Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Jason0047 said:

Again, it doesn't make sense. That would be like going up to Ohio when you want to go to Kentucky.

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Of course its hard for you to see it, you are a 'rapture to heaven' believer!

From Revelation 12:14, we know that the bulk of the Lord's faithful Christian people are taken to a place of safety on earth, during the 42 month Great Tribulation. It is them who will be transported supernaturally to meet Jesus at His Return.

AS a pre-trib rapture believer, you make two fundamental errors;
1/ you place 1 Thess 4:15-17 before the Return, for the Millennium.
2/ you think the 'harparzo' is a removal to heaven.
Both are wrong and conflict with all other scriptures about this.

keras said:

Of course its hard for you to see it, you are a 'rapture to heaven' believer!

From Revelation 12:14, we know that the bulk of the Lord's faithful Christian people are taken to a place of safety on earth, during the 42 month Great Tribulation. It is them who will be transported supernaturally to meet Jesus at His Return.

AS a pre-trib rapture believer, you make two fundamental errors;
1/ you place 1 Thess 4:15-17 before the Return, for the Millennium.
2/ you think the 'harparzo' is a removal to heaven.
Both are wrong and conflict with all other scriptures about this.

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It's not about being a Pre-Trib Rapture believer. It's going where the evidence leads me. The evidence points to meeting the Lord in the air and we will forever be with Him where He is. That is what the text says. It does not say, "And we shall all meet the Lord on the Earth and rule with Him forever there." It just doesn't say that.

Jason0047 said:

If the Rapture was at Christ's 2nd coming, they wouldn't need to worry about being in the Day of the Lord because the Day of the Lord includes the 2nd coming of Jesus (Which is a time of judgment).

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That is just it, Paul and the Apostles regarded the gathering up to the Lord, with that Day in the Singular, that he said he would raise them up. Obviously Paul and the Apostles are still recipients to that gathering, even though they have long departed from this temporal realm.

Paul in 2 Timothy 4:6-8 associated that day in the singular, with the gathering and the Final Judgement of the Dead, because as it is written all men are destined to biologically die once, then Judgement, so that Day as far as Paul is concerned is the day of the Final Judgement of the Dead, because Paul died, the Apostles died and all waited for what was in store for them at the gathering, at Christ's Appearing (1 John 3:2).

This gathering is for the departed souls who were beheaded for Christ, as mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

It is clear that the departed souls of Paul and the Apostles are counted amongst the numbers who are gathered at Christ's appearing, which places them at the millennium reign of Christ with Christ, because as Paul said.....the Living shall not proceed the Dead in Christ. Hence, this is the 1st resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

A few questions for you....why would Jesus not raise the gathered in their new bodies, at the 1st resurrection?

What purpose would an earthly body have at the gathering, if it is not instantly killed off and replaced with the resurrection body?

This final question will introduce to you an unresolvable contradiction on your part of an earthly reign at the gathering....

Why would Jesus reign on earth physically, if he is not with his resurrected Saints?

What would he be reigning for and for what purpose, because scripture says.....

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This includes Paul and the Apostles.

So textually speaking the gathering is post biological death and if he reigns with those who he raised on that day, he is not going to be reigning with earthly fleshies.

The result from this eschatological view is that after Satan is released, the departed must be gathered.

When Jesus raises those who he gathers at his appearing, he is not going to do it partially, but is going to do it fully, meaning if a person is not raised, well they are prepared for the Lake of Fire. There is no reason for an earthly reign with biological life forms to continue on earth, that are dictated by the cycle of life and death, but Christ appears and destroys the last enemy death, because if death continues then he has not fully delivered the Kingdom to God the Father.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom.........

The time of my departure is near, there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

If Jesus Judges the Living and the Dead at his Appearing, then his Appearance on earth, cannot be one that leaves the Living outside of the Judgement of his Appearing and since this is the one and only Judgement, concerning that Day in the singular, then death cannot exist for a 1000 years, alongside his earthly reign.

This means that when Christ appears all must biologically die.

Any appearance of Christ, signals the end of humanity as we know it.

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must continue to reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Jesus hands over the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to the Father, in open declaration that he has fully accomplished the will of the Father, by delivering through his Cross, all that needed delivering and who were written in the book of life. He would have also destroyed all dominion, authority and power, which also includes Satan, after Satan was released for the final time to be judged and condemned to the Lake of Fire, never to rise again. The last enemy death will also be defeated, which means that biologically death, spiritual death and Hell will be a thing of the past.

No one in their eschatological rightful mind can place Christ's millennium either from the 1st Century, the Cross or 70AD and neither can they place it on earth for 1000 years, when things are in the process of still being delivered. This would mean that the Cross on its own did not fully accomplish this task, that is it only accomplished it partially and therefore it requires Jesus to come and physically reign on earth to accomplish it. Obviously in hindsight, this would not be considered a reign at all, but a catch up or work in progress in still delivering the Kingdom.

An earthly reign would highly suggest it is no reign at all, but an uphill battle to deliver everyone and the Kingdom to the Father, across a 1000 years. This would be dreadful and a botched process at best, if it requires Jesus a 1000 years to deliver what needs delivering and to finally defeat death at the end of the 1000 years.

I actually find dispennsationalism millennium earthly reign a flagrant mockery of the testimony of the Apostles at best. We have a 1000 year work in progress and no reign at all, when Paul obviously places Christ reigning through his Cross from the 1st Century, as "he must continue to reign".

What then becomes of the Cross for dispensationalism's 1000 year earthly reign?

What becomes of the Temple Builder God the Holy Spirit if Christ allegedly is now reigning from a physical Temple in Jerusalem?

I have observed and discerned that dispensationalism earthly millennium kingdom is by far more destructive to the faith in Christ than Full Preterism.

Jason0047 said:

It's not about being a Pre-Trib Rapture believer. It's going where the evidence leads me. The evidence points to meeting the Lord in the air and we will forever be with Him where He is. That is what the text says. It does not say, "And we shall all meet the Lord on the Earth and rule with Him forever there." It just doesn't say that.

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The prophecy of 1 Thess 4:17 doesn't say the final destination of those gathered, at all.
Your guess is to heaven, mine is to Jerusalem, on earth.
So we must scan other scriptures to get to the truth. Your turn first;
Please provide a scripture that says Jesus will take His people to heaven.

Jason0047 said:

The Tribulation saints are not the bride, but they are a part of the body of Christ. Jesus marries certain select believers and then later opens the door for more believers after the wedding.

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You have gone against the teaching of those who came up with the Two Peoples of God doctrine and the Pretrib removal of the Church, in your statement above.
They claim that Israel is Israel, and the Church is the Church.

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

.......................................

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.



Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

The truth of the matter is that the Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The term "tribulation saints" was made up in order to make the pretrib doctrine work. It is not found in scripture.


You have also gone against the words of Christ in the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Based on the passage above, there will be no second chances after the Bridegroom comes.
The second chances idea is one of the greatest errors of the Pretrib doctrine.

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BABerean2 said:

How is this possible if we are only made up of a body, as the "soul sleep" doctrine claims?

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Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Original Happy Camper said:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If Christians are only made up of a body, how do you explain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Does the Holy Spirit live inside of nonbelievers?

Have you always had the Holy Spirit?

When did you get the Holy Spirit living inside of you?

All false systems of interpretation are exposed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
"Soul Sleep" is an excellent example of the above.

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Striving to move on.

May God bless you all.

Jason0047 said:

What the?!! We are in the Millennium? Uh, no.
Please refer to the verses I provided on the Millennium to learn why.

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Respectfully, I don't need you to teach me why. I've seen all the verses, I've heard all the arguments, I've done all the research and this is the only position that makes sense. I too used to think amillennialists were crazy, dumb or uninformed. Until I did the research and realized that all roads lead to amillenialism.

BABerean2 said:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If Christians are only made up of a body, how do you explain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Does the Holy Spirit live inside of nonbelievers?

Have you always had the Holy Spirit?

When did you get the Holy Spirit living inside of you?

All false systems of interpretation are exposed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
"Soul Sleep" is an excellent example of the above.

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You're a stubborn one Bab.

LastSeven said:

Respectfully, I don't need you to teach me why. I've seen all the verses, I've heard all the arguments, I've done all the research and this is the only position that makes sense. I too used to think amillennialists were crazy, dumb or uninformed. Until I did the research and realized that all roads lead to amillenialism.

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I can say the same thing. But we both cannot be right.
Either way, let’s agree to disagree.

May God bless you.

Jason0047 said:

I can say the same thing. But we both cannot be right.
Either way, let’s agree to disagree.

May God bless you.

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The best solution! After all, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I have discovered long ago that most people are on these threads are here to teach, not learn - so most are closed to learning anything: Preconceptions can be far stronger than any verse of truth.

LastSeven said:

See, you keep putting that phrase "of this age" after "the last day". The Bible never says "the last day of this age". Only you're saying that. I'm telling you what the Bible says. It says "the last day". Period. No more days after the last day. It's not the last day of this age. It's just the last day.

And obviously if anything is "last" there can be no more after it. It you're talking about the last of the Mohicans, that means there are no more Mohicans after him. If you're talking about the last airbender, there are no more airbenders. If it's your last chance to get 70% off that sofa set, that means there are no more chances after that. Likewise, if Jesus says he's resurrecting us on the last day, that means there are no more days after that. And since years are made up of days, there can be no 1000 years after the last day. Literally impossible.

It's really quite simple. I don't know why this is always such a debate.

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The following IMO debunks your theory that nothing can be after the last. What is the last day in question here? Is it not the last day of this age? Does that then mean there will be no more ages after this age? I wouldn't think so. We have to keep things in context. It's the last day of this age, not the last day as if there will be no other days after this, nor any more ages.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

How can there be months in the next age yet not involve any more days after the last day of this age?

Choose Wisely said:

The Gentiles are taken pretrib. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed.

The twelve tribes from around the earth are taken pre wrath. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

The remnant that flees in Israel is protected at Petra.

The reason you can't pinpoint the pretrib rapture is because He tells us that the goodman will not know when he is coming.

The reason that the twelve tribes will know when He is coming is because that day......the day of Lord...won't come as as thief to those that are not in darkness.

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Nope, The earth at that time of Noah was destroyed, with the immediate death of the wicked with the flood, no delay of years and years as Peter states. And then Peter says we look forward to a new heaven and a new earth!
While a pre trib rapture, the earth continues on as is fior years and years with no utter and complete destruction of the wicked until Christ returns.

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Reasons for the Pre-Trib Rapture:

Reason #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection. The Rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Revelation 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the Second Coming of Christ, does not mention a resurrection? The Rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention of it here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The Rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the second coming.

Reason #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection. This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Reason #3: Two different pictures are painted. In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isaiah 53:2-10, Psalms 22:6-8, Psalms 11-18) and one reigning as King (Psalms 2:6-12, Zechariah 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we can see that they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King. In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call the Rapture and the Second Coming.

Reason #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matthew 24:15-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Revelation 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Reason #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1) The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture (see Reason #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the Second Coming.

Reason #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1) A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This seems to be a prophetic reference to the Rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Revelation 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Revelation 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Revelation 22:17.

Reason #7: The 24 elders have their crowns. After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Revelation 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the Rapture (2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders could not have received their crowns unless the resurrection (Rapture) had taken place.

Reason #8: Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 19:14). The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:14, Zechariah 14:5, Colossians 3:4). These are not angels because Revelation 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous Rapture.

Reason #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Revelation 3:10) Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some wrongly believe that "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Reason #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment. When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the Rapture. There is a huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matthew 22:30) and able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the Rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, and Matthew 13:49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Reason #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, and Matthew 13:49 says the wicked are taken first and the righteous are left behind. These verses point to two separate events, the Rapture and the Second Coming.

Reason #12: Jesus returns from the wedding. When Jesus returns to earth at the Second Coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the Rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church (Matthew 25:10). After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Reason #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, and not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3). Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, and then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the Rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the Rapture occurred at the same time as the Second Coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Reason #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way. In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the Rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Reason #15: Paul says comfort one another with these words in reference to the Rapture or catching up mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. Now, what comfort is there in hearing these words from Paul about being caught up into the air if we have to go through the Tribulation period? It makes no sense.


Source Used:
http://makinglifecount.net/
(Important Note: It appears I do not agree with this site's version of Soteriology, but I do agree with the majority of their article on their defending the Pre-Trib Rapture).

iamlamad said:

The best solution! After all, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I have discovered long ago that most people are on these threads are here to teach, not learn - so most are closed to learning anything: Preconceptions can be far stronger than any verse of truth.

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I always strive to remember to love other brethren, and to strive to be loving (as much as possible) with my words. Why?

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing."
(1 Corinthians 13:2).

Jason0047 said:

Reasons for the Pre-Trib Rapture:

Reason #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matthew 24:15-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Revelation 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

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I agree in general with your post, because I am extreme pretrib. However, I disagree on reason #4. Rev. 12:6 only shows us the fleeing will go for 1260 days. Does this tell us for sure - with no doubt - that Christ returns at the 7th vial that ends the week?
Please explain your reasoning.

As I read it, the week ends at the 7th vial, but then the marriage takes place in heaven then and Jesus does not return until after the marriage and supper.

In other words, BOTH of His comings are unknown.