Pope Francis changes Catechism on Death Penalty

Do you favor the change in the catechism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • No

    Votes: 10 71.4%

  • Total voters
    14
Status
Not open for further replies.

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,833
3,410
✟244,735.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
U.S. Religious Groups and the Death Penalty (Pew Research)

According to Pew Research, in 2015 7 Christian bodies opposed capital punishment, 2 supported it, and 2* were undecided. But they cited the Catholic Church as opposing it with a footnote indicating tension within the Church.

*3 if you count the LDS.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well the second largest church and the one we should try the most to mend relations with, the Eastern Orthodox Church, does not seem to have a unified teaching on this topic, and worse case scenario is they view this as a Pope acting in an un-collegiate way.

Also not sure what you mean by “civilized world” it seems like most civilized nations had capital punishment,
I am amazed that you know what the whole "Eastern Orthodox Church" is thinking about Pope Francis and his change to the Catechism. The Orthodox Church does not have a clear and unified teaching, as you say, but I don't think it is necessarily wise for the Catholic Church to follow along with muddled thinking. If it did want to do so, it should follow the lead of other major Christian faiths in opposing capital punishment. Which the Church finally has, Thank God.

Regarding your statement that "most civilized nations had capital punishment", the emphasis should be on the word had, since almost ALL civilized nations no longer have capital punishment, or if they do, they have not executed anyone in many years. The United States is quite alone as the ONE civilized, mostly Christian country, that still executes criminals, and they stand with Communist, Islamic and other totalitarian regimes in continuing that barbaric practice. One can easily verify that from several different resources.

Even though the U.S.A still allows capital punishment, our bishops have come out against it many times over the last few decades, both in general and in individual cases. If what the U.S. bishops were teaching was wrong, the Vatican would have told them so, and told them to stop. Our bishops are the most vocal about it, probably out of necessity, since our country and its laws are so far behind the rest of the civilized world.
 
Upvote 0

Arcangl86

Newbie
Dec 29, 2013
11,157
7,518
✟347,081.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Regarding your statement that "most civilized nations had capital punishment", the emphasis should be on the word had, since almost ALL civilized nations no longer have capital punishment, or if they do, they have not executed anyone in many years. The United States is quite alone as the ONE civilized, mostly Christian country, that still executes criminals, and they stand with Communist, Islamic and other totalitarian regimes in continuing that barbaric practice. One can easily verify that from several different resources.
Japan, South Korea and Singapore are also first world nations that have the death penalty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,833
3,410
✟244,735.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Japan, South Korea and Singapore are also first world nations that have the death penalty.

Right, but they don't count. They're not part of the "civilized world." Neither do all of the Christian groups who uphold capital punishment. They're not "truly Christian." Neither do the Orthodox Churches who allow capital punishment. They're just full of "muddled thinking."

The remarkable part is that the definitions of all these things, the "civilized world," people who are "truly Christian," and people who aren't full of "muddled thinking,"--the definition for each of them is exactly the same: agreement with Martinius on the issue of capital punishment. If you agree with him, then you're civilized, Christian, and clear-thinking. If you don't, you're not.

It's like some fantastic marriage ceremony between petitio principii and ad hominem. :D
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I am amazed that you know what the whole "Eastern Orthodox Church" is thinking about Pope Francis and his change to the Catechism. The Orthodox Church does not have a clear and unified teaching, as you say, but I don't think it is necessarily wise for the Catholic Church to follow along with muddled thinking. If it did want to do so, it should follow the lead of other major Christian faiths in opposing capital punishment. Which the Church finally has, Thank God.
I did not say I knew how the entire Eastern Orthodox Church thinks, I pointed out a worst case scenario, one that goes along with Eastern concerns of a Roman Bishop who acts unilaterally and in a monarchical manner. This is something they have complained about before.
Also the idea to “follow the lead” of other Christian Faiths sounds like a bad idea because the Protestant Faiths are based on heresy. Also we can not pretend that Protestantism is united around this anti-death penalty stance either

Regarding your statement that "most civilized nations had capital punishment", the emphasis should be on the word had, since almost ALL civilized nations no longer have capital punishment, or if they do, they have not executed anyone in many years. The United States is quite alone as the ONE civilized, mostly Christian country, that still executes criminals, and they stand with Communist, Islamic and other totalitarian regimes in continuing that barbaric practice. One can easily verify that from several different resources.
Do you consider Nations that allow unborn children to be torn apart on the whim of the mother to be “civilized”? What about Nations that allow perverts to put on grotesque spectacles called “Pride Parades”? Or Nations that allow blasphemy against our Lord?

I used the past tense not because civilized nations got rid of Capital punishment, but because most civilized Christian Nations have become degenerate
Even though the U.S.A still allows capital punishment, our bishops have come out against it many times over the last few decades, both in general and in individual cases. If what the U.S. bishops were teaching was wrong, the Vatican would have told them so, and told them to stop. Our bishops are the most vocal about it, probably out of necessity, since our country and its laws are so far behind the rest of the civilized world.
Looking at the last few decades is a good start, yes if we limit the Church to the USA since 1988 you are probably right, there is a clear consensus, but what about the Bishops from 1940 to now? 1840 to now? Bishops world wide from 1540 till now, 440 till now? It seems if we view the Church as a whole, this innovation is a small minority. I invite you to join the wider Christian community and support capital punishment as an obligation of the State as a sign of justice
 
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Right, but they don't count. They're not part of the "civilized world." Neither do all of the Christian groups who uphold capital punishment. They're not "truly Christian." Neither do the Orthodox Churches who allow capital punishment. They're just full of "muddled thinking."

Exactly. I must not be civilized, nor truly Christian, and have muddled thinking because I am pro death penalty.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Arcangl86

Newbie
Dec 29, 2013
11,157
7,518
✟347,081.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Right, but they don't count. They're not part of the "civilized world." Neither do all of the Christian groups who uphold capital punishment. They're not "truly Christian." Neither do the Orthodox Churches who allow capital punishment. They're just full of "muddled thinking."

The remarkable part is that the definitions of all these things, the "civilized world," people who are "truly Christian," and people who aren't full of "muddled thinking,"--the definition for each of them is exactly the same: agreement with Martinius on the issue of capital punishment. If you agree with him, then you're civilized, Christian, and clear-thinking. If you don't, you're not.

It's like some fantastic marriage ceremony between petitio principii and ad hominem. :D
To be fair, those countries I mentioned are the only ones besides the US which are considered to be developed countries that have the death penality and not a single one of the them has a Christian majority population.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,833
3,410
✟244,735.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
To be fair, those countries I mentioned are the only ones besides the US which are considered to be developed countries that have the death penality and not a single one of the them has a Christian majority population.

It's a fair point, but he made the comment twice:

I also like it because it puts the Church in synch with the rest of the Christian and civilized world.

Our bishops are the most vocal about it, probably out of necessity, since our country and its laws are so far behind the rest of the civilized world.

I don't read either case as talking only about the Christian part of the civilized world. Included in "civilized world" are non-Christian countries. Of course my interpretation isn't beyond argument.


My point was that it doesn't strike me as helpful or reasonable to insinuate that everyone who disagrees with you are uncivilized muddled thinkers who aren't truly Christian. It hearkens back to point #3 made in this post and extends the potential for disunity even beyond the Catholic Church to all Christians.

I was actually surprised to find so much disagreement with Francis' change. I do hope those who agree with the change are comfortable speaking out. But points can be made in a reasonably irenic way. I managed to strongly state three reasons why I disagree with the change without implying that my opposition is not truly Christian (and all the rest of it). In fact I'm curious to read opposition like Grisez and Brugger on the question despite the fact that I have already read a fair portion of their moral philosophy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. I must not be civilized, nor truly Christian, and have muddled thinking because I am pro death penalty.
Sorry, but you are speaking correctly. Although I believe there is a rule on these forums saying that one poster cannot say another poster is not Christian. So let's leave that out. But not civilized? Sure. Muddled thinking? Absolutely. So let's put it this way: If one follows the Gospels, and the teachings and example of Jesus Christ (which is what we Christians should do, right?) then there is no room for capital punishment. If you disagree, then show me where Jesus says we should execute anyone, and at the same time show us all the ways and times Jesus tells how we should actually treat others, and NOT kill or even harm them.

Pope Francis and the Church is simply coming around to what is God's command to us and what Jesus expects from us. And to where the rest of the Christian world already is.

Note on other countries that still use capital punishment: As Arcangl86 pointed out, the countries that are noted for using capital punishment the most are not majority Christian. Their laws and cultures come from Islam and various eastern religions. There are no majority Christian nations on the list, which includes countries like Iran, Iraq, China, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Numbers of executions are not available for North Korea and Vietnam, but the estimates are high. There are NO Western Christian countries that have capital punishment...except for the good old U.S.A. That's great company we keep, isn't it?
 
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Capital Punishment is in Scriptures and much needed. Of course maybe the victims mean nothing to you. Christ never said one thing about Capital Punishment but He did in the OT. The death penelty is a just punishment for the taking of life and other heinous crimes. I do not care what people say because modernism always creeps in so they say "we have to come up to modern society because modern society is always right" which is a big lie. The more "modern" we become the more we lose ourselves.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...I used the past tense not because civilized nations got rid of Capital punishment, but because most civilized Christian Nations have become degenerate.
Wow! If "most civilized Christian nations have become degenerate" then maybe we should no longer consider them civilized OR Christian. Just a thought.

Looking at the last few decades is a good start, yes if we limit the Church to the USA since 1988 you are probably right, there is a clear consensus, but what about the Bishops from 1940 to now? 1840 to now? Bishops world wide from 1540 till now, 440 till now? It seems if we view the Church as a whole, this innovation is a small minority. I invite you to join the wider Christian community and support capital punishment as an obligation of the State as a sign of justice
Wow! With that kind of thinking (averaging out Church teaching, practice and theology over the millennia), we would still have slavery, racism in various forms and overt sexism (oops I guess we still do have some of that, don't we?). And do the beliefs, teachings and practices of humans over the centuries override the Gospel and Jesus Christ? I certainly hope not.

And the "wider Christian community"?? Sorry, my friend, but the wider Christian, as shown in this thread, does NOT support capital punishment. That is just totally false. Maybe 100 years ago, but not today. And then to twist executing our fellow humans into "a sign of justice" perverts the justice teachings of Jesus. What Gospel are you reading, I wonder?
 
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Capital Punishment is in Scriptures and much needed. Of course maybe the victims mean nothing to you
Show me what the Gospels and Jesus teaches us, and tells us, and commands us. That should be our primary (if not only) source, correct?

Basically, people, we are rationalizing and trying to excuse our inability to follow that Gospel and do what Jesus has commanded us. You can't win this battle, since you're not fighting me, you are fighting our Lord Jesus Christ. And now you're fighting the clear teachings of your own Church. Good luck with that.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,833
3,410
✟244,735.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Show me what the Gospels and Jesus teaches us, and tells us, and commands us.

Where does he condemn capital punishment? You simply haven't presented any arguments. Apparently you think this is a shouting match and if you're loud enough you will win. You are loud, I'll give you that. But all you're doing is disrupting a peaceable thread and bringing disunity to Christians.

Catholics aren't Marcionites, but if you're only interested in the New Testament, how about Paul?

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer (Romans 13:3-4).​
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where does he condemn capital punishment? You simply haven't presented any arguments. Apparently you think this is a shouting match and if you're loud enough you will win. You are loud, I'll give you that. But all you're doing is disrupting a peaceable thread and bringing disunity to Christians.
I would think it would be the responsibility of those who disagree with the Pope and with the teachings of their own (Catholic) church to provide the evidence against the Pope, the teachings, and Jesus. Jesus clearly condemns killing (which in most of our minds would include capital punishment) and in fact goes so far as to say that being angry with our brother violates that commandment. I dislike "Chapter and Verse" arguments but I will list some places where you will find Jesus's teaching about this and about the necessity to follow ALL of the commandments, and of the necessity to love our neighbor if we want to attain God's Kingdom: Matthew 5 (this is really the best example, as Jesus spends a lot of time in the Sermon emphasizing this--sorry, no way to get around it), Matthew 19 & 22 (about loving God and one another, which would likely include NOT executing them), Mark 12, John 14. In the parables Jesus shows us in many different ways what he means by loving our neighbor. In none of these does he say that loving our neighbor includes executing them. He goes beyond that, and says we should treat our neighbor, and even our enemy, positively, with love.

The Letter of James 2 and the first letter of John 4 &5 also reiterate the importance of love and following the commandments, including the one telling us not to kill. If you think that the passage from Romans says we should disobey Jesus, the Gospels, and God's commandments (and that Paul takes precedence over Jesus Christ), then you have a problem. Reading that writing carefully, you will see that Paul implies that all those in authority are good and should be obeyed. We know that is simply not true.

So people, that is a sample of the evidence I can present. Please feel free to present evidence from Jesus and the Gospels that refutes this. Again, I am not the one arguing against the Pope, the Church, and the Gospels. For further edification, I would recommend reading the Gospels and contemplating what Jesus says and does. It is not rocket science. He lays it out quite clearly. Just got to read it and understand it.

I'm out of here. Peace and blessings to all.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Show me what the Gospels and Jesus teaches us, and tells us, and commands us. That should be our primary (if not only) source, correct?

Nope. you have to take the whole Bible. Therein lies your problem you want to divorce the OT from the NT as many do, you see you have to take the whole and not create a idea on just what parts you like. Modernist want to only take part of what God has spoken and make others feel like they are less because they do not accept modernist ideas.

The Church and Christianity do not need to come up to modern ideals and standards rather the world needs to come up to the Church and Christianity.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So people, that is a sample of the evidence I can present. Please feel free to present evidence from Jesus and the Gospels that refutes this. Again, I am not the one arguing against the Pope, the Church, and the Gospels. For further edification, I would recommend reading the Gospels and contemplating what Jesus says and does. It is not rocket science. He lays it out quite clearly. Just got to read it and understand it.

Try looking at the whole Bible not just half
 
  • Agree
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,833
3,410
✟244,735.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
First, I want to thank you for your reply which contains many scriptural references.

I would think it would be the responsibility of those who disagree with the Pope and with the teachings of their own (Catholic) church to provide the evidence against the Pope, the teachings, and Jesus.

That's kind of the topic of the thread, isn't it? What we're talking about is whether the Pope's decision was a good one in light of Church teaching, tradition, and scripture. I'm not arguing against the Church or against Jesus, I am arguing against you. To claim, right off the bat, that I am at odds with the Church or Jesus is a fallacy called 'begging the question.'

Jesus clearly condemns killing (which in most of our minds would include capital punishment) and in fact goes so far as to say that being angry with our brother violates that commandment.

Good. "That commandment." Jesus' teaching on killing always hearkens back to the decalogue, to what Catholics number as the 5th commandment, "Thou shall not kill."

There are very few Catholic, Jewish, or Protestant Biblical scholars who believe the 5th commandment prohibited capital punishment. Indeed the Old Testament law explicitly includes and commands capital punishment (cf. murder: Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17, 21; Genesis 9:6). There is no reason to believe that Jesus, a faithful Jew, disagreed with the entire Jewish tradition up to that point with respect to the 5th commandment.

I dislike "Chapter and Verse" arguments but I will list some places where you will find Jesus's teaching...

While I appreciate the effort, simply throwing out allusions to a half-dozen chapters of the New Testament just isn't conducive to dialogue, nor does it constitute a very strong argument. Beyond that, the principle that I gave above addresses each of your examples. Like a good Jewish teacher, Jesus is highlighting and reiterating things found in the Torah and other parts of the Hebrew Bible. As with the 5th commandment, there is no reason to believe that these teachings from the Torah contradict the Torah (with respect to capital punishment). At the very least, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate such a strange fact. If you want to give a more specific example you are more than welcome. I will address "the best example":

I will list some places where you will find Jesus's teaching about this and about the necessity to follow ALL of the commandments, and of the necessity to love our neighbor if we want to attain God's Kingdom: Matthew 5 (this is really the best example, as Jesus spends a lot of time in the Sermon emphasizing this--sorry, no way to get around it),...

Okay, Matthew 5. Since you mentioned "the necessity to love our neighbor," I assume you are talking about verses 43-48 where Jesus speaks of love of enemies.

In Matthew 5:43 Jesus is quoting Leviticus 19:18 where the Hebrews are instructed to "love your neighbor as yourself." He is saying that this love should be extended even to enemies, even to those persecutors who are despised. This does not mean that the state does not have the power to execute criminals who are guilty of capital crimes. The grounds for execution are not bearing a grudge or despising someone, but rather redressing the disorder caused by the offense and satisfying justice. The OT does not say to execute on the basis of anger or a grudge, it says to execute on the basis of a transgression of God's law, such as murder. No one thinks we need to kill people in order to satisfy a grudge and get revenge. That's a classic strawman.

If you think that the passage from Romans says we should disobey Jesus, the Gospels, and God's commandments (and that Paul takes precedence over Jesus Christ), then you have a problem. Reading that writing carefully, you will see that Paul implies that all those in authority are good and should be obeyed. We know that is simply not true.

You're begging the question again. You're committing a fallacy. I don't think Paul contradicts Jesus, the Gospels, or God's commandments. I don't think Jesus, the Gospel, or God's commandments prohibit the death penalty. That's what we're arguing about, remember? :sigh:

But Paul is pretty clear. I've actually researched this question and the vast majority of Biblical scholars are in agreement that by "the sword" Paul is referring to civil leaders' power to execute criminals in capital cases. Even you seem to agree that this is what Paul is talking about, for you certainly didn't object (you just told us Paul was wrong). So maybe you are the one who thinks Paul contradicts Jesus, the Gospels, and God's commandments? Maybe you are the one who needs to pick and choose who takes precedence: Paul or Jesus? In that case, yes, "You have a problem." Because the Catholic Church teaches that all scripture is inspired. You don't get to just throw away Paul's words about capital punishment--the only words that explicitly deal with capital punishment in the entire New Testament! :neutral:

It is not rocket science.

It's not rocket science, no. In fact our Church has been studying and defending the scriptures for 2,000 years. It would be a pretty big oversight to miss that part of the Bible that so obviously prohibits capital punishment.

Honestly, this whole effort is somewhat silly. No Catholic theologian thinks this question can be easily settled on the basis of scripture. That's naive. It certainly can't be settled in the direction of a prohibition! John Paul II never quoted scripture as a direct support for his position on the death penalty, and I don't believe Francis has either.

It looks like your vague claims about Jesus and the gospels haven't come through for you. Maybe all those people who disagree with you are Christian after all? Maybe they are civilized and clear-thinking, too?

Best,
-Zip
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Wow! If "most civilized Christian nations have become degenerate" then maybe we should no longer consider them civilized OR Christian. Just a thought.

Wow! With that kind of thinking (averaging out Church teaching, practice and theology over the millennia), we would still have slavery, racism in various forms and overt sexism (oops I guess we still do have some of that, don't we?). And do the beliefs, teachings and practices of humans over the centuries override the Gospel and Jesus Christ? I certainly hope not.

And the "wider Christian community"?? Sorry, my friend, but the wider Christian, as shown in this thread, does NOT support capital punishment. That is just totally false. Maybe 100 years ago, but not today. And then to twist executing our fellow humans into "a sign of justice" perverts the justice teachings of Jesus. What Gospel are you reading, I wonder?

Why do you limit the wider Christian community to only those who are alive now? I am looking at all Christians, from the time of the early Church till now. Of course I am not an egalitarian who think all of them should have an equal voice. Looking at the Bishops, Popes, Doctors, and Church Fathers it is clear that the death penalty is fitting and just punishment for some crimes.


Please reread Romans 13:4 if you can not understand this
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Capital Punishment is in Scriptures and much needed. Of course maybe the victims mean nothing to you. Christ never said one thing about Capital Punishment but He did in the OT. The death penelty is a just punishment for the taking of life and other heinous crimes. I do not care what people say because modernism always creeps in so they say "we have to come up to modern society because modern society is always right" which is a big lie. The more "modern" we become the more we lose ourselves.

Modern nations will not execute rapists, murders, and blasphemers, but they will let women murder their unborn children.

Moder secular nations lack all moral authority and are as bad or worse then the pagan empires of old
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tutorman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello, again. Hope you all had a pleasant weekend.

No one thinks we need to kill people in order to satisfy a grudge and get revenge.
Well, isn't that what capital punishment is all about? It is not a question of reformation or even redemption, since we are killing the person. It is not a question of protecting the public, since the killer will be imprisoned. The only reason to execute a criminal is for punishment, for revenge, to assuage our anger.

I read through the intervening posts and could not find anyone providing evidence from the Gospels that Jesus said capital punishment was good. Still seeing lots of evidence, overwhelming evidence actually, to the contrary. I see posters who say stuff like this:
I'm not arguing against the Church or against Jesus
Let's take a look at that, let's do a little checklist.

Pope JPII condemned the use of the death penalty ("cruel and unnecessary") and left the door open only a tiny, tiny crack for its use. CHECK:heavycheck:

Pope Francis has condemned the use of the death penalty and revised the Catechism of the Catholic Church to reflect the teaching of the past 30 years and the overwhelming trend among Catholic and other Christian countries to eliminate capital punishment. CHECK :heavycheck:

The "Church", in the form of the Papacy, of its bishops, of its teachings and proclamations, has over the past several decades consistently condemned the use of capital punishment and called for its complete abolition. CHECK :heavycheck:

Jesus Christ consistently and overwhelmingly teaches against killing others, to love not hate, to forgive, to treat others as we would be treated, and he even equates being angry or carrying a grudge with the sin of killing another human. And he practiced what he preached. CHECK :heavycheck:

Case Closed. Jesus, the Church and humanity wins. I can visualize Jesus looking upon us, smiling and saying, "Finally, after 2000 years, they finally get it."

P.S. That's it for me. See you again, another time, on another thread.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.