Matt 24:20 Pray your flight not be on a sabbath or in winter

mkgal1 said:

It seems that to make Jesus' words about His second coming is what's taking the passage out of context. In this discourse....He's been referring to events that will happen within that generations lifetime (and is warning THEM to be watchful).

IOW....the assumption seems to be that any of this is about His second coming.

I used to believe the way you do (up until only a few months ago)....and it's actually amazing (and hopeful) to me just how much better Scripture flows together with the understanding that Jesus was warning 1st century followers (and His prophecy was fulfilled....and many were saved from death and destruction).

Click to expand...

In your mind then, per the Discourse, nothing in the Discourse involves context having to do with the 2nd coming?

The coming in Matthew 24:30, you do realize is after the trib of those days, right? What was that coming in regards to then? If the trib of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD to some of you, the coming in Matthew 24:30 would be meaning after, and not during the events of 70 AD instead. What was that coming in regards to then?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


BTW, if you used to believe similar to what I believe up until a few months ago, you apparently must have had a poor understanding of what you formerly believed since you ended up trading that in for something far less believable. No one is ever going to convince me that there is no 2nd coming context in the Discourse. IOW I'm not falling for that deception. But I'm not claiming there is no first century context in the Discourse then, because there most certainly is. But there is also 2nd coming context in it as well.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Before the fall, before the sin,
do you think Yahweh did not talk freely with Adam and Chavah ?

Click to expand...

I typically don’t like to make assumptions about things that are not mentioned in the Bible. God definitely did converse with Adam and Eve. The commands given to them are mentioned in the Bible. Any command that is not mentioned has no evidence to back it up. Was the sabbath commanded? I don’t know, it doesn’t say. Was Adam commanded to draw a map of the garden? I don’t know, it doesn’t say.

mmksparbud said:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Click to expand...

God rested in the verse above, instead of Adam and Eve.

At that point Adam and Eve lived in a world where everything was provided for them.
What work were they doing before the fall?

Do you think Adam could have committed adultery, before the fall?
Who would he have committed it with?

Could they honor their mother, since they had no mother?

Have you cut Exodus 34:28, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3 out of your Bible so that you can make your doctrine work?

.

QUOTE="claninja, post: 73024810, member: 394256"]I typically don’t like to make assumptions about things that are not mentioned in the Bible. God definitely did converse with Adam and Eve. The commands given to them are mentioned in the Bible. Any command that is not mentioned has no evidence to back it up. Was the sabbath commanded? I don’t know, it doesn’t say. Was Adam commanded to draw a map of the garden? I don’t know, it doesn’t say.[/QUOTE

People today are not used to talking with Yahweh.
Talk with Him for a few months, daily, frequently, and listen to Him all the time and "IF you hear His Voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the wilderness...... and perished" .......

His Son Jesus was born, lived as a man, died a horrible death, was buried ,
and was raised from the dead by the Father in heaven,
never to die again.....

mmksparbud said:

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man,

Click to expand...

Yes, and we all long for this rest

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 4:11&version=ESV

mmksparbud said:

Please state a verse where God told Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob to forget about the Sabbath

Click to expand...

Argument from ignorance logical fallacy.

mmksparbud said:

Why would the gentiles know about the sabbath?

Click to expand...

Exactly, they wouldn’t if there was no command. So where is the command prior to moses and the Israelites?

Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
Matthew 28:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:1&version=ESV

There were punishments for idolatry, dishonoring parents, murder, stealing, lying, covering prior to moses and the Israelites. If the sabbath was a command, what was the punishment for not keeping it prior to moses and the Israelites?

mmksparbud said:

God instituted it at creation week, what makes you think that nobody else kept it?

Click to expand...

God only blessed the 7th and made it holy. The sabbath was not made known until Moses and the israelites

and you made known to them your holy Sabbath and commanded them commandments and statutes and a law by Moses your servant.
Nehemiah 9:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Nehemiah 9:14&version=ESV

claninja said:

Doesn't the great tribulation only last for a time, times, and half a time or ~42 months? The Jewish-Roman war started in about mid 66 ad and the temple was then destroyed in 70ad (about 42 months). Was Israel's power scattered after the temple was destroyed? I would say so.
Daniel 12: 7 After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these (includes great tribulation)

This would match revelation's "nations/gentiles trampling Jerusalem for 42 months"
Revelation 11:2 and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months;

But this all depends if a time, times, and half a time actually mean ~42 months. If it means 2000+ years, then a solid case can be made that the great tribulation lasts a long time.

However, this also means that people written in the book have been escaping for the last 2000 years.
Daniel 12:1 such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book

Click to expand...

Every reference to the 42 months or 3 1/2 years does not always refer to the same time period.

The ancient Hebrew calendar was based on 7 year cycles.

The 42 months is a division of the the 7 year cycle, since it is half of the 7 year cycle.

This is why it is often found in scripture.

All of this is detailed in the book "The Atonement Clock", by Christian Gedge.

It is the best book I have ever seen on the Hebrew calendar.

.

claninja said:

If the sabbath was a command, what was the punishment for not keeping it prior to moses and the Israelites?

Click to expand...

Dis-fellowship? Lack of or less of Yahweh's Blessing ?
Remember prior to Moses, prior to the flood especially?,
the whole world rebelled, did not keep nor honor the Sabbath of Yahweh, nor His Word,
except for a few who Yahweh said were righteous and who He saved , as far as we know from His Word.

Everyone Yahweh calls righteous honors His Word willingly and joyfully ! YES !

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Perhaps even just online search "high sabbaths" and "feast sabbaths" or other similar search terms ........

Click to expand...

I couldn’t find any days that are not the 7th day referred to as the sabbath. The holy assemblies on feast days are called miqra

claninja said:

I couldn’t find any days that are not the 7th day referred to as the sabbath. The holy assemblies on feast days are called miqra

Click to expand...

Just searched "high sabbath" top hits >>>>
High Sabbaths - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sabbaths
Jump to Biblical rest days - High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual Biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31–42.
Is a 'high day' a weekly Sabbath? - Church of the Great God
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/...sr/.../Is-high-day-weekly-Sabbath.htm
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked ...

========================== (untested today) ====

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfmHowever, these are NOT the only sabbaths. Besides the weekly sabbaths there are the High Sabbaths related to the Hebrew Feasts (or Festivals), described in ...

John 19:31 It was the day of Preparation, and the next day was a High ...
biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm
It was the day of Preparation, and the next day was a High Sabbath. ... on the cross on the Sabbath--for that Sabbath was a high day--asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they might be taken away. New American Standard Bible

What is the high Sabbath? - eBible.com
https://ebible.com/questions/11230-what-is-the-high-sabbath
Dec 23, 2017 - There were two high sabbath days associated with the feast of ... As I understand it, "high Sabbaths" in the Bible did not necessarily fall on the ...

BABerean2 said:

Every reference to the 42 months or 3 1/2 years does not always refer to the same time period.

The ancient Hebrew calendar was based on 7 year cycles.

The 42 months is a division of the the 7 year cycle, since it is half of the 7 year cycle.

This is why it is often found in scripture.

All of this is detailed in the book "The Atonement Clock", by Christian Gedge.

It is the best book I have ever seen on the Hebrew calendar.

.

Click to expand...

So would you say the time, times, and half a time in Daniel 12 is 42 months? Or longer?

claninja said:

So would you say the time, times, and half a time in Daniel 12 is 42 months? Or longer?

Click to expand...

I take it to be a 42 month, end-time period.
.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Just searched "high sabbath" top hits >>>>
High Sabbaths - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sabbaths
Jump to Biblical rest days - High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual Biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31–42.
Is a 'high day' a weekly Sabbath? - Church of the Great God
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/...sr/.../Is-high-day-weekly-Sabbath.htm
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked ...

Click to expand...

High sabbath is an English translation

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Just searched "high sabbath" top hits >>>>
High Sabbaths - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sabbaths
Jump to Biblical rest days - High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual Biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31–42.
Is a 'high day' a weekly Sabbath? - Church of the Great God
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/...sr/.../Is-high-day-weekly-Sabbath.htm
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked ...

========================== (untested today) ====

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfmHowever, these are NOT the only sabbaths. Besides the weekly sabbaths there are the High Sabbaths related to the Hebrew Feasts (or Festivals), described in ...

John 19:31 It was the day of Preparation, and the next day was a High ...
biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm
It was the day of Preparation, and the next day was a High Sabbath. ... on the cross on the Sabbath--for that Sabbath was a high day--asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they might be taken away. New American Standard Bible

What is the high Sabbath? - eBible.com
https://ebible.com/questions/11230-what-is-the-high-sabbath
Dec 23, 2017 - There were two high sabbath days associated with the feast of ... As I understand it, "high Sabbaths" in the Bible did not necessarily fall on the ...

Click to expand...

high sabbaths are not mentioned in the Old Testament. They are called holy convocations.

The sabbath in John 19 appear to be a literal sabbath, 7th day. It also appears that the sabbath was a great one.

claninja said:

The sabbath in John 19 appear to be a literal sabbath, 7th day. It also appears that the sabbath was a great one.

Click to expand...

It was/is a "high day" as written, in line with all Scripture, not the 7th day sabbath.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It was/is a "high day" as written, in line with all Scripture, not the 7th day sabbath.

Click to expand...

It was THE sabbath, as written. Which was also a great one as written:

Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.
John 19:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 19:31&version=ESV

The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that sabbath day was a great one,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away.
John 19:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 19:31&version=YLT

BABerean2 said:

God rested in the verse above, instead of Adam and Eve.

At that point Adam and Eve lived in a world where everything was provided for them.
What work were they doing before the fall?

Do you think Adam could have committed adultery, before the fall?
Who would he have committed it with?

Could they honor their mother, since they had no mother?

Have you cut Exodus 34:28, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3 out of your Bible so that you can make your doctrine work?

.

Click to expand...

The original word is cease, not rest.

2 and~he~will~much~FINISH(Verb) (וַיְכַל / wai'khal) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(Verb) (עָשָׂה / a'sah) and~he~will~CEASE(Verb) (וַיִּשְׁבֹּת / wai'yish'bot) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) from~ALL (מִכָּל / mi'kol) BUSINESS~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(Verb) (עָשָׂה / a'sah)

and Elohiym finished in the seventh day his business which he did, and he ceased in the seventh day from all his business which he did,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mtt/G2.html

I have the same bible as you, you seem to be quoting KJV----I also have other translations, but they are the same translations available to all---I do not have my own bible. As far as I know only Thomas Jefferson and Joseph Smith have their own bible--and JW.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
I don't believe they actually started to work the garden yet, though---

Sabbath is not only about not working. It is a day set aside to commune with God and think of only spiritual matters--to reset the mind and body--that is why Jesus said it was made for man. He set it aside for the health of both body and mind of man. Not his own. It is Jesus that instituted it at creation, He is the creator of all things. It points to Him.
Adam and Eve had a pretty hectic first day--not in terms of physical labor though. They have just woken up to a fantastic sight of a whole world made for them, they have encountered all sorts of animals and plant life that they have seen for the first time, they have encountered a Creator that made them and everything else. They have encountered each other. Adam named the animals. Heck--talk about overload!!! That 1st Sabbath was to draw Adam and Eve away from the sensory and mental overload of just coming to life and seeing and touching everything and to the one that gave them, and everything else, that life. That first Sabbath was spend in getting to know their Creator God, Friend.

The bible does not state any other thing except the Sabbath and staying away from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

mmksparbud said:

The bible does not state any other thing except the Sabbath and staying away from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Click to expand...

My Bible says their commandment was to stay away from the tree.

I find no command for them to keep the Sabbath day.

There is no commandment to keep a Sabbath day before Exodus.

.

mkgal1 said:

It seems that to make Jesus' words about His second coming is what's taking the passage out of context. In this discourse....He's been referring to events that will happen within that generations lifetime (and is warning THEM to be watchful).

IOW....the assumption seems to be that any of this is about His second coming.

I used to believe the way you do (up until only a few months ago)....and it's actually amazing (and hopeful) to me just how much better Scripture flows together with the understanding that Jesus was warning 1st century followers (and His prophecy was fulfilled....and many were saved from death and destruction).

Click to expand...

Very good mkgal1.