When does the end times begin?

jgr

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I have been saved from my enemies.

4The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.

5The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.

7The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry.

Metaphor as to say, God moved Hesven and earth for me, in order to save me from my enemies.

8Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.

9He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

10He mounted the cherubim and flew;

These play on words are hyperboles, meant to invoke emotions.

God when declaring Judgement, does not use play on words or hyperboles. The Psalmist does.

Psalms 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

Isaiah 13
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


There is no essential difference in the language and tone of these verses. Both are hyperbolic, metaphoric, apocalyptic, and idiomatic.

Both refer to actual historical events -- David's deliverance from Saul, and Babylon's destruction.
 
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The Times

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Psalms 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

Isaiah 13
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


There is no essential difference in the language and tone of these verses. Both are hyperbolic, metaphoric, apocalyptic, and idiomatic.

Both refer to actual historical events -- David's deliverance from Saul, and Babylon's destruction.

Different text types.

Psalm 18 is a Litarary Text Type. David the Psalmist provides a Litarary Description of himself, what he faced at the hands of his enemies and how God would move Heaven and Earth to save him from their hands. He does this using hyperboles which matches his imaginative way of selling his story.

Isaiah 13 on the other hand is a Factual Text Type, which is the way God gives his Information Reporting on what he will do to Babylon. It describes and gives factual information about people, animals, things as to relating to a Judgment declaration.

You stated......

"Both are hyperbolic, metaphoric, apocalyptic, and idiomatic."

This is not correct, you can obviously discern that from the different Text Types, can't you?
 
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keras

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Can't desecrate what would in itself be an abomination.
Ezekiel 43:1-4 says that the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the new Temple.
Prophecy is clear; there will be a new Temple, God wanted one twice before and when all the Lords faithful people are living in all of the holy Land, a center of worship will be required. It is seen there after Jesus Returns in Zechariah 14:16-21
 
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jgr

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Different text types.

Psalm 18 is a Litarary Text Type. David the Psalmist provides a Litarary Description of himself, what he faced at the hands of his enemies and how God would move Heaven and Earth to save him from their hands. He does this using hyperboles which matches his imaginative way of selling his story.

Isaiah 13 on the other hand is a Factual Text Type, which is the way God gives his Information Reporting on what he will do to Babylon. It describes and gives factual information about people, animals, things as to relating to a Judgment declaration.

You stated......

"Both are hyperbolic, metaphoric, apocalyptic, and idiomatic."

This is not correct, you can obviously discern that from the different Text Types, can't you?

Both verses are factual in that they symbolically refer to historical events which in fact occurred; David's deliverance, and Babylon's destruction.
 
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The Times

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Both verses are factual in that they symbolically refer to historical events which in fact occurred; David's deliverance, and Babylon's destruction.

Besides them being factual events, the way the text is delivered is the Text Type and in this detail, we discern what is imaginative text and what is factual text. In this case the Psalmist uses Litarary Text Type by using imaginative hyperbole of Heaven and Earth, in contrast God uses a Factual Text Type in that the Heaven and Earth are not hyperbole, but result in the natural realm as devastations to human life, animal life, plant life etc.
 
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The Times

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Do you sincerely believe that God is using a Pun to declare what he is about to do to humanity?

Come on, this is not a hyperbole, it is serious and for real, not an imaginative Litarary Text Type.

God declares....

I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.

Please explain to me how this is a play on words.
 
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jgr

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Besides them being factual events, the way the text is delivered is the Text Type and in this detail, we discern what is imaginative text and what is factual text. In this case the Psalmist uses Litarary Text Type by using imaginative hyperbole of Heaven and Earth, in contrast God uses a Factual Text Type in that the Heaven and Earth are not hyperbole, but result in the natural realm as devastations to human life, animal life, plant life etc.

I don't disagree with your classifications. The points I'm attempting to make are:
1. Both verses use symbolic language.
2. Both verses apply to factual historical events which have already occurred.
 
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keras

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Both verses are factual in that they symbolically refer to historical events which in fact occurred; David's deliverance, and Babylon's destruction.
This guesswork is seriously bad to promote, without any proof from the Bible accounts and from the historical records.
Its just as bad as those who talk of a 'rapture to heaven', with no scriptural support.
There was no cosmic disturbance when Babylon fell, or anything like what the prophesies tell us. So what is plainly told to us in Isaiah 13 and Psalms 18:7-15, are unfulfilled prophesies.
This is confirmed when all the prophesies about the Lord's terrible Day of wrath are sorted into a coherent narrative.

Those who like to think all those nasty things happened a long time ago, or who just spiritualize them, or: as most Church members do: ignore them altogether, are making it hard for themselves when the Lord does take action, as He has so comprehensively told us He will.
Not the best, to be in the dark about God's plans for the end times.
 
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keras

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we discern what is imaginative text and what is factual text.
Obviously you do it just by private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20
Your ideas are pedantic nonsense, How can you be sure of what is imaginative or factual? Anyway, if so; why has God given us fairy tales?

Your learned and wise posts place you squarely in the category of those whom God has hidden the truth from. Matthew 11:25
 
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jgr

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This guesswork is seriously bad to promote, without any proof from the Bible accounts and from the historical records.
Its just as bad as those who talk of a 'rapture to heaven', with no scriptural support.
There was no cosmic disturbance when Babylon fell, or anything like what the prophesies tell us. So what is plainly told to us in Isaiah 13 and Psalms 18:7-15, are unfulfilled prophesies.
This is confirmed when all the prophesies about the Lord's terrible Day of wrath are sorted into a coherent narrative.

Those who like to think all those nasty things happened a long time ago, or who just spiritualize them, or: as most Church members do: ignore them altogether, are making it hard for themselves when the Lord does take action, as He has so comprehensively told us He will.
Not the best, to be in the dark about God's plans for the end times.

Psalms 18
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

You don't believe David?
Then = at the time that he called upon the Lord
 
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keras

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You don't believe David?
Then = at the time that he called upon the Lord
David was a prophet. God used him, like all the other prophets to tell us, now at the end of the 6000 year period decreed for mankind's rule, about His plans.
Maybe God did help David with a little earthquake, if He did; it isn't mentioned elsewhere. You display how biased and one-eyed you are, by omitting the rest of Psalms 18:8-15, things that surely didn't happen then.

Note that Psalm 18:6-15, is taken verbatim from 2 Samuel 22:8-16.
There; David sings it AFTER the Lord had delivered him from all his enemies.
It is obviously unfulfilled prophecy and it fits with all the other detailed prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal.
 
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jgr

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David was a prophet. God used him, like all the other prophets to tell us, now at the end of the 6000 year period decreed for mankind's rule, about His plans.
Maybe God did help David with a little earthquake, if He did; it isn't mentioned elsewhere. You display how biased and one-eyed you are, by omitting the rest of Psalms 18:8-15, things that surely didn't happen then.

Note that Psalm 18:6-15, is taken verbatim from 2 Samuel 22:8-16.
There; David sings it AFTER the Lord had delivered him from all his enemies.
It is obviously unfulfilled prophecy and it fits with all the other detailed prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal.
You're right; much or most of what appears in the Psalm did not literally occur. But David chose to express himself in this way to reinforce the significance of his personal experience. And he most certainly did so.

Why do you insist on neutering his choices of expression?
 
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Traveling teacher

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some of the details on Jesus return and judgement of the earth and the people on the earth or veiled.......we dont need all the details....

But believers and unbelievers need to know he is coming with a NEW ROLE and anointing as a KING in His 2nd coming......

PROPHET PRIEST KING
1st coming - PROPHET.....lamb of God and blood sacrifice
for the sins of man
Today - great High Priest praying for our turning to the Father

2nd Coming - KING....Lion of the Tribe of Judah....

Revelation 19:11-16
"KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."...
who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
His eyes are a flame of fire, ..with a robe dipped in blood....
revelation 2:7
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron

the GOOD NEWS is He will not mess with the wicked.....
there will be a new sheriff in town.....

bad news is that we are in the DAYS OF NOAH
and there are scoffers who willfully sin and see no consequence....
SAD TO SAY in many churches there is no fear of God.....
AND LONGING FOR HIS COMING
 
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keras

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You're right; much or most of what appears in the Psalm did not literally occur. But David chose to express himself in this way to reinforce the significance of his personal experience. And he most certainly did so.

Why do you insist on neutering his choices of expression?
David was prophesying. What he said probably did comfort him at the time, but it applies to a time far distant to his day.
What I insist on is that we take prophecy literally, unless it has passed; as only a very small part has, with Jesus first Advent and the exile of Israel and Judah. Even the allegories and metaphors used can often be related to real things.

Psalms 17:13-15 Rise up, Lord and confront Your enemies and bring them down. Save us from the godless, by Your Hand; make an end to them, all those whose reward is of this world. May Your [faithful Christian] people, whom You cherish, have food in plenty, may their children have wealth and prosperity. Our plea to You is just: May we see and be blest with a vision of Your holiness.

Psalms 21:8-12 Your Hand will reach Your enemies, God’s Right hand will seize His foes. In His anger, when He acts, He will engulf them in a fiery furnace. Fire will consume them and it will rid mankind of their posterity. Though they plot evil against You and devise wicked schemes, they cannot succeed, for the Lord will aim His wrath at them and force them into flight. The Psalms 83 attack, resulting in their demise.

Psalms 18:7-15 The earth shook because of His anger. Smoke, searing heat and devouring fire come out, as He parts the heavens. Thick darkness and vapour cover around Him, as a hail of glowing coals, lightning shafts and thunderous noise accompany Him. The earths foundations are laid bare at His rebuke, at the blast of His breath.

This is the ‘Great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath”, which is the Sixth Seal event and is described in many prophesies: Isaiah 2:14-18, Jeremiah 23:19-20, Ezekiel 20:47-48, Joel 2:1-11, Amos 8:8-9, Micah 1:4, Habakkuk 3:9-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Haggai 2:21-22, Zechariah 9:14, Malachi 4:1, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7

A Day of darkness, not of light’, quite different from His Return in glory: Matt 24:30
It is the next prophesied event, that will clear the holy Land in preparation for the great gathering of His people in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
Psalms 19:7-11 The Laws of the Lord are perfect and revive the soul, His instructions never fail, they make the unlearned wise. His commands and precepts are right and pure, they give joy and understanding. The Lord’s judgements are true and righteous, by them, Your servants are warned, in obeying Him there is great reward.
 
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jgr

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David was prophesying. What he said probably did comfort him at the time, but it applies to a time far distant to his day.
What I insist on is that we take prophecy literally, unless it has passed; as only a very small part has, with Jesus first Advent and the exile of Israel and Judah. Even the allegories and metaphors used can often be related to real things.

Psalms 17:13-15 Rise up, Lord and confront Your enemies and bring them down. Save us from the godless, by Your Hand; make an end to them, all those whose reward is of this world. May Your [faithful Christian] people, whom You cherish, have food in plenty, may their children have wealth and prosperity. Our plea to You is just: May we see and be blest with a vision of Your holiness.

Psalms 21:8-12 Your Hand will reach Your enemies, God’s Right hand will seize His foes. In His anger, when He acts, He will engulf them in a fiery furnace. Fire will consume them and it will rid mankind of their posterity. Though they plot evil against You and devise wicked schemes, they cannot succeed, for the Lord will aim His wrath at them and force them into flight. The Psalms 83 attack, resulting in their demise.

Psalms 18:7-15 The earth shook because of His anger. Smoke, searing heat and devouring fire come out, as He parts the heavens. Thick darkness and vapour cover around Him, as a hail of glowing coals, lightning shafts and thunderous noise accompany Him. The earths foundations are laid bare at His rebuke, at the blast of His breath.

This is the ‘Great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath”, which is the Sixth Seal event and is described in many prophesies: Isaiah 2:14-18, Jeremiah 23:19-20, Ezekiel 20:47-48, Joel 2:1-11, Amos 8:8-9, Micah 1:4, Habakkuk 3:9-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Haggai 2:21-22, Zechariah 9:14, Malachi 4:1, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7

A Day of darkness, not of light’, quite different from His Return in glory: Matt 24:30
It is the next prophesied event, that will clear the holy Land in preparation for the great gathering of His people in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
Psalms 19:7-11 The Laws of the Lord are perfect and revive the soul, His instructions never fail, they make the unlearned wise. His commands and precepts are right and pure, they give joy and understanding. The Lord’s judgements are true and righteous, by them, Your servants are warned, in obeying Him there is great reward.

There are some of David's prophecies that you've been missing, so I've added them below. Remember that prophecy is as much or more forthtelling as it is foretelling. These prophecies reveal David's recognition in his day of God's Kingdom as an existing, continuing, and everlasting, reality.

Psalm 22:28
For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Psalm 103:19
The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Psalm 145:13
Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
 
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keras

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There are some of David's prophecies that you've been missing, so I've added them below. Remember that prophecy is as much or more forthtelling as it is foretelling. These prophecies reveal David's recognition in his day of God's Kingdom as an existing, continuing, and everlasting, reality.
Funny, I had the impression that Donald Trump was Americas leader.
We in New Zealand have Jacinda Adern as our Prime minister. She just gave birth to another NZ citizen!

Your contention of God's Kingdom on earth now, is just a dream; albeit that will one day become a reality. Meanwhile we must read the verses you quoted, as future promises and prophecy, like Psalms 18.
 
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jgr

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Funny, I had the impression that Donald Trump was Americas leader.
We in New Zealand have Jacinda Adern as our Prime minister. She just gave birth to another NZ citizen!

Your contention of God's Kingdom on earth now, is just a dream; albeit that will one day become a reality. Meanwhile we must read the verses you quoted, as future promises and prophecy, like Psalms 18.
Why not just say that you believe that David didn't know what he was talking about?
 
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keras

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Why not just say that you believe that David didn't know what he was talking about?
David knew he was prophesying. Like all of the Bible prophets, they couldn't see how and when their Words would be fulfilled.
Now those Words are part of our Bibles. You think we should ignore them?
 
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jgr

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David knew he was prophesying. Like all of the Bible prophets, they couldn't see how and when their Words would be fulfilled.
Now those Words are part of our Bibles. You think we should ignore them?
David saw that the Kingdom of God was a fulfilled reality, but he couldn't see that the Kingdom of God was not a fulfilled reality.

That's logic (sic) that only a futurist could understand.
 
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jgr

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Like all of the Bible prophets, they couldn't see how and when their Words would be fulfilled.

That is demonstrably errant.

I'll leave it to our readers to decide who can't see how and when their words were fulfilled.


Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Acts 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Acts 3:18
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:24
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Acts 7:37
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 26:22
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Romans 1:1,2
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

2 Peter 3:2
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
 
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