literally as in something that will happen) of the everlasting punishment(and not that men are being punished as we speak) that comes not in the grave but in the lake of fire, another could be speaking of a valley near Jerusalem, and another still could be speaking of the grave. That nature/meaning of the word can only be shown by looking at it in context.

4. I have explained that hell is Sheol/hades the grave the place of departed souls. The word used for hell in verses you are discussing has multiple meanings as most Greek words do. When they say hell and Geenna is used it can refer to the grave a valley of jerusalem, and the lake of fire.

5. I agree the grave is where a man sleeps, are you saying that the Lord does not have the power to destroy your soul in the grave? The says he does have this power but has chosen to reserve judgment until the day of judgment.

6. No you keep missing the point though, the only thing these verses are saying is to Fear the Lord because he can do what no man can do that is he can destroy both body and soul while a man can only destroy the body. That is it.

7. The fearful part is that he can destroy body and soul while man cannot, it is saying not to fear man but to fear God who can destroy your soul on the day of Judgement.

8. Again you can't seem to understand that this word has more than one meaning. One meaning is the grave and another is:a place of punishment for evil. used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment. That is the definition of the word i'm just reciting it for you.

9. Yes it is the discussion, Hell is the grave Sheol but the word used for hell does not always mean the grave when the word used in the Greek is Geenna it is only mistranslated as hell, it is referring at some points to the lake of fire like in Mark 9:43 by the context we can see this something that will indeed come to pass but not something that is happening at this very moment.

10. I agree we have no need to fear the grave if we follow Christ, but we should fear the Lord's wrath and the lake of fire he will sentence us to if we deny him.

11. Revelation 14, and twenty would be the best examples sinners suffering final punishment in the lake of fire.

12. The law of Christ is the Law of God, Galatians 6:2.

13. Christ was warns us about the lake of fire the final punishment for the wicked. But these verses are simply telling us to fear God who can punish in a way no man has the ability to do. That's it, that's all.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Aug 4, 2018

mmksparbud said:
I understand about a day in prophecy can be a year--however. In which case---

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

but it does not read days---it reads years. That can not apply to this or it would then read Satn is bound for 1000 days. If you are thinking about 0ne day is as a 1000 years to God.

Psa_90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

that is not talking about prophetic time. Nowhere does it say I have appointed you a 1000 years for one day, nor I have appointed you one day for a 1000 years. In which case it would read---Satan is bound for 10 days, doesn't say that. Or it would have read--Satan is bound for 7000 years. Any way you want to look at it---Satan is bound for a 1000 years and the saved reign with Christ for those same 1000 years.
Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Days are as years and years as as days. In the old testament we are shown days for years, but for this prophecy the time is cut short or else no flesh will survive.
Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is for the elect's sake the days are shortened.
2. No I was not speaking to the passages you quoted.

mmksparbud · Aug 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

You believe sanity is the soul???? so you do not think that those that are insane have a soul? You don't think those with down syndrome have a soul??? Schizophrenics do not have souls? As long as they take their medication they have a soul but don't without it??? The Prodigal wasn't insane, he was greedy and selfish, but he didn't have a soul?? God took it from him than gave it back as He did Nebby?? You can believe that if you want. I never will. God did it for Nebby to show him who is God. Doesn't say a word about loosing his soul, nor does the Prodigal son. It says he was dead and is alive. He was not physically dead, the son never died. He was gone from the father, he was still alive and of a sound mind, he just was being totally selfish. Are all that are greedy and self centered without a soul? At the time you put yourself ahead of everyone else, are you then without a soul?? Neither are those in hell without a soul until they die that 2nd death, at which point their breath goes back to God who gave it and this time, they will never get it back.

mmksparbud · Aug 4, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
Days are as years and years as as days. In the old testament we are shown days for years, but for this prophecy the time is cut short or else no flesh will survive.
Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is for the elect's sake the days are shortened.
2. No I was not speaking to the passages you quoted.

Revelation is pretty plain---Satan is bound for a 1000 years and the saved are in heaven with Jesus for those same 1000 years.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Aug 4, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Revelation is pretty plain---Satan is bound for a 1000 years and the saved are in heaven with Jesus for those same 1000 years.

I agree it is very plain, only those who died and saved are part of the first Resurrection the other righteous who still live reside in the valley of the mountain which is encompassed by the wicked at the last hour. If the 1000 years were not shortened as the lord says no flesh righteous or wicked would survive.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 4, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
1. Again he has the ability to, unless your saying he lost the power of creation?

You can assign all manner of things he has the ability to do but never does and that just means you are making him up to be whoever you want. If a man wants to know God, he must take God to be as God describes himself. I asked when God ever created since he rested on the 7th day. You do not have any examples do you? That means you are not limiting the ways of God to what God describes Himself as doing. God rested from creation. That is what the Word of God says. That is what I stand on and something I imagine as you do.

2. Again Christ says to be afraid of he can destroy not just the body as a man can but he who CAN destroy both the body and soul. Again not that he has or that he will but that he CAN, the whole point you keep missing.

Again, you imagne that God can wipe out anyone at anytime, something He does not do. Again you create God out of your own thinking despite what the Bible says are his ways. That is not what Jesus was doing. No one in the Bible who walked with God was afraid that God would destroy them at any minute. This is not who God is.

3. I have, Hell is the Grave and we should fear him who can destroy us body and Soul but has chosen to reserve judgment until the day of judgment.

Then we have nothing to fear is hell is merely the hole in the ground where the dead body goes and is destroyed by decay no matter how we lived.

When he shall cast the wicked into the lake of fire. Again the word used for hell in these two passages has three meanings
1067. geenna
1. and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, ,a valley of Jerusalem
2. a place underneath the earth, hell.
3. a place of punishment for evil. used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment

Same as hell. That is something to be afraid of.

That is why only by looking at the context of the sentence can we derive the meaning of the word. One place could be speaking figuratively(or literally as in something that will happen) of the everlasting punishment(and not that men are being punished as we speak) that comes not in the grave but in the lake of fire, another could be speaking of a valley near Jerusalem, and another still could be speaking of the grave. That nature/meaning of the word can only be shown by looking at it in context.

Speaking of the hole in the ground makes no sense. The body is destroyed there no matter what or who one fears. No exceptions for us. Believers' bodies are not strangely preserved in the grave.

4. I have explained that hell is Sheol/hades the grave the place of departed souls. The word used for hell in verses you are discussing has multiple meanings as most Greek words do. When they say hell and Geenna is used it can refer to the grave a valley of jerusalem, and the lake of fire.

Then why do you insist it always means only the grave where the body literally lays and nothing to be afraid of? Hell is the place of the departed souls for those, now, who are send there. IT is not the hole in the ground.

5. I agree the grave is where a man sleeps, are you saying that the Lord does not have the power to destroy your soul in the grave?

Again, you allow yourself to paint whatever picture you want of what God can do and therefore does. THis is making up GOd to be what you want not using what men who knew Him said He is.

The says he does have this power but has chosen to reserve judgment until the day of judgment.

No it does not. Those people who know God stand their faith on what God does and what He has said. We do not imagine what God can do but does not do as a basis for faith. Not in the Bible and not in real life. Jesus was warning men to fear God which actually means obey Him because there is final judgment coming where said God will throw men into Hell.
Now I do not pretend to know the details of what happens after this life, but the Bible and personal testimony seems to indicate an immediate removal of the soul to one of two places, hell or heaven. Either angles show up to escort the believers home or the demonic forces come and take the soul. This is something that happens at death when the body is headed for the grave. I do not need to know the details as I am not responsible for any of it.

6. No you keep missing the point though, the only thing these verses are saying is to Fear the Lord because he can do what no man can do that is he can destroy both body and soul while a man can only destroy the body. That is it.

The destruction is not the grave but hell, a different place. The body is being destroyed in the grave and God is not doing it. It is undergoing such in hell. That is what we are told to be aware of in our choices that God will judge. The list a man can come up with of things God can do but never does is long and probably endless. That is no reason to build anything upon, the imagination of the mind.

7. The fearful part is that he can destroy body and soul while man cannot, it is saying not to fear man but to fear God who can destroy your soul on the day of Judgement.

That too but the grave is not hell. Jesus is not telling men to be afraid of what happens in the literal grave where the body is destroyed by natural processes, something no man is afraid of but all adults are aware of. You made the whole thing telling us something no one is afraid of, the literal grave.

8. Again you can't seem to understand that this word has more than one meaning. One meaning is the grave and another is:a place of punishment for evil. used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment. That is the definition of the word i'm just reciting it for you.

OK, then Jesus was telling us to be afraid of God who can destroy body and soul in the place of punishment for evil. Why do you keep insisting he is talking about the literal grave? (And I am not the one who seemed not to know words have more than one meaning and places have more than one word describing them..)

9. Yes it is the discussion, Hell is the grave Sheol but the word used for hell does not always mean the grave when the word used in the Greek is Geenna it is only mistranslated as hell, it is referring at some points to the lake of fire like in Mark 9:43 by the context we can see this something that will indeed come to pass but not something that is happening at this very moment.

Now hell is the grave and now hell is the place of punishment. Make up your mind.

10. I agree we have no need to fear the grave if we follow Christ, but we should fear the Lord's wrath and the lake of fire he will sentence us to if we deny him.

In this case "deny" means not to obey Him. It does not mean one tells other that they are not a Christian.

11. Revelation 14, and twenty would be the best examples sinners suffering final punishment in the lake of fire.

I think the account of the rich man and Lazarus is the best example.

12. The law of Christ is the Law of God, Galatians 6:2.

Ah, so bearing one another's burdens is the law of Christ. Seems easy enough.

13. Christ was warns us about the lake of fire the final punishment for the wicked. But these verses are simply telling us to fear God who can punish in a way no man has the ability to do. That's it, that's all.

Well, after we die and the soul departs the body and goes to one of two places. The fear of God is not really the fear of punishment per se. It is certainly not the fear of hell. (No one is afraid of the grave for their body as I repeatedly said so that can be discounted as a meaning.)

Notice that I am not drawn into the false argument of "can God do xyz" that you propose often. I base my knowledge of God on how God actually acts in the affairs of men. It is called the ways of God in the Bible. Those who walked with God understood them. The questions were always, "how do you act in these matters" not "what can I imagine God can do being all_______(fill in the blank.)" IF you want to know HIm, you cannot make up what you think God has the ability to do but does not as a basis. That is working from the imagination of the mind. No one knows God, the One True, by imagining what He could do if he wanted to do.

mmksparbud · Aug 5, 2018

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:
I agree it is very plain, only those who died and saved are part of the first Resurrection the other righteous who still live reside in the valley of the mountain which is encompassed by the wicked at the last hour. If the 1000 years were not shortened as the lord says no flesh righteous or wicked would survive.

There is nothing to shorten! All the wicked are dead---the living wicked died at His coming, the dead wicked stay dead. The dead saved are resurrected, the living saved and the saved resurrected all go to heaven for 1000 years---living with Jesus in heaven is nothing to be shortened! Satan in bound for a 1000 years---nobody wants that shortened either!!

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Aug 5, 2018

mmksparbud said:
There is nothing to shorten! All the wicked are dead---the living wicked died at His coming, the dead wicked stay dead. The dead saved are resurrected, the living saved and the saved resurrected all go to heaven for 1000 years---living with Jesus in heaven is nothing to be shortened! Satan in bound for a 1000 years---nobody wants that shortened either!!

The kingdom of God is set up in the valley of the Mountain on earth before the Lord's coming this is the place surrounded by the unrighteous right after the devil is loosed and right before the Lord returns.
(1) Jerusalem will be taken (Zech 14:1-2, Isaiah 13:16)
(2) The residue of the poeple will not be cut off (Zech 14:2)
(3) Christ spiritually stands Mt.of Olives and drives out the nations who took Jerusalem (Zech 14:3, Ezekiel 11:23)
(4) People of God will flee to the valley of the Mt. (Zech 14:5)
(5) Small stone of (Daniel 2:44-45)
(6) That was cut out without human hands (Ezekiel 9:5-11, Daniel 2:45)
(7) These are those that escape of them (Isaiah 66:18-19)
(8) Who Gather in the chosen of God into the Kingdom of God (Isaiah 66:18-20, Ezekiel 11:16-20)
(9) These are "Lively stones" (1 Peter 2:5, Ephesians 2:19-22)
(10) This is during the great tribulation (Revelation Chapters 15, 16, and 17:1-13, 13:5-18)
(11) The small Stone/Kingdom of (Daniel 2:44)
(12) Becomes a great mountain (Daniel 2:35)
(13) That causes the world government to fall (Daniel 2:35)
(14) These things come to pass before Yahshua comes/destroys the Heavens, earth, and wicked with fire(Matthew 24:29-31; Micha 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17,26:21,2:9; Zephaniah 1:18,2:22,3:8,1:2-3; Haggi 2:6-7; Malichi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9,2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).

The timeline you purpose doesn't fit with the account given in Revelation unless of course you rearrange all the verses to fit your doctrine.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Aug 5, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
You can assign all manner of things he has the ability to do but never does and that just means you are making him up to be whoever you want. If a man wants to know God, he must take God to be as God describes himself. I asked when God ever created since he rested on the 7th day. You do not have any examples do you? That means you are not limiting the ways of God to what God describes Himself as doing. God rested from creation. That is what the Word of God says. That is what I stand on and something I imagine as you do.Again, you imagne that God can wipe out anyone at anytime, something He does not do. Again you create God out of your own thinking despite what the Bible says are his ways. That is not what Jesus was doing. No one in the Bible who walked with God was afraid that God would destroy them at any minute. This is not who God is. Then we have nothing to fear is hell is merely the hole in the ground where the dead body goes and is destroyed by decay no matter how we lived. Same as hell. That is something to be afraid of. Speaking of the hole in the ground makes no sense. The body is destroyed there no matter what or who one fears. No exceptions for us. Believers' bodies are not strangely preserved in the grave.
Then why do you insist it always means only the grave where the body literally lays and nothing to be afraid of? Hell is the place of the departed souls for those, now, who are send there. IT is not the hole in the ground.
Again, you allow yourself to paint whatever picture you want of what God can do and therefore does. THis is making up GOd to be what you want not using what men who knew Him said He is. No it does not. Those people who know God stand their faith on what God does and what He has said. We do not imagine what God can do but does not do as a basis for faith. Not in the Bible and not in real life. Jesus was warning men to fear God which actually means obey Him because there is final judgment coming where said God will throw men into Hell.
Now I do not pretend to know the details of what happens after this life, but the Bible and personal testimony seems to indicate an immediate removal of the soul to one of two places, hell or heaven. Either angles show up to escort the believers home or the demonic forces come and take the soul. This is something that happens at death when the body is headed for the grave. I do not need to know the details as I am not responsible for any of it.
The destruction is not the grave but hell, a different place. The body is being destroyed in the grave and God is not doing it. It is undergoing such in hell. That is what we are told to be aware of in our choices that God will judge. The list a man can come up with of things God can do but never does is long and probably endless. That is no reason to build anything upon, the imagination of the mind.
That too but the grave is not hell. Jesus is not telling men to be afraid of what happens in the literal grave where the body is destroyed by natural processes, something no man is afraid of but all adults are aware of. You made the whole thing telling us something no one is afraid of, the literal grave.
OK, then Jesus was telling us to be afraid of God who can destroy body and soul in the place of punishment for evil. Why do you keep insisting he is talking about the literal grave? (And I am not the one who seemed not to know words have more than one meaning and places have more than one word describing them..)
Now hell is the grave and now hell is the place of punishment. Make up your mind.
In this case "deny" means not to obey Him. It does not mean one tells other that they are not a Christian.
I think the account of the rich man and Lazarus is the best example.
Ah, so bearing one another's burdens is the law of Christ. Seems easy enough.
Well, after we die and the soul departs the body and goes to one of two places. The fear of God is not really the fear of punishment per se. It is certainly not the fear of hell. (No one is afraid of the grave for their body as I repeatedly said so that can be discounted as a meaning.)

Notice that I am not drawn into the false argument of "can God do xyz" that you propose often. I base my knowledge of God on how God actually acts in the affairs of men. It is called the ways of God in the Bible. Those who walked with God understood them. The questions were always, "how do you act in these matters" not "what can I imagine God can do being all_______(fill in the blank.)" IF you want to know HIm, you cannot make up what you think God has the ability to do but does not as a basis. That is working from the imagination of the mind. No one knows God, the One True, by imagining what He could do if he wanted to do.

1. The new heaven and the New earth he will create that. Again we do not need him to create things right in front of us to know he has the power to do so. And in the same manner we do not need to see a person destroyed body and soul in front of our very eyes to know he has the power to do it. And again he will not destroy at any time and need not fear the act of destrution/punisment in this life, but we should fear God who has this power but chooses to reserve it until an appointed hour.
2. Hell is the grave/sheol/hades and is only ONE of the definitions of the word Geenna. Whenever the word Geenna is speaking of something else(not hell/the grave) the definition is changed from the word Hell to mean either the lake of fire(either figuratively or literally depending on the context) or the valley in Jerusalem. When either of the other two definitions are used Geenna is no longer speaking of Hell/the grave but is sometimes mistranslated as Hell in the bible.

Hell is the grave and is cast into the lake of fire, no person is punished or sentenced to an eternity in hell.
Revelation 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

They are two separate places.

I'm truly sorry you can't see or understand these basic concepts. I will pray for you to understand the truth, and maybe someone else will have better luck getting through to you but since I do not see this bearing any fruit I must leave this discussion before it become nothing more than vain babbling and disputation that leads to no profit.

I love you sister may the Lord God guide you to the truth and light of his word.

ClementofA · Aug 5, 2018

mmksparbud said:
You believe sanity is the soul????

No, sanity is a condition of the soul, in particular the mind. When a person goes insane, they've lost their mind, i.e. it's been ruined or destroyed. Hence my references to king Nebuchadnezzar & the prodigal son.

mmksparbud said:
so you do not think that those that are insane have a soul? You don't think those with down syndrome have a soul??? Schizophrenics do not have souls? As long as they take their medication they have a soul but don't without it???

They have a soul.

mmksparbud said:
The Prodigal wasn't insane, he was greedy and selfish, but he didn't have a soul??

The prodigal son had a soul. But he had lost "his senses":

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!" (Lk.15:17)

He had lost himself:

English Standard Version
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!

Vincent's Word Studies
Came to himself
A striking expression, putting the state of rebellion against God as a kind of madness.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
He came to himself - This is a very expressive phrase. It is commonly applied to one who has been "deranged," and when he recovers we say he has "come to himself." In this place it denotes that the folly of the young man was a kind of derangement - that he was insane. So it is of every sinner. Madness is in their hearts Ecclesiastes 9:3; they are estranged from God, and led, by the influence of evil passions, contrary to their better judgment and the decisions of a sound mind.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/15-17.htm

mmksparbud said:
God took it from him than gave it back as He did Nebby??

God caused king Nebuchadnezzar to lose his sanity. IOW Love Omnipotent ruined/destroyed his soul. Then, after 7 years had passed, God restored his soul back to sanity. You can read all about it in Daniel chapter 4.

34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored.

mmksparbud said:
You can believe that if you want. I never will. God did it for Nebby to show him who is God. Doesn't say a word about loosing his soul, nor does the Prodigal son. It says he was dead and is alive. He was not physically dead, the son never died. He was gone from the father, he was still alive and of a sound mind, he just was being totally selfish. Are all that are greedy and self centered without a soul? At the time you put yourself ahead of everyone else, are you then without a soul?? Neither are those in hell without a soul until they die that 2nd death, at which point their breath goes back to God who gave it and this time, they will never get it back.

See above.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

mmksparbud · Aug 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
No, sanity is a condition of the soul, in particular the mind. When a person goes insane, they've lost their mind, i.e. it's been ruined or destroyed. Hence my references to king Nebuchadnezzar & the prodigal son.

They have a soul.

The prodigal son had a soul. But he had lost "his senses":

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!" (Lk.15:17)

He had lost himself:

English Standard Version
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!

Vincent's Word Studies
Came to himself
A striking expression, putting the state of rebellion against God as a kind of madness.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
He came to himself - This is a very expressive phrase. It is commonly applied to one who has been "deranged," and when he recovers we say he has "come to himself." In this place it denotes that the folly of the young man was a kind of derangement - that he was insane. So it is of every sinner. Madness is in their hearts Ecclesiastes 9:3; they are estranged from God, and led, by the influence of evil passions, contrary to their better judgment and the decisions of a sound mind.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/15-17.htm

God caused king Nebuchadnezzar to lose his sanity. IOW Love Omnipotent ruined/destroyed his soul. Then, after 7 years had passed, God restored his soul back to sanity. You can read all about it in Daniel chapter 4.

34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored.

See above.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Loosing ones senses is not the same as loosing ones soul. As for repenting after the 2nd coming, after death---not happening. When Jesus returns, the decision as to who is saved and who is lost will have already been made. Jesus returns only for the saved, alive and dead resurrected, they go with Him to heaven for the 1000 years. The lost wicked are left dead, the alive wicked are killed at His coming, Satan is bound for those 1000 years---then comes judgement---for the wicked. Judgment for the saved has been made, they are with Jesus, that isn't changing. Judgement for the wicked is their punishment according to their sins, not endless burning and no chance for a 2nd chance.

ClementofA · Aug 5, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Loosing ones senses is not the same as loosing ones soul. As for repenting after the 2nd coming, after death---not happening. When Jesus returns, the decision as to who is saved and who is lost will have already been made. Jesus returns only for the saved, alive and dead resurrected, they go with Him to heaven for the 1000 years. The lost wicked are left dead, the alive wicked are killed at His coming, Satan is bound for those 1000 years---then comes judgement---for the wicked. Judgment for the saved has been made, they are with Jesus, that isn't changing. Judgement for the wicked is their punishment according to their sins, not endless burning and no chance for a 2nd chance.

Thankfully for those who die unsaved, their final destiny won't be determined by you, your opinions or the SDA traditions of men, but by Love Omnipotent.

Is anything too difficult for the LORD? (Gen.18:14a)

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

mmksparbud · Aug 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
Thankfully for those who die unsaved, their final destiny won't be determined by you, your opinions or the SDA traditions of men, but by Love Omnipotent.

Is anything too difficult for the LORD? (Gen.18:14a)

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Nor by anyone else! God is Love, Mercy, and Justice.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ClementofA · Aug 5, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Nor by anyone else! God is Love, Mercy, and Justice.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture says God is love. He has mercy. He performs justice & judgement.

In the worst people which do you think will triumph, judgement or mercy?

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Aug 5, 2018

Emli said:
If you look at the original Greek for Revelation 20:10, you will see that it really means forever and ever. It is the same words that are used in Revelation 11:15 and they mean to the ages of the ages. Will Christ also reign for a short time and then no more? No, for ever and ever, an eternal Dominion, in which we who believe in Him and also live for Him will live forever and ever with Him. In the same way, the devil and all of those who sin will be tormented forever and ever in the Lake of Fire. And that is the righteous judgment of God.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

ClementofA · Aug 5, 2018

Chinchilla said:
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever

1 Tim.2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Does God forget people who end up in Hell?

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