Predestination is based on Free Will

Doveaman said:

Yep.
Yep.
Yep.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned....'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?'" But we have the mind of Christ." -- (1 Cor 2:14-3:1)

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Yep.
Except we , you, I , they, whoever
still do not have anywhere near what you posted in the post I replied to "full comprehension" as if any one of our "comprehension" was even close to Yahweh's.....

Even when we have the "mind of Christ", it is so limited today (and most certainly after resurrected also, though not as much) compared to (as if! )
Yahweh's unlimited eternal uncreated 'mental'(as if limited or described!) complexity (from our viewpoint)

Doveaman said:

But our eternal destiny only has two possible outcomes which God has already determined, life or death, eternal glory or eternal destruction, and those two outcomes are dependent on the free choices we are making now, free choices that God has already foreseen.

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That is not predestination that is free will choice. Predestination isn't that God foreknew what decisions you would make. Predestination states God determined what those choices would be that you make. That no matter what you choose you have chosen what God already wanted you to choose. As I read the comments you make I think you are confusing God's foreknowledge of when did God know what you would do and choose and Predestination of God deciding what those choices would be. In Philosophy of Religion the two terms are in ways used to explain each other but actually they are different. In other words you are comparing apples to oranges.

Doveaman said:

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

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Your entire argument rests on one Scripture and one definition of "foreknew", I hope you understand that, including an unbiblical assumption of "free" choices, choices yes, free no, not according to Scripture, and there are many Scriptures which make it abundantly clear. Not to mention the verse includes "those whom", and whom does God not foreknow in the sense you suggest? Then there is the problem of the Creator twiddling His thumbs not intervening or imposing His free will, submitting His Sovereign free will, to the will of His creatures, hoping someone will choose Him over satan. In the scenario of God peering through the corridors of time observing choices, "free will" is an idol, God abandoning His throne, and with "free will" the little gods shall have to exercise their free will to come into relationship and communion with big daddy God. Further still, this "free will" cannot escape an omniscient God who knows ALL future choices of ALL of His creatures, and since God in His nature is immutable and this extends to His knowledge, God cannot be taught or learn choices His creatures will make in the future. He has always known, from all eternity, before the creation of the world. So, "foreknew" even in the sense you suggest, is not as helpful to your theology as you might think in relationship to choices and responsibility, it actually creates even greater theological problems.

Loren T. said in post #38:

[Re: Romans 8:28-39]

Paul is trying to encourage us that God will not forsake us regardless.

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God will forsake us if we wrongly employ our free will to forsake Him without repentance (2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, Romans 8:28-39 applies only to "them who are the called according to God's purpose" (Romans 8:28), that is, elect people (Romans 8:33); and only to those elect who "love God" (Romans 8:28), meaning obey him (1 John 5:3). Elect people, even after they become Christians, can wrongly employ their free will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving Him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12).

Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of Christians' own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that Christians themselves can wrongly employ their free will, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says: "neither death, nor life", it means that neither Christians' continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless Christians wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

Loren T. said in post #38:

Paul isn't telling us that God randomly picks some to be saved and some to be damned.

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That's what Paul tells us subsequently in Romans 9:11-24.

Doveaman said in post #44:

God's foreknowledge of Pharaoh's stubbornness was also the reason God raised Pharaoh up to power in Egypt . . .

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Note that God had a hand in Pharaoh's stubbornness (Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 7:13, Exodus 9:12, Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27, Exodus 11:10, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:8).

That is why Paul uses the example of Pharaoh as a type for all nonelect people (Romans 9:18), who are made that way (Romans 9:19-22, Proverbs 16:4).

bling said in post #45:

Why is all the blame for those who are lost God's fault?

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It isn't. For they are lost because of their own free-willed sins (James 1:13-15).

bling said in post #45:

There is no "credit" to be taken for humbly accepting pure sacrificial undeserved Charity.

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That's right, with regard to initial salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9).

bling said in post #45:

Do you give "credit", for a job will done, to a beggar who humbly accepts undeserved charity?

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Regarding "a job well done", that gets into ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21).

But it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

brocke said:

That is not predestination that is free will choice. Predestination isn't that God foreknew what decisions you would make. Predestination states God determined what those choices would be that you make. That no matter what you choose you have chosen what God already wanted you to choose. As I read the comments you make I think you are confusing God's foreknowledge of when did God know what you would do and choose and Predestination of God deciding what those choices would be. In Philosophy of Religion the two terms are in ways used to explain each other but actually they are different. In other words you are comparing apples to oranges.

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Predestination does not have to get down to each individual, but God can predestine to save all those who accept His charity without being specific. Foreknowledge of each individuals choices is not the same as predestination.

Bible2+ said:

I


Regarding "a job well done", that gets into ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21).

But it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

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I have no problem understanding that the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is required for the Christian faith.

Anything done righteously was done because the person allowed the Holy Spirit to do it through them.

DEFINITIONS ARE IMPORTANT (A title is intended, not shouting by the caps)

Doveaman said:

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

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FOREKNOWLEDGE ---- This term is simply the term for knowledge of a person. In the LXX, the same word is used for when Adam "knew" Eve. The only difference is that a prefix is attached to the word which means "before." This foreknowledge is not intended to be a crystal ball to look into the future and see who is going to have faith, and not even a look into the future to see good works. It is a pre-loving knowledge of a person. While the word is not used in Romans 9:12 this is a good illustration of the concept of foreknowledge... "it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." God foreknew Jacob, and he fore loved Jacob and chose to bless Jacob in election due to his foreknowing love for Jacob.

Generally when people point out that predestination is based upon foreknowledge, they assume that it is foreseen faith. That is not in the meaning of the term "foreknowledge."

FREE CHOICES OR FREE WILL --- The Bible speaks frequently on the will of man. Anyone can easily quote passages with the term "will" in it (referring to Human will). People can point to men making choices in the Bible. People can point to passages where God requests that people make a choice, the most famous is the quote from Joshua. Then they assume that human choice means the same thing as free will. That is totally Non-sequitur.

I find it interesting that the bible never once speaks of "free will" when referring to humans. The only time it uses the term "free will" is with reference to the OT sacrificial offerings called "free will offerings." The Bible never uses the term with reference to human will. Now some will use the trinity argument here that the Bible never uses the term "trinity." However, all I am saying, is that it should call for a biblical investigation into the term "free will" and also to more finely define the term.

John MacArthur one said "we have the free will to choose any path of sin we desire." Johnny Mac is playing with the term. He uses the term in a way which keeps a doctrine of orthodoxy within the meaning of the term. That doctrine is the doctrine of original sin. This goes back to the original free willer, Pelagius. Pelagius defined the term "free will" in a way to deny original sin and the fall of man. Many in these threads would be Pelagian in their doctrine. McArthur uses the term in a very non-Pelagian sense because he says free will can be used to determine what path of sin is chosen, but no man can choose Christ without regeneration is a concept behind McArthurs words.

Doveaman said:

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

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This again is comparing apples to oranges. Jeremiah's choice to become a prophet is not the same thing as his choice to trust God for justification. This is a long story and I am going to skip this, but say that this passage in Jeremiah has more to do with him being a "like Moses prophet." As far as prophetic choices, did Jonah choose to go to Nineveh? Jonah's choice was Tarsus, God did not care what Jonah chose. God chose Jonah to go to Nineveh and Jonah could choose to refuse, but to Nineveh he would go. In this case, God may of known the free choice of man, but God chose to completely violate Jonah's choice. Where is free will there? Who won?

Doveaman said:

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

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I must compliment you for even attempting to use Romans 9 at all.

Nevertheless, if God's predestination is based upon peeking into the future to see who has faith, then why would verse 16 say... "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy?" In verse 19 the text says "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?" Would not your claim to understand the will of God that Gods choice is limited to those who first choose him in faith be a violation of this very verse?

If any text is scripture loudly proclaims the free will of God, it is this text. If man has totally free will, then God is not sovereign.

Doveaman said:

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

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I have to point out that you have conviently edited out the goal of being predestined in your last statement. Those last words establish your position ONLY because of your editing the last words.

The actual scripture which you more honestly quoted above, but ignored it, says we, the believers, are predestined to become like Jesus. Does not mentioned heaven or hell. And it doesn’t say it’s based on foreknowledge of our choices which really is circular thinking. (He chose us because He knew we would choose him.)

His choices in our individual lives are always based on our choices and responses. We make choices and He makes choices based on our choices. This is the biblical pattern.

Now Jeremiah was called from birth but could have declined. Not all who were called of God fulfilled their calling. Saul was called but was later rejected because of choices he made, clearly.

So you haven’t really established your theology which is destroyed by the whole of scripture without editing.

Doveaman said:

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

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God wants our love and fellowship.

“I want you to show love, not offer sacrifices. I want you to know me more than I want burnt offerings.”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭6:6‬

Love is a gift given freely not preprogrammed.

Bible2+ said:

Note that God had a hand in Pharaoh's stubbornness (Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 7:13, Exodus 9:12, Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27, Exodus 11:10, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:8).

That is why Paul uses the example of Pharaoh as a type for all nonelect people (Romans 9:18), who are made that way (Romans 9:19-22, Proverbs 16:4).

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Reading Exodus chapter 1 is worthwhile, interesting, crucial...--

Pharaoh was enslaving Israel and then trying to murder babies in mass before God hardened his heart....

Doveaman said:

The entire OP makes my point, not just that last statement.

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The last quote reveals a willingness to edit the Bible to suit your position. It was very important which is why it was last.

The last statement was edited intentionally to make the point that all people are predestined, not just Christians.

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You only get this understanding when you edit the statment. It says we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Now this can only apply to believers. It does not mention eternal destinies but what we become in this life. It is not addressing salvation of any man.

Some are predestined for glory, and some for destruction:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

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You probably do not notice that God is enduring something which is odd if he predestined men to be like that which he has to endure.

Time travels in a circle with God:

It's difficult to think of God and not think circular.

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Not from what I read. Genesis happened and goes linearly forward. No repeats. There is no repeat of the flood coming. There is no man who becomes a nation. There is no nation to whom God gives his laws and blessing as was in Israel. The old covenant is gone and will never return. Jesus is not continually coming back in human form to live again. The earth is moving forward changing nations as the gospel goes out. IT is not at all circular.

He predestined us because He knew we would choose him.

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I know the theology. It requires one to edit the Bible to believe this.

That is, he predestined us to be chosen because he knew we would choose him:

"In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will" -- (Eph 1:11)

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Where does it say becasue he knew we would choose him? Again you ignore what we are predestined for, that is to be like Jesus. Not heaven nor hell but to be like Jesus. This you edit out.

His choice to predestined us is also based on our individual choices and responses.

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Well, how far we fulfilled that predestined goal, to be like Jesus, is based on our individual choices and responses true. But this is not because of the forekowledge of God.

He also makes choices based on our future choices:

"Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God." -- (Deut 20:17-18)

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That is not based on future choices. Proverbs also tells us the bad company ruins good morals. This is the same sort of wisdom. This is not the foreknowledge of God at work.

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But Jeremiah didn't decline, and God foreknew he wouldn't.

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You will tie yourself up in mental knots if you maintian this. This is no where in any text nor speaks against the men who chose not to obey God.

Saul was called based on the choice Israel made, and he was rejected based on the choices he made.

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Exactly. This is how it is in the ways of God. God makes choices. Men make choices. God makes other choices based on our choices. None of this is based on foreknowledge. The chances in life are real.

God foreknew that the outcome of Saul's calling would be a failure, and David was predestined to be king even before Saul had failed:

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Uh, Shiloh is Jesus, not David.

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people." -- (Gen 49:10)

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This certainly does not describe David.

The scepter is a reference to the kingly dynasty of Judah's descendants, beginning with David and ending with Christ.

These events were prophesied by God long before Saul, a descendant of Benjamin, was called to be King.

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But it does not address Saul at all. It is talking about Jesus as you agree. You are changing it making it say something that is actually against what the Bible says. It says that God decided to remove the throne from Saul when he chose to do that which was forbidden, not because of some forekowledge. There is no foreknowledge spoken of in the Bible on this matter. You assume this.

God obviously foreknew that Saul's dynasty would fail and David's dynasty would be established.
I think you are the one doing the editing.

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No, you are adding God doing something because of foreknowledge instead of what it actually says is the reason. There is no verse that says God foreknew this in the way you speak of it. You are adding that. That passage speaks of Christ, not David and certainly not Saul.

Now, the scepter was not in the hands of Judah at the time of Saul. That started with David after Saul. Continued until the nations went into captivity and there was no king as far as I recall. You agree Shiloh was Jesus and obedience is certainly given to him by the people, his people that is. So Saul is not a part of that prophesy as Judah was not having the scepter yet.

bling said:

I have no problem understanding that the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is required for the Christian faith.

Anything done righteously was done because the person allowed the Holy Spirit to do it through them.

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Well, this sounds humble but it really is ignoring the real choices we make. The Holy Spirit guides us but we can refuse or we can obey. The obedience sometimes goes very much against our desires so it can be a real struggle. I do not see the process as us "allowing" the Holy Spirit as though we were passive and he was taking over. I think we cooperate meaning obey. That is a more accurate description. I do not recall the Bible refering to that as "allowing" in a passive kind of way.

bling said in post #68:

Anything done righteously was done because the person allowed the Holy Spirit to do it through them.

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2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic, because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Don Maurer said in post #69:

I find it interesting that the bible never once speaks of "free will" when referring to humans.

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What is meant by free will is that God lets people choose what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20; 1 Chronicles 28:9; 1 Peter 5:2, Philemon 1:14, Genesis 24:8).

While God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).