Luke 19, Luke 21 and Revelation 18 same event?

Luke 19, Luke 21 and Revelation 18 same event?

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LittleLambofJesus

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Luke 21 mentions the "Temple of the City and stone upon stone" in this passage [as does Matt and Mark]

Luke 21:
5 And certain saying about the Temple, that with goodly stones and devoted things It hath been adorned, He said,
6 ‘These things that ye behold —
days will come, in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.’
20 ‘And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

In Luke 19, the author goes into greater detail concerning Luke 21:20 and the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem [as described by Josephus]:

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her, 42 saying,
"That if Thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee,
and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
44 And they shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

In Revelation, the same greek word #2799 is also used concerning the great City in Revelation:

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried<2896>, weeping<2799> and wailing<3996>, saying, "Alas, alas, that great City!
wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of Her preciousness!
for in one hour is She made desolate.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.........
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly.............

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ;
for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these?"
Zephaniah 1:
15 A day of wrath [is] that day, A day of adversity and distress, A day of waste and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of cloud and thick darkness.
16 A day of trumpet and shouting against the fenced cities, And against the high towers.
After this he commanded that the City should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.
There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection........................

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the City, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Luke 19:44 And they shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --

This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The two in Luke are the same... Jerusalem. The great city in Revelation is speaking of spiritual Babylon...
OK.
What does it mean by a city being a "spiritual Babylon"?


1Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, as does Mark, my son.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-jerusalem-is-mystically-called-sodom-and-egypt.7570002/
Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

In Rev 11:8 Jerusalem is called Sodom because it is where, when Jesus died and arose from the dead He completely wiped out sin as He did in Sodom when He completely destroyed it by fire and brimstone. Analysis of the ashen remains of Sodom, which was rediscovered by Wyatt Archeological Research, has shown that this comparison is accurate since they could not reignite the ashen remains that they recovered from the site of Gomorrah.
Jerusalem is mystically called Egypt because when Jesus died and arose from the dead in Jerusalem He released us from the captivity of death as He by His power alone released Israel, which symbolizes Christians, from captivity in Egypt.
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Bro. James D Albright
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her, 42 saying,

Another interesting phrase used in Revelation is "cast dust on their heads".
The greek word # 5522 used in Reve 18:19 is used in only 1 other verse of the NT, Mar 6:11,

5522. choos kho'-os from the base of 5494; a heap (as poured out), i.e. rubbish; loose dirt:--dust.

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust<5522> on their heads,
and cried<2896>, weeping<2799> and wailing<3996>, saying, "Alas, alas, that great City!

Mark 6:11
And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing of-ye, going out thence, shake off! the dust<5522> the underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them.
Amen I say unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or Gomorrha in a day of judgment than that City". [#5522 used in Revelation 18:19]

There is also another greek word used for "dust" which is used in 5 verses, including Matt and Luke.

2868. koniortos kon-ee-or-tos' from the base of 2867 and ornumi (to "rouse"); pulverulence (as blown about):--dust.
Strong's Number G2868 matches the Greek κονιορτός (koniortos),
which occurs 5 times in 5 verses

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust<2868> from your feet.

Luke 9:5
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust<2868> from your feet for a testimony against them.

Luke 10:11
Even the very dust<2688> of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you:
notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
 
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Douggg

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1Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, as does Mark, my son
.
Are you sure that Peter was not referning to the early Christian church being in Rome? Which the pagans there were incorporating many beliefs and customs from ancient tower of Babel days.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
1Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, as does Mark, my son.
Are you sure that Peter was not referning to the early Christian church being in Rome? Which the pagans there were incorporating many beliefs and customs from ancient tower of Babel days.
Peter is never shown being in RomT in the NY, so I won't speculate.

However, we know Jesus sent Paul to Rome...........

Acts 2:14
and Peter having stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and declared to them, 'Men, Jews! and all those dwelling in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and harken to my sayings,

Act 23:11
And on the following night, the Lord having stood by him, said, 'Take courage, Paul, for as thou didst fully testify the things concerning me at Jerusalem,
so it behoveth thee also at Rome to testify.'

Galatians 1:18
then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to enquire about Peter, and remained with him fifteen days,

There are a few threads on that topic:

What is the evidence of Peter in Rome
What is the evidence of Peter in Rome

Did the Apostle Peter Ever Go To Rome? Part I
Did the Apostle Peter Ever Go To Rome? Part I
 
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dqhall

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Luke 21 mentions the "Temple of the City and stone upon stone" in this passage [as does Matt and Mark]
This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ;
I did not know Jerusalem was laying in ruins c. 325 AD when Eusebius published. I read that the city was destroyed c. 70 AD and again c. 132-135 AD during the Bar Kochba Revolt.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I did not know Jerusalem was laying in ruins c. 325 AD when Eusebius published. I read that the city was destroyed c. 70 AD and again c. 132-135 AD during the Bar Kochba Revolt.
I haven't read much about Eusebius.
But that leads me to ask how long it took to clean up all the rubble from the City and Temple after that destruction.
I haven't been able to find any info on that.

I don't know if Ezekiel 39 is showing the 70ad cleanup of Jerusalem or not, but I do find this interesting:

Ezekiel 39:
12 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them and will be renowned for it on the day I display My glory, declares the Lord GOD.
14 And men will be employed to continually pass through the land to cleanse it by burying the invaders who remain on the ground.
At the end of the seven months they will begin their search..........


17 And as for you, son of man, this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Call out to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field: Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great feast on the mountains of Israel.
There you will eat flesh and drink blood.

Revelation 19:17

And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven,
"hither! be ye being gathered/sun-agesqe <4863> (5744)! into the Supper of the Great God.
18 That Ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Zeph 1:17/Ezekiel 39:19]
 
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DavidPT

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Luke 21 mentions the "Temple of the City and stone upon stone" in this passage [as does Matt and Mark]

Luke 21:
5 And certain saying about the Temple, that with goodly stones and devoted things It hath been adorned, He said,
6 ‘These things that ye behold —
days will come, in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.’

20 ‘And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

In Luke 19, the author goes into greater detail concerning Luke 21:20 and the 70 ad destruction of Jerusalem [as described by Josephus]:


Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments/eklausen <2799> (5656) on Her, 42 saying,
"That if Thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee,

and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
44 And they shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in thee,

and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

In Revelation, the same greek word #2799 is also used concerning the great City in Revelation:

Revelation 18:19

And they cast dust on their heads, and cried<2896>, weeping<2799> and wailing<3996>, saying, "Alas, alas, that great City!
wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of Her preciousness!

for in one hour is She made desolate.

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.........

The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly.............

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ;

for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these?"

After this he commanded that the City should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.
There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection........................

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the City, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.


Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --

This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"



All it takes is the following verse to debunk that Revelation 18 has already been fulfilled.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Whatever city is being meant here, when verse 21 is fulfilled, it will be as if this city never even existed. If one takes this to be meaning Jerusalem and what happened to it in 70 AD, is the following then true today still----and shall be found no more at all? Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty certain the literal city of Jerusalem can still be found, even in our day and time.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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All it takes is the following verse to debunk that Revelation 18 has already been fulfilled.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Whatever city is being meant here, when verse 21 is fulfilled, it will be as if this city never even existed. If one takes this to be meaning Jerusalem and what happened to it in 70 AD, is the following then true today still----and shall be found no more at all? Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty certain the literal city of Jerusalem can still be found, even in our day and time.
Lot of OC Hebrew symbolism in Revelation.....

Hebrew 12:18

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;
19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8

And the second messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea,.......

Matthew 21:21
Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

 
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DavidPT

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Lot of OC Hebrew symbolism in Revelation.....

Hebrew 12:18

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;
19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them,

Revelation 8:8

And the second messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea,.......

Matthew 21:21
Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]



Have you ever tried to interpret Revelation 18 in light of Jeremiah 50-51?

In Jeremiah 50, Babylon is not meaning Jerusalem is it?

Jeremiah 51:63 And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates:
64 And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

Isn't this the prophecy that is fulfilled per Revelation 18?

Notice something here.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

and God hath remembered her iniquities. I would think God is likely remembering iniquities from ages ago, and not just current ones.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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OK.
What does it mean by a city being a "spiritual Babylon"?

It means it exhibits the characteristics of Babylon... rebellious against God. Just as the city that is spiritual known as Sodom and Egypt points to Paris, France during the revolution. They were both atheistic (Egypt) and licentious (Sodom)
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Which the pagans there were incorporating many beliefs and customs from ancient tower of Babel days.

WOW that is the best statement that I have seen you post in this forum. Please follow through with that thought pattern of incorporting pagan beliefs into Christianity. You will be surprised where it leads you in GODS WORD.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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1Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, as does Mark, my son.
Are you sure that Peter was not referning to the early Christian church being in Rome?
Which the pagans there were incorporating many beliefs and customs from ancient tower of Babel days.
What about paganism within Judaism?

http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt07.html

The commonest statements of all Jewish authorities attribute many customs and doctrines of “Judaism” to Persian, Babylonian, Assyrian sources. The leading paganisms of all the centuries have been gathered up and treasured by Pharisaic Talmudism.
The long stay of Pythagoras in Babylon, his number and letter magic; the transmigration of souls out and back into the “En Sof;” procreation being the hub and center of the universe,
a man’s first duty being to get souls out of “guf” and if this is impossible to keep on copulating in honor of the procreative powers; the selflessness of the universe; the multitude of spirits in charge of all functions; Sun-worship; veneration of the Moon; man as a spark of the divine capable of pushing the universe with his own illuminated inflated “knowing” self (Lucifer means “light-bearer”) — all this forms the old Nature religions of paganism, seeking power through abracadabra, invocations, fasting and ecstasies to attract the spirits of the unseen world.
It is all as old as the Old Testament, and as current.

So-called “Judaism” is nothing but Babylonian Talmudic Pharisaism, which at base is crass paganism, pantheistic atheism, a conglomeration of all the forms of paganism concocted through the centuries. New descriptions concocted for this very old satanism, such as “immanence” (Spinoza); “emanation” (Talmudic Cabala); “dialectical materialism” (Marx) merely dress up old pagan concepts.

What the Cross means to Christianity, “Babylon the Great” means to the cult of Judaistic Pharasaism.

Babylon was the “Vatican,” center, and spiritual homeland of Pharasaic Babylonian Talmudism, as Chief Rabbi Hertz has put it, from 586 B.C. to 1040 A.D., when the last of the Talmud “academies” moved out into Europe, Asia and Africa from Babylonia. (Exhibits 33-34) The “glory” of Babylon is referred to in the Talmud. (Rodkinson introduction, Exhibit 18).............................
 
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Original Happy Camper

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What about paganism within anti-Christian Judaism?

I was addressing this post about Christianity

Douggg said:
Are you sure that Peter was not referning to the early Christian church being in Rome? Which the pagans there were incorporating many beliefs and customs from ancient tower of Babel days.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I was addressing this post about Christianity

Douggg said:
Are you sure that Peter was not referning to the early Christian church being in Rome? Which the pagans there were incorporating many beliefs and customs from ancient tower of Babel days.
Ahh..I see that now....I am going to edit my post.......
 
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dqhall

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I haven't read much about Eusebius.
But that leads me to ask how long it took to clean up all the rubble from the City and Temple after that destruction.
I haven't been able to find any info on that.

I don't know if Ezekiel 39 is showing the 70ad cleanup of Jerusalem or not, but I do find this interesting:

Ezekiel 39:
Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem and erected a Temple to Jupiter on the Temple Mount. The Jews followed a false Messiah named Bar Kochba and rebelled. They were not successful. I do not know much about this second rebellion, but many Jews were killed or enslaved and sold in various parts of the Roman empire. Jews were not allowed to live in Jerusalem. The Gentile churches continued although they were greatly hindered as Christianity was illegal until the time of Constantine. Many Christians were arrested and executed. Eusebius described many persecutions that happened to Christians during the first three centuries of the religion. He also documented the spread of Christianity to distant parts of the Roman empire and the diligence of Christians who eventually won their freedom.

There was also a 6th century BC Babylonian invasion that destroyed the Jewish Temple and resulted in the deportation of many Jews to Babylon. During the Persian empire, Jews were free to return to Jerusalem. The Book of Nehemiah describes their taking up residence in Jerusalem. A Jewish community remained in Babylon (Iraq) until 1948 when Israel was formed. Jews from Babylon and all over the world returned to Israel after the Jews won a war of independence against Great Britain.
 
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