LDS Mormon Prejudice against Mormons!

XRho

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Funny, I thought the thread topic was how discrimination is not Christian:

I think Christians have to discriminate often. Between right and wrong. Between truth and falsehood. Between what actions are loving and what actions are not. And per your discussion of the rules, between Christianity and something else. Sometimes the something else is relatively close. Sometimes its very far apart. Accepting the words written in the Nicene Creed is the baseline for what has been called "Mere Christianity." Thus the sites insistence that to speak as a "Christian" you have to accept truths expressed in the Creed. Even if your denomination is not known as a "Creedal Denomination" which many Protestant groups are not. It is not a personal slight against anyone.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I think Christians have to discriminate often. Between right and wrong. Between truth and falsehood. Between what actions are loving and what actions are not. And per your discussion of the rules, between Christianity and something else. Sometimes the something else is relatively close. Sometimes its very far apart. Accepting the words written in the Nicene Creed is the baseline for what has been called "Mere Christianity." Thus the sites insistence that to speak as a "Christian" you have to accept truths expressed in the Creed. Even if your denomination is not known as a "Creedal Denomination" which many Protestant groups are not. It is not a personal slight against anyone.
I believe in Jesus Christ, He is my Savior and King. He is the Son of God, divine and wonderful. He, the Father, and the Spirit are ONE God. I love and celebrate these truths. I place my faith (and joy) in Christ.

I do not believe a person's relationship with Christ is measured by extra-biblical documents such as Creeds. No offense to the Creeds-- they're just not God-breathed scripture.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I believe in Jesus Christ, He is my Savior and King. He is the Son of God, divine and wonderful. He, the Father, and the Spirit are ONE God. I love and celebrate these truths. I place my faith (and joy) in Christ.

I do not believe a person's relationship with Christ is measured by extra-biblical documents such as Creeds. No offense to the Creeds-- they're just not God-breathed scripture.
You choose to believe other extra-biblical documents though. Ones that prescribe these strange requirements of working to earn salvation. Those documents are far more extreme than any Christian Creeds and, unlike the Christian Creeds, they are not in line with the Bible. That's why mormonism is not a Christian religion - it does not accept the Bible as God's Word, but rather as "part" of God's Word that is erroneous and incomplete.

This thread focuses on the mormon religion's element of men judging other men's "worthiness" for earning esoteric, occult knowledge within the mormon religion. It's simply a fact that this is true, but the discussion seems to be more about what the motivations behind it are in actuality. I think the greatest motivation behind it is that it is a control technique for the mormon corporation to control their members. It's just like every other organization that does the same thing.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Meanwhile, Christian churches generally love thoroughly explaining their liturgies, as well as inviting everyone to them (after all, how else is anyone supposed to want to join your church if they can't tell what it is that you do?):

Explanation of the Coptic Orthodox liturgy

Explanation of the Greek Orthodox liturgy

Explanation of the traditional Roman Catholic mass

Explanation of the Armenian Apostolic liturgy (Sourp Badarak)

etc., etc.

Mormonism is very much out of step with Christianity in this way, as it is in many other ways. It has an occultic approach to these things, as we have discussed before. Lord have mercy.
Well said, dzheremy.

This is the difference between Christianity, which is open to all, and occultism, which is any religion that hides esoteric information until a candidate has proven "worthy" to receive another piece of that hidden knowledge.

Christian churches and cathedrals are OPEN to ALL. Anyone can go into any Christian Church anytime they are opened up. Anyone can watch any Christian procession, ritual, liturgy, ceremony, etc. Not only can anyone watch, but it is encouraged to share. The clergy are happy to share and explain. The Gospel is a Free Message from God and we don't want to hold it back! Everything in the Church is centered on the Gospel.

Contrast to mormonism. They have secretive, exclusive buildings called "Temples". The only ones allowed in are those vetted and deemed "worthy" by their clergy. Their clergy and laity will not discuss what happens in those buildings. Nobody is allowed to see, nobody is given any explanation, nobody is permitted to share in that knowledge other than those vetted and approved. Of their own religion, it is a minority, about 10 to 20% who ever get permission to enter and start the levels of their mystery religion. The Cross is abhorred, as is its message. Other messages are given in secret. Oaths are required before men - Swearing as forbidden by God's Word is REQUIRED in these occultic temples.

These are clearly opposite religions.
Christianity: Open, free, no secrets, open to all, Free Gospel, no visitor is beholden to any member or clergy but only to God. Focus on Christ's Sacrifice because we can never be worthy (not a single one of us!) without it.
Mormonism: Closed, secretive, forbidden to be discussed, focus on members' individual sacrifices to earn "worthiness" before their "christ" will ever help them, occultic and esoteric, shut off from the world, uninviting, exclusive and CONTROLLING.

Mormonism does its best to look on the surface like a Christian church by hiding (again, they love hiding things) the reality about them. But any seeker who investigates them can quickly see through their charade as soon as they start learning the reality of that religion. The problem is that many are lulled into it by the lies and before they can realize they've been lied to they are being controlled.
 
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dzheremi

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I do not believe a person's relationship with Christ is measured by extra-biblical documents such as Creeds. No offense to the Creeds-- they're just not God-breathed scripture.

Then why is it measured by Mormon bishops with 'worthiness' interviews? Where are those in the scriptures? Nowhere, and you know it. So the key thing that we're actually talking about in this thread is itself 'extra-Biblical', and yet you presumably have no problem with that, since you maintain the secrecy that they require of you on topics relating to your temple worship.
 
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I do not believe a person's relationship with Christ is measured by extra-biblical documents such as Creeds. No offense to the Creeds-- they're just not God-breathed scripture.

Do you believe, as the LDS church teaches, that you have to attend the temple and be 'endowed' and wear 'garments' to achieve the highest level of heaven, the Celestial Kingdom? The only place in all three levels of heaven where Gods dwells?

Because that's certainly not God-breathed scripture.
 
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Mal'ak

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Was a news article last week in Salt Lake Utah, a mother and her husband was refused entry to temple because they were in waiting room of temple breast feeding, the mother was said to be seducing the men there with inappropriate contentographic behavior. If Mormon men get sinful thoughts from a woman feeding her child, their ability to be good or righteous people is rather slim in my opinion.

Plus they broke the commandment of God and Jesus not to add to the Word of God, they added three false doctrines to justify their beliefs, so you can not use scripture to call them out as they do not go by the real word of God...and their books of Mormon they change almost yearly to benefit themselves, "oh this is too hard to follow, let us take this out and replace it".

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
 
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He is the way

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Well said, dzheremy.

This is the difference between Christianity, which is open to all, and occultism, which is any religion that hides esoteric information until a candidate has proven "worthy" to receive another piece of that hidden knowledge.

Christian churches and cathedrals are OPEN to ALL. Anyone can go into any Christian Church anytime they are opened up. Anyone can watch any Christian procession, ritual, liturgy, ceremony, etc. Not only can anyone watch, but it is encouraged to share. The clergy are happy to share and explain. The Gospel is a Free Message from God and we don't want to hold it back! Everything in the Church is centered on the Gospel.

Contrast to mormonism. They have secretive, exclusive buildings called "Temples". The only ones allowed in are those vetted and deemed "worthy" by their clergy. Their clergy and laity will not discuss what happens in those buildings. Nobody is allowed to see, nobody is given any explanation, nobody is permitted to share in that knowledge other than those vetted and approved. Of their own religion, it is a minority, about 10 to 20% who ever get permission to enter and start the levels of their mystery religion. The Cross is abhorred, as is its message. Other messages are given in secret. Oaths are required before men - Swearing as forbidden by God's Word is REQUIRED in these occultic temples.

These are clearly opposite religions.
Christianity: Open, free, no secrets, open to all, Free Gospel, no visitor is beholden to any member or clergy but only to God. Focus on Christ's Sacrifice because we can never be worthy (not a single one of us!) without it.
Mormonism: Closed, secretive, forbidden to be discussed, focus on members' individual sacrifices to earn "worthiness" before their "christ" will ever help them, occultic and esoteric, shut off from the world, uninviting, exclusive and CONTROLLING.

Mormonism does its best to look on the surface like a Christian church by hiding (again, they love hiding things) the reality about them. But any seeker who investigates them can quickly see through their charade as soon as they start learning the reality of that religion. The problem is that many are lulled into it by the lies and before they can realize they've been lied to they are being controlled.
Anyone is allowed to attend church services at a LDS church, however the temple is the Lord's house. Not everyone is allowed to go there:

(New Testament | Acts 21:28)

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

(New Testament | John 2:13 - 17)

13 ¶ And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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What is interesting to me is that to the extent that you can say that worthiness at least does play some role in our Christian religion as well (see, e.g., 1 Corinthians 11:29; at least in the NKJV, which is the English translation favored in my Church, St. Paul speaks of worthiness), the Mormon religion takes it to an extreme that is only ever seen in Christianity in times of extreme stress and fragmentation, as with the rise of the Arians and their creation of a parallel parasitic church, or the Chalcedonian schism which actually created two separate bodies.

By this I mean that you can infer from some of the earliest sources that we have, such as St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter to the Smyrneans (c. 107 AD), that it was the early church's practice to still allow those regarded as heretics at least into the church gathering, whereby the heretics would show themselves by their practice:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.​

"They abstain from the Eucharist" -- hence, they must've actually been there, as it does not make sense to say that one is abstaining but in an environment where others are not. For example, I wouldn't say I "abstain" from the Roman Catholic Eucharist, because that implies I'm in a place where I could otherwise receive it, if I chose to and it was offered (in other words, it's not like it's long-distance abstaining or receiving). I could say I would abstain, were it offered, but that's conditional in a way that St. Ignatius' statement is not.

So isn't it a little odd, my friends, that the Mormons treat their own -- not even heretics (if there is such a thing, relative to Mormonism's standards), but members who are just not 'worthy' enough -- worse than Christians who were openly declaring their heresy? We did not deny such entrance into the worshiping community (as in, the ability to be physically present there), only warning them that by their disputing the clear and orthodox faith they incurred death (by walking away from the faith; it's a warning, not a command).

It's a really strange, and I think telling, difference. It's as though they treat even the presence inside their building in a manner similar to a traditional church which practices closed communion, yet at the same time they have their 'sacrament' outside of the temple in their meeting halls instead, which anyone can go into and even partake of their sacrament with them while they're there. This is very strange, from a traditional Christian perspective. They took the holy thing and gave it to everyone, but the 'liturgy' of theirs? No way. You can't see that. We can't talk about that. That's too sacred.

Ya got it backwards, JS! Exactly backwards! You shut everyone but the 'worthy' out of your liturgy, but then took your sacrament and put that outside of your liturgy, as well! How weird.

You only refer to one Bible passage. It's actually 1 Corinthians 11:27, where Paul writes about people who are unworthy of the Lord's Supper because they don't recognize the body of Christ when they take the elements. In other words, for them, their unbelief gets in the way of the real meaning of the sacrament. The unworthiness is unbelief, so he's not discriminating against some Christians and favoring others.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Do you believe, as the LDS church teaches, that you have to attend the temple and be 'endowed' and wear 'garments' to achieve the highest level of heaven, the Celestial Kingdom? The only place in all three levels of heaven where Gods dwells?

Because that's certainly not God-breathed scripture.
Let me clarify a couple of misconceptions here:

1) LDS happily acknowledge other people's relationships with Christ and status as Christians. That is about that person's love/devotion to Christ, not about accepting any specific documents.

2) LDS do not impose religious discrimination on others. In fact, your right to worship according to your own conscious dictates is so important to us it's literally one of our Articles of Faith. This goes for ALL people. For example, on LDS forums all people are welcomed with full rights as every other person.

3) An LDS temple is not a tourist destination. Neither is it the place of our Sunday worship. It is a place very specifically set apart for that person to make promises with God. Just like any other religious ritual, this doesn't make one person 'better' than another-- just like you would not say Sam the Priest is a better disciple of Christ than you just because he's a priest.

All that make sense thus far?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Was a news article last week in Salt Lake Utah, a mother and her husband was refused entry to temple because they were in waiting room of temple breast feeding, the mother was said to be seducing the men there with inappropriate contentographic behavior. If Mormon men get sinful thoughts from a woman feeding her child, their ability to be good or righteous people is rather slim in my opinion.

Plus they broke the commandment of God and Jesus not to add to the Word of God, they added three false doctrines to justify their beliefs, so you can not use scripture to call them out as they do not go by the real word of God...and their books of Mormon they change almost yearly to benefit themselves, "oh this is too hard to follow, let us take this out and replace it".

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?


Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Would you be interested in the bigger picture going on here?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Let me clarify a couple of misconceptions here:

1) LDS happily acknowledge other people's relationships with Christ and status as Christians. That is about that person's love/devotion to Christ, not about accepting any specific documents.

2) LDS do not impose religious discrimination on others. In fact, your right to worship according to your own conscious dictates is so important to us it's literally one of our Articles of Faith. This goes for ALL people. For example, on LDS forums all people are welcomed with full rights as every other person.

3) An LDS temple is not a tourist destination. Neither is it the place of our Sunday worship. It is a place very specifically set apart for that person to make promises with God. Just like any other religious ritual, this doesn't make one person 'better' than another-- just like you would not say Sam the Priest is a better disciple of Christ than you just because he's a priest.

All that make sense thus far?
No, doesn''t make sense.

If you tell someone they are not permitted into one of your buildings based on your judgment of their lacking spiritual or moral worthiness then yes you do impose religious discrimination on those people.

Also if temples are not tourist destinations then why do they have "Visitor Centers"? Sounds pretty touristy to me.
 
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RoseCrystal

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Let me clarify a couple of misconceptions here:

1) LDS happily acknowledge other people's relationships with Christ and status as Christians. That is about that person's love/devotion to Christ, not about accepting any specific documents.

2) LDS do not impose religious discrimination on others. In fact, your right to worship according to your own conscious dictates is so important to us it's literally one of our Articles of Faith. This goes for ALL people. For example, on LDS forums all people are welcomed with full rights as every other person.

3) An LDS temple is not a tourist destination. Neither is it the place of our Sunday worship. It is a place very specifically set apart for that person to make promises with God. Just like any other religious ritual, this doesn't make one person 'better' than another-- just like you would not say Sam the Priest is a better disciple of Christ than you just because he's a priest.

All that make sense thus far?
I didn't ask you anything to do with the any of the above. I asked if you believe in the LDS teachings about the temple and what they mean?

1) nothing to do with anything I said, nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

2) the discrimination this thread is talking is within the LDS faith itself, temple worthy members vs non temple worthy members, the discrimination is from the leaders of the LDS church, the rules and doctrine of the LDS church, the temple recommend process - separating temple worthy members from non temple worthy members.

3) I didn't say going to the temple and learning secret 'token' handshakes and getting 'garments' makes anyone 'better' than anyone else but it does divide people, because you can't (in LDS teaching) be with God in the Celestial Kingdom without the ordinances done at the temple. I'm sure the LDS church believes that it is 'better' if all LDS members are 'temple worthy'. Temple marriage is HIGHLY pushed in the LDS faith
 
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Jane_Doe

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I didn't ask you anything to do with the any of the above. I asked if you believe in the LDS teachings about the temple and what they mean?
Yes, and the most first most important thing is to explain that it does NOT have anything to do with a person being better than another (hence why I just explained that and asked if it made sense). Just like a person being confirmed in a church doesn't make them 'better' than another. This is an incredibly common misconception that if it's not 100% cleared up this conversation can't go anywhere.
 
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RoseCrystal

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Yes, and the most first most important thing is to explain that it does NOT have anything to do with a person being better than another (hence why I just explained that and asked if it made sense). Just like a person being confirmed in a church doesn't make them 'better' than another. This is an incredibly common misconception that if it's not 100% cleared up this conversation can't go anywhere.
Again, I didn't say going to the temple and learning secret 'token' handshakes and getting 'garments' makes anyone 'better' than anyone else but it does divide people, because you can't (in LDS teaching) be with God in the Celestial Kingdom without the ordinances done at the temple.

I'm sure the LDS church believes that it is 'better' if all LDS members are 'temple worthy'. Being endowed in the Temple and Temple marriage is HIGHLY pushed in the LDS faith.

Missionaries can't go on missions if they are not 'endowed' in the temple, you can't be with God again in the Celestial Kingdom without the temple. So that in itself IS spiritual discrimination, no temple no God - that's discrimination no matter how you look at it, and the fact that 10% of your income is necessary to be with God is spiritual financial abuse.

A lot of churches tithe, but to say tithing is a requirement to be able to be with God in Heaven - that's terrible, my heart goes out to people that believe that they can't be with God if they don't pay, and the people that believe it and can't afford to pay it, they spend their life thinking they can't be with God because they can't afford it. That's so sad, I could never support such a doctrine.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I'm sure the LDS church believes that it is 'better' if all LDS members are 'temple worthy'. Being endowed in the Temple and Temple marriage is HIGHLY pushed in the LDS faith.
Much like Catholics would love to have all people confirmed in the Catholic church and all marriages done sacramentally by a Catholic priest. And a person must meet certain requirements in order to do this.

But that is NOT discrimination or saying one person is better than another.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Yes, and the most first most important thing is to explain that it does NOT have anything to do with a person being better than another (hence why I just explained that and asked if it made sense). Just like a person being confirmed in a church doesn't make them 'better' than another. This is an incredibly common misconception that if it's not 100% cleared up this conversation can't go anywhere.
So you're saying that a person who is worthy is in no way better than a person who is not worthy? Worthy is equal to non-worthy? That defies the meanings of the words.

If that were the case, why would the non-worthy be forbidden from the temple? They are equal, there's no difference between the worthy and non-worthy so why discriminate?

You're trying to say that your religion doesn't discriminate in the face of the glaringly obvious fact that your religion does indeed discriminate and in fact it's your religion's dogma to discriminate based on religion both within your religion and outside of it. You can't really make a convincing argument by simply stating self-contradictory assertions.
 
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Much like Catholics would love to have all people confirmed in the Catholic church and all marriages done sacramentally by a Catholic priest. And a person must meet certain requirements in order to do this.

But that is NOT discrimination or saying one person is better than another.

You can't be with God again in the Celestial Kingdom without the temple. So that in itself IS spiritual discrimination, no temple no God - that's discrimination no matter how you look at it, and the fact that 10% of your income is necessary to be with God is spiritual financial abuse.

A lot of churches tithe, but to say tithing is a requirement to be able to be with God in Heaven - that's terrible, my heart goes out to people that believe that they can't be with God if they don't pay, and the people that believe it and can't afford to pay it, they spend their life thinking they can't be with God because they can't afford it. That's so sad, I could never support such a doctrine.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Much like Catholics would love to have all people confirmed in the Catholic church and all marriages done sacramentally by a Catholic priest. And a person must meet certain requirements in order to do this.

But that is NOT discrimination or saying one person is better than another.
Very different as marriage in the Catholic Church has zero connection to salvation. In Mormonism, however, it is required to perform all the rituals of the Mormon Temple to achieve True Salvation, yet the mormon religion discriminates against all non-mormons and over 80% of their own mormon membership.
 
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Jane_Doe

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You can't be with God again in the Celestial Kingdom without the temple.
Actually, LDS believe that many people who have never stepped a mortal foot in an LDS temple (or even heard of the LDS church) will be 100% with God in the Celestial Kingdom.

God is great and merciful.
 
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