Two Messiah?

visionary · Aug 2, 2018

gadar perets said:
The serpent deceived her and broke down the barriers of obedience to not only YHWH, but to her husband as well. Any one of us who are supposed to be subservient to YHWH or man can fall prey as well.

The serpent told her that in verse 5 by saying she would be like Elohim.

I believe he was such a man's man that he was willing to suffer the consequences of Eve's sin with her. Adam knew she had eaten the forbidden fruit and was not willing to have her suffer alone. So he ate it as well. IMHO.

that and.... God made Eve because Adam saw that there was no one for him... the thought of being alone after being with her for so long... must have had a play on his decision to join her in eating of the fruit.

gadar perets · Aug 2, 2018

visionary said:
that and.... God made Eve because Adam saw that there was no one for him... the thought of being alone after being with her for so long... must have had a play on his decision to join her in eating of the fruit.

Possibly. What leads you to believe they were together for a long time?

visionary · Aug 2, 2018

gadar perets said:
Possibly. What leads you to believe they were together for a long time?

Just some pondering...

God’s curse on Eve was that He was going to multiply her pain in childbirth (Genesis 3:16), she must have given birth to numerous children in the garden, or else God’s curse would have meant nothing to her. ... How can something be multiplied if it hadn't happened before??

Second point is how quickly after the Garden of Eden that Cain built a city. Adam and Eve must have been in the garden for quite some time because after they left, it was said of Cain that “he builded a city” (Genesis 4:17).

And another point is that Genesis 4:25 explains that Seth was born after Cain slew Abel. Since the biblical account makes it clear that Seth was born outside the garden, and since Genesis 5:3 informs us that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, it is obvious that Adam and Eve could not have been in the Garden of Eden any longer than 130 years!

One of the commands given to Adam and Eve was that they “be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth” (Genesis 1:28). [Interestingly, Isaiah would say many years later that God created the Earth “to be inhabited” (Isaiah 45:18).] In other words, Adam and Eve were commanded to reproduce.

I don't know, but I will throw these thoughts out there for you to consider.

Dave-W · Aug 3, 2018

visionary said:
And another point is that Genesis 4:25 explains that Seth was born after Cain slew Abel. Since the biblical account makes it clear that Seth was born outside the garden, and since Genesis 5:3 informs us that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, it is obvious that Adam and Eve could not have been in the Garden of Eden any longer than 130 years!

The rabbis teach that Adam and Mrs Adam were kicked out of the garden only hours after being created. (same day before sundown)

gadar perets · Aug 3, 2018

visionary said:
Just some pondering...

God’s curse on Eve was that He was going to multiply her pain in childbirth (Genesis 3:16), she must have given birth to numerous children in the garden, or else God’s curse would have meant nothing to her. ... How can something be multiplied if it hadn't happened before??

It is hard to believe that they had children in the garden before the fall with no mention of them. Such children would have been innocent of Adam and Eve's transgression and should have continued living in the garden.

Second point is how quickly after the Garden of Eden that Cain built a city. Adam and Eve must have been in the garden for quite some time because after they left, it was said of Cain that “he builded a city” (Genesis 4:17).

He built the city LONG after coming out of the garden. He was born outside the garden and had to be at least a teenager when he killed Abel. Later he got married and had Enoch. It wasn't until after that that he built a city. None of this has a bearing on how long Adam and Eve were in the garden.

And another point is that Genesis 4:25 explains that Seth was born after Cain slew Abel. Since the biblical account makes it clear that Seth was born outside the garden, and since Genesis 5:3 informs us that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, it is obvious that Adam and Eve could not have been in the Garden of Eden any longer than 130 years!

Correct. However, we are not told how long after they left the garden that they had Seth. For all we know, they could have left the garden when Adam was 20.

One of the commands given to Adam and Eve was that they “be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth” (Genesis 1:28). [Interestingly, Isaiah would say many years later that God created the Earth “to be inhabited” (Isaiah 45:18).] In other words, Adam and Eve were commanded to reproduce.

I agree, but again, we don't know how long they were in the garden. They may have been in the garden for less than a year before the serpent deceived Eve. That is a far more likely scenario than them being in the garden for many years until the serpent finally decided to deceive Eve.

visionary · Aug 3, 2018

gadar perets said:
It is hard to believe that they had children in the garden before the fall with no mention of them. Such children would have been innocent of Adam and Eve's transgression and should have continued living in the garden.

He built the city LONG after coming out of the garden. He was born outside the garden and had to be at least a teenager when he killed Abel. Later he got married and had Enoch. It wasn't until after that that he built a city. None of this has a bearing on how long Adam and Eve were in the garden.

Correct. However, we are not told how long after they left the garden that they had Seth. For all we know, they could have left the garden when Adam was 20.

I agree, but again, we don't know how long they were in the garden. They may have been in the garden for less than a year before the serpent deceived Eve. That is a far more likely scenario than them being in the garden for many years until the serpent finally decided to deceive Eve.

"some time" is probably the most appropriate estimate of how long they were in the Garden because all clues are not conclusive evidence.

AbbaLove · Aug 3, 2018

dfw69 said:
The fruit Satan offered them to partake in was really tempting for both ....

Eve was simply first to give in....it took Adam a little longer but eventually he couldn't resist the great temptation ...

That reasoning suggests that both Eve as well as Adam were unable to resist the cunning deception (lie and temptation) of Satan. Many so-called Christians today are apparently unable to resist the temptations (delight to the eyes) of the world. Does that excuse other believers to follow suit as apparently what delights the eyes is pleasurable with no apparent harm forthcoming?

dfw69 said:
I believe he was such a man's man that he was willing to suffer the consequences of Eve's sin with her. Adam knew she had eaten the forbidden fruit and was not willing to have her suffer alone. So he ate it as well. IMHO.

Why didn't Adam stop Eve from eating of the fruit if he suspected she would suffer alone. Doesn't sound like a Man's man to me, but rather like you're excusing Adam's behavior.

If Adam really loved God and Eve he wouldn't have been a participating bystander to the wiles of Satan. Or are you suggesting that both Eve and Adam were unable to resist Satan?

wile: devious or cunning stratagems employed in manipulating or persuading someone.

AbbaLove · Aug 3, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Mrs. Adam" (colloquially) There was always a very clear distinction between married and unmarried women ........ never the ungodly vagueness of "ms" ....

Perhaps you're not aware that it's not unusual for an American liberated married woman to refer to herself as Ms. instead of Mrs.

That was the context of my reply that apparently Eve didn't see herself as Adam's property (Mrs Adam), but was her own woman to do as she pleased as Ms Eve Adam. Such a wife in today's American culture will sometimes retain her last name that she went by before marriage as well as her husband's last name (e.g. Ms. Eve Adam, not Mrs. Adam). Seeing as they didn't have a last name i'm using their primary name as an example when i say Ms. Eve Adam.

gadar perets · Aug 3, 2018

AbbaLove said:
That reasoning suggests that both Eve as well as Adam were unable to resist the cunning deception (lie and temptation) of Satan. Many so-called Christians today are apparently unable to resist the temptations (delight to the eyes) of the world. Does that excuse other believers to follow suit as apparently what delights the eyes is pleasurable with no apparent harm forthcoming?

Adam was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14), nor was he excused. He paid a very high price for his transgression as will all believers either in this life or the next.

Why didn't Adam stop Eve from eating of the fruit if he suspected she would suffer alone. Doesn't sound like a Man's man to me, but rather like you're excusing Adam's behavior.

If Adam really loved God and Eve he wouldn't have been a participating bystander to the wiles of Satan. Or are you suggesting that both Eve and Adam were unable to resist Satan?

wile: devious or cunning stratagems employed in manipulating or persuading someone.

I seriously doubt that Adam stood by while Eve was being deceived or that he was in the vicinity when Eve ate the fruit. He obviously was not aware of that happening and had no opportunity to stop her from eating. By the time she offered the fruit to Adam it was too late.

Also, you quoted dfw69 in your post, but those were my words.

AbbaLove · Aug 3, 2018

gadar perets said:
The serpent deceived her and broke down the barriers of obedience to not only YHWH, but to her husband as well. Any one of us who are supposed to be subservient to YHWH or man can fall prey as well.

So, are you saying that Adam and Eve were no match for the serpent's deception? Was it just a matter of time until both Adam and Eve would have succumbed to the wiles of the serpent?

gadar perets said:
The serpent told her that in verse 5 by saying she would be like Elohim.

Do you think Adam overheard the serpent and as an innocent bystander thought ... "well let's just wait and see what happens" ?

gadar perets said:
I believe he was such a man's man that he was willing to suffer the consequences of Eve's sin with her. Adam knew she had eaten the forbidden fruit and was not willing to have her suffer alone. So he ate it as well. IMHO.

Can you imagine how well your concept of a "man's man" reasoning would go over with God if Adam had actually put forth such an excuse? God might counter by saying if you understood/knew she might suffer why didn't you stop your helpmate from tasting of the fruit?

DennisTate · Aug 3, 2018

Chinchilla said:
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:

12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:

13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.

19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Why is this passage talking about two goats and casting lots ?

When I read about passover for example , I understand that Lamb is slain as future Messiah and people were saved by the blood which covered thier house .

But I don't understand why are there two goats in this passage , what is this talking about ?

High priest cleansing himself with Bullock offering .
Then the goat slain for transgressions of people .
Why the last goat is let free which is bearing the sins in wilderness if the first one died for the sins and what has it to do with future Messiah ?

My dad, Robert Tate died on January 1, 1990.

I was at that time already beginning to go through a significant theological and philosophical crisis.... because the NDE accounts that I was reading back then were making many scriptures look very different than my mentor Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong and his dad had taught...... regarding Soul Sleep.

So by Yom Kippur of 1990 I was asking some pretty unusual questions about those verses..... and I wondered could there be a latter day Yom Kippur event.... where at least two humans....... . probably followers of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus........ grab hold of potential hidden meaning.... .hidden gold in those verses...... and run with them in such a way that could improve conditions for the unsaved dead?????????

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...om-be-divided-and-fall.8004801/#post-71189145

Can Satan's kingdom be divided and fall?

AbbaLove · Aug 3, 2018

gadar perets said:
I seriously doubt that Adam stood by while Eve was being deceived or that he was in the vicinity when Eve ate the fruit. He obviously was not aware of that happening and had no opportunity to stop her from eating. By the time she offered the fruit to Adam it was too late.

Pure speculative excuse. That rationale suggests that Adam loved Eve more than he treasured and loved God.

God could have killed Eve and created another helpmate for Adam. Just as God at one time was thinking of doing with Israel ...

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."

Maybe, it was Eve that was more stiffnecked than Adam. Perhaps, Eve wanted to do whatever pleased her and "delighted her eyes" and as such really wasn't a fit helpmate for Adam. According to your scenario it seemed Adam loved Eve in spite of her faults more than he loved God or he wouldn't have tasted the fruit offered to him by Eve.

gadar perets · Aug 3, 2018

AbbaLove said:
So, are you saying that Adam and Eve were no match for the serpent's deception? Was it just a matter of time until both Adam and Eve would have succumbed to the wiles of the serpent?

Do you think Adam overheard the serpent and as an innocent bystander thought ... "well let's just wait and see what happens" ?

Can you imagine how well your concept of a "man's man" reasoning would go over with God if Adam had actually put forth such an excuse? God might counter by saying if you understood/knew she might suffer why didn't you stop your helpmate from tasting of the fruit?

I'll assume you did not read my post #69 which addresses all these questions.

dfw69 · Aug 3, 2018

AbbaLove said:
That reasoning suggests that both Eve as well as Adam were unable to resist the cunning deception (lie and temptation) of Satan. Many so-called Christians today are apparently unable to resist the temptations (delight to the eyes) of the world. Does that excuse other believers to follow suit as apparently what delights the eyes is pleasurable with no apparent harm forthcoming?

Why didn't Adam stop Eve from eating of the fruit if he suspected she would suffer alone. Doesn't sound like a Man's man to me, but rather like you're excusing Adam's behavior.

If Adam really loved God and Eve he wouldn't have been a participating bystander to the wiles of Satan. Or are you suggesting that both Eve and Adam were unable to resist Satan?

wile: devious or cunning stratagems employed in manipulating or persuading someone.

Come on abbalove ..you resist Satan every moment of your life ?...u never sin bro? are you holier than Adam and eve? ....everybody sins every day.. ..

The temptation to be as wise as Hashem was simply hard to resist.. .

Shish man I have a hard time resisting french fries let alone a wise making fruit.....

Dkh587 · Aug 3, 2018

gadar perets said:
I seriously doubt that Adam stood by while Eve was being deceived or that he was in the vicinity when Eve ate the fruit. He obviously was not aware of that happening and had no opportunity to stop her from eating

a good many translations say that Adam was with her when she ate. What does the Hebrew say?

https://biblehub.com/genesis/3-6.htm

Just curious: how was she deceived yet Adam was not?

gadar perets · Aug 3, 2018

Dkh587 said:
a good many translations say that Adam was with her when she ate. What does the Hebrew say?

https://biblehub.com/genesis/3-6.htm

Just curious: how was she deceived yet Adam was not?

Yes, the Hebrew uses a word that can mean with. If Adam was right there watching her as she was picking the fruit off or just about to pick it off or just about to eat it, then surely Adam would have stopped her. For all we know, he could have turned his back for a moment to pick some fruit from a nearby tree. We all know how that works with our own children; turn your back for or a moment and they get in all sorts of mischief.

gadar perets · Aug 3, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Pure speculative excuse. That rationale suggests that Adam loved Eve more than he treasured and loved God.

Of course it is speculative. So is your view. What does it matter whether he ate for Eve's sake or he ate for selfish reasons? Either way, he did not love YHWH enough to obey.

God could have killed Eve and created another helpmate for Adam. Just as God at one time was thinking of doing with Israel ...

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."

Yes, that is easy for you to say looking back on those events and having YHWH's words to Moses above. Adam didn't have that advantage. All he had was a wife who was the only woman in the world and who had fallen before his eyes.

Maybe, it was Eve that was more stiffnecked than Adam. Perhaps, Eve wanted to do whatever pleased her and "delighted her eyes" and as such really wasn't a fit helpmate for Adam. According to your scenario it seemed Adam loved Eve in spite of her faults more than he loved God or he wouldn't have tasted the fruit offered to him by Eve.

Eve was not stiffnecked. She was deceived into thinking it was OK to eat the fruit.

And according to your view, Adam did not love YHWH either or he wouldn't have tasted the fruit.

visionary · Aug 3, 2018

gadar perets said:
Of course it is speculative. So is your view. What does it matter whether he ate for Eve's sake or he ate for selfish reasons? Either way, he did not love YHWH enough to obey.

Yes, that is easy for you to say looking back on those events and having YHWH's words to Moses above. Adam didn't have that advantage. All he had was a wife who was the only woman in the world and who had fallen before his eyes.

Eve was not stiffnecked. She was deceived into thinking it was OK to eat the fruit.

And according to your view, Adam did not love YHWH either or he wouldn't have tasted the fruit.

That is true, that conversation with Eve was enough to give any listening ears the jist of what is about to happen. Temptation would have been intriguing to those innocent ears. Where it ran afoul was after Eve ate, Adam could detect a difference even if he couldn't put his finger on it. He ate knowing what happened to Eve will happen to him for consuming the fruit. I could have been as simple as the shekinah glory leaving her naked.

Heber Book List · Aug 4, 2018

gadar perets · Aug 4, 2018

A few more thoughts about Eve ...

Keep in mind that she was deceived, not "stiffnecked". The serpent lied to her, but at that time she had no idea that lies even existed. No one had ever lied before so she had no idea what a lie was. Nor did she know that the serpent was evil as we do. She did not have Scripture to teach her that.

Concerning the theory that Eve was a liberated woman who did as she pleased, it is my belief that prior to the fall Adam and Eve were equals with Adam not having the rule/authority over Eve. The only one that had the rule over Eve was YHWH. We do not know how much Eve knew about YHWH. Did she even know that YHWH had the rule over the serpent/Satan? Did she know that Satan was not another elohim that had authority over her? It is so easy for us to look back and condemn Eve based on what we know about YHWH and Satan today, but I doubt she had that same knowledge. She was an innocent new creature that was just learning and Satan deceived her before she knew too much about YHWH and before she found out exactly who the serpent was.

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