The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
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i'm reading Zender's book 'the first idiot in heaven'
and he is of the belief that everything is going as planned... and obviously God has a plan to save us... but God clearly said to me 'things aren't supposed to be this way!!!'
so does that mean that things AREN'T going according to plan? i'm just confused is all...
or does it mean that even if things don't go as planned, that God will just save us after a couple of eons anyway? after a stint in the lake of fire.
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There's different views on Sovereignty & freewill. It's a big subject. Many books written about them. And many threads on forums such as these. For a few opinions re Isa.45:7:
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/45-7.htm
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I should have added a note. By everything going according to plan i don't mean that freewill choices made against God's will are what God wanted, but that it was something He allowed within His overall plan that ultimately ends in Him being "all in all".
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Question #5= Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
Your response=
Is "pleasure" your standard for whether God is God? Why not recognize that the standard is that He is living, loving, personal, relational, and good?
My response=
The standard is that which the Father "cherishes" and to the Purpose in His beloved Son the Christ. He takes pleasure in what He has conceived and to that to which He moves in consultation with no one or thing.
Question#6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
Your response=
Jesus died for all. Yet not all will accept his sacrifice.
My response=
Not yet! In the end every knee bows, every tongue confesses IN the Name "You are Lord!" But wait, there is more! Every knee, every tongue in every dimension of our Father's world of the heavens, the earth & the underworld singing in antiphonal chorus of "You are worthy." This worship is not by perfunctory genuflections but arising out of what it means to be INChrist!
Jesus died for all. He is the hilasmos of the holos, His propitiation is not for the "especially" ONLY, nor only for the elect. He is the propitiation for the whole enchilada. Do you remember the '"silly childish" equation?
"the polus are made sinners">>>>>>>>"the polus are made righteous." Not accounted righteous: made righteous.
Question#7=
If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
Your response=
Declaring the end point of a race doesn't mean the person who set the finish line knows who will race, let alone win.
Declaring the destination for a plane doesn't mean the scheduler knows who will be on that plane.
My response=
You talk of a scheduler, I speak of a Scheduler! You speak of a person, I speak of a Person who has made all as the Source, Guide and Goal!
Question#8=
Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
Your response=
God cannot be good if, like a sadist and kidnapper, He keeps those who do not want to be with Him in His presence for all eternity. And if God is not good, then He is not God, because God is good.
My response=
Every last one has been made by God and for God. Every last one will be consummated ultimately in Him! His essence is Savour, Love, Spirit and Light, all of which flow in harmony to His Purpose IN Christ Jesus the Lord!
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A new Day breaks: some of you have been on this link for nearly one month, Yes, Hillsage our paths were destined to come together! Hugs came on the scene the next day. F.L. attempted to send her to another location on this vast site, but she has hung on in tears lots of days, but has actually provided inspiration. Yes Hugs, FL. loves you. Coming across to you now is a cyber hug.
Never when this link began did I remotely imagine there would be anything but resistance. The entire endeavour has been pure joy! For you that continue to tune in this song is dedicated>>>>>>
Never when this link began did I remotely imagine there would be anything but resistance. The entire endeavour has been pure joy! For you that continue to tune in this song is dedicated>>>>>>
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The Atonement: What did it really accomplish?
#1. At one ment
#2. "Helpless ungodly" welcomed Home to Abba..
#3. The helpless sinners were not good and loveable.
#4. Helpless sinners proclaimed free from guilt through the blood of the Lamb.
#5. God's free "gift" outweighs all transgression.
# 6. The reconciliation is "now."
#7. The comparison? There is no comparison.
#8. The "free gift outweighs" the transgression.
#9. The free gift "immeasurably" outweighs the transgression.
#10. The "mass" of mankind "constituted sinners" the "mass of mankind "constituted righteous".
#11. Polus= polus. The mass made sinners= the mass made righteous.
#12. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, AKA the "especially"/ the "elect".
#13. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the "helpless sinners."
#14. The result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race.
#15.The result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
Romans 5
"For already, while we were still helpless, Christ at the right moment died for the ungodly.
7
Why, it is scarcely conceivable that any one would die for a simply just man, although for a good and lovable man perhaps some one, here and there, will have the courage even to lay down his life.
8
But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.
9
If therefore we have now been pronounced free from guilt through His blood, much more shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him.
10
For if while we were hostile to God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, it is still more certain that now that we are reconciled, we shall obtain salvation through Christ's life.
11
And not only so, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now obtained that reconciliation.
12
What follows? This comparison. Through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and so death passed to all mankind in turn, in that all sinned.
13
For prior to the Law sin was already in the world; only it is not entered in the account against us when no Law exists.
14
Yet Death reigned as king from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned, as Adam did, against Law. And in Adam we have a type of Him whose coming was still future.
15
But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.
16
And it is not with the gift as it was with the results of one individual's sin; for the judgement which one individual provoked resulted in condemnation, whereas the free gift after a multitude of transgressions results in acquittal.
17
For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.
18
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
19
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous."
Romans Chapter 5 - Weymouth New Testament
The mass = polus
The mass of mankind are "made sinners."
The mass of mankind are "made righteous."
The equation is equal on each side
#1. At one ment
#2. "Helpless ungodly" welcomed Home to Abba..
#3. The helpless sinners were not good and loveable.
#4. Helpless sinners proclaimed free from guilt through the blood of the Lamb.
#5. God's free "gift" outweighs all transgression.
# 6. The reconciliation is "now."
#7. The comparison? There is no comparison.
#8. The "free gift outweighs" the transgression.
#9. The free gift "immeasurably" outweighs the transgression.
#10. The "mass" of mankind "constituted sinners" the "mass of mankind "constituted righteous".
#11. Polus= polus. The mass made sinners= the mass made righteous.
#12. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, AKA the "especially"/ the "elect".
#13. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the "helpless sinners."
#14. The result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race.
#15.The result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
Romans 5
"For already, while we were still helpless, Christ at the right moment died for the ungodly.
7
Why, it is scarcely conceivable that any one would die for a simply just man, although for a good and lovable man perhaps some one, here and there, will have the courage even to lay down his life.
8
But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.
9
If therefore we have now been pronounced free from guilt through His blood, much more shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him.
10
For if while we were hostile to God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, it is still more certain that now that we are reconciled, we shall obtain salvation through Christ's life.
11
And not only so, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now obtained that reconciliation.
12
What follows? This comparison. Through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and so death passed to all mankind in turn, in that all sinned.
13
For prior to the Law sin was already in the world; only it is not entered in the account against us when no Law exists.
14
Yet Death reigned as king from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned, as Adam did, against Law. And in Adam we have a type of Him whose coming was still future.
15
But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.
16
And it is not with the gift as it was with the results of one individual's sin; for the judgement which one individual provoked resulted in condemnation, whereas the free gift after a multitude of transgressions results in acquittal.
17
For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.
18
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
19
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous."
Romans Chapter 5 - Weymouth New Testament
The mass = polus
The mass of mankind are "made sinners."
The mass of mankind are "made righteous."
The equation is equal on each side
Upvote
0
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I think that's the accurate way to answer - that He created the possibility for evil. But....He also knows that -in the end- evil/death will be no more. His love will ultimately win out.
That may be what's confusing you (to phrase things in the way that "evil is God's idea"). I think a better way to put that may be that He wasn't/isn't surprised or caught off guard not knowing what to do about it.
Does that make sense?
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I'm fairly certain that Rev Ed Bacon would agree with our view (but it's not usually his topic of writing/speaking). I can't think of any other names right off the top of my head, though (but I'm certain there *are* many other Anglicans/Episcopalians with our view).
ETA: I believe Bishop Michael Curry may be a believer of universal reconciliation. During his sermon at the royal wedding he repeatedly said that Jesus “died to save us all!” (and even Tweeted it that day). And another quote from his sermon that day, "We were made by a power of Love. Our lives are meant to be lived in that love—that’s why we are here. Ultimately, the source of love is God himself—the source of all of our lives."
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Dear mkgal1: I do appreciate your post. I have walked in past years with incredible ministers who for one reason or another never spoke of the Restitution. Later I discovered they were "secret" believers. I wish I could be a secret believer but the Fire will not allow me.
I firmly believe "the list" covers some larger names, but there are those who grasp the Love that will not let us go. The Author of Love, "the source of love" is indeed the Source of our lives! I am pleased you have joined us here.You have much to contribute!
From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends..."
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
'1 Peter 3:17 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
17 For if God has in fact willed that you should suffer, it is better that you suffer for doing what is good than for doing what is evil. '
i.e. suffering for doing what is evil, for making others stumble and lose their souls because of false teaching
is not a good thing nor is it joy at all !
When you see resistance to your false gospel message, do not rejoice, for so much is wrong - rather repent , and seek Yahweh if He may still be found (if it is not too late).
17 For if God has in fact willed that you should suffer, it is better that you suffer for doing what is good than for doing what is evil. '
i.e. suffering for doing what is evil, for making others stumble and lose their souls because of false teaching
is not a good thing nor is it joy at all !
When you see resistance to your false gospel message, do not rejoice, for so much is wrong - rather repent , and seek Yahweh if He may still be found (if it is not too late).
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It has been well said that there is no such thing as "pure evil ;" "so unrestrained is the inundation of the principle of good into selfishness and sin itself." - EMERSON on Circles. "There is a soul of goodness in things evil," says the greatest of Englishmen.
We have hints in Scripture that by evil permitted and overcome, something is gained which, perhaps, could not have been otherwise had, e.g., there is "more joy over one repenting sinner, than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." And if there is more joy in heaven, there is more love on earth from the same source, "for to whom little is forgiven the same loves little." Sin is very often the result of ignorance; how far this consideration goes I do not decide, but may there not be an element of ignorance in all sin?
Nor should we forget that in sinning, if I may say so, the raw material is very often the same as in the practice of virtue, but turned the wrong way - "there is," says EMERSON, "no moral deformity but is a good passion out of place. I have steadily enforced the guilt of sin, but it remains true that to sin greatly often demands the same qualities, that rightly used would have been great virtues.
Whatever the value of the above considerations, the larger hope has nothing to fear from any theory of sin that can be maintained. Take a lenient view of human guilt, and you thereby shut out endless penalty. Take the very sternest view, and the perpetuation of this awful hostility to God becomes inconceivable.
A further consideration remains. As creation is for the Deity to enter into finite relations, and to subject His plans to definite limits, so, perhaps, evil, physical and moral, is in a sense inevitable. And it may be that, by the training and collision, thus involved, a higher type of character is formed than would be otherwise possible, e.g., self sacrifice, self restraint, sympathy, mercy, etc., seem to require a background of evil for their existence; although I believe that certain results of this have not always been thought out by its advocates.
A creation thus advancing to perfection by a certain, if slow, victory over evil, may possibly be a nobler thing than a creation so safeguarded as to have never fallen. In S. BERNARD'S words, "ordinatissimum est minus interdum ordinate fieri aliquid." - Ep. xxvi., ad. Eug. iii. I shall neither affirm, nor deny, these propositions. But morality and reason require one thing, viz., that creation shall be in fact so advancing; that the victory over evil shall be a victory indeed, and not a compromise - i.e., they require not partialism in any form, but Universalism.
Evil in process of extinction, nay, in the divine plan already extinguished - is tolerable.
Evil permitted for a time, in order that it may be more completely vanquished, and men thereby trained - that we can understand. But when evil, moral or physical, becomes perpetual; when it ceases to be a means and becomes an end; when it is no merely passing stain, but is wrought into the very tissue of the universe - enduring as God Himself: when God is taught as freely and deliberately permitting the entrance of evil, destined, as He knows, to be an eternal horror in His creation; then we are compelled to refuse assent, compelled by our very reverence for God, by the supreme voice within, which if God anywhere speaks with man, is indeed His voice.
-Christ Triumphant-
We have hints in Scripture that by evil permitted and overcome, something is gained which, perhaps, could not have been otherwise had, e.g., there is "more joy over one repenting sinner, than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." And if there is more joy in heaven, there is more love on earth from the same source, "for to whom little is forgiven the same loves little." Sin is very often the result of ignorance; how far this consideration goes I do not decide, but may there not be an element of ignorance in all sin?
Nor should we forget that in sinning, if I may say so, the raw material is very often the same as in the practice of virtue, but turned the wrong way - "there is," says EMERSON, "no moral deformity but is a good passion out of place. I have steadily enforced the guilt of sin, but it remains true that to sin greatly often demands the same qualities, that rightly used would have been great virtues.
Whatever the value of the above considerations, the larger hope has nothing to fear from any theory of sin that can be maintained. Take a lenient view of human guilt, and you thereby shut out endless penalty. Take the very sternest view, and the perpetuation of this awful hostility to God becomes inconceivable.
A further consideration remains. As creation is for the Deity to enter into finite relations, and to subject His plans to definite limits, so, perhaps, evil, physical and moral, is in a sense inevitable. And it may be that, by the training and collision, thus involved, a higher type of character is formed than would be otherwise possible, e.g., self sacrifice, self restraint, sympathy, mercy, etc., seem to require a background of evil for their existence; although I believe that certain results of this have not always been thought out by its advocates.
A creation thus advancing to perfection by a certain, if slow, victory over evil, may possibly be a nobler thing than a creation so safeguarded as to have never fallen. In S. BERNARD'S words, "ordinatissimum est minus interdum ordinate fieri aliquid." - Ep. xxvi., ad. Eug. iii. I shall neither affirm, nor deny, these propositions. But morality and reason require one thing, viz., that creation shall be in fact so advancing; that the victory over evil shall be a victory indeed, and not a compromise - i.e., they require not partialism in any form, but Universalism.
Evil in process of extinction, nay, in the divine plan already extinguished - is tolerable.
Evil permitted for a time, in order that it may be more completely vanquished, and men thereby trained - that we can understand. But when evil, moral or physical, becomes perpetual; when it ceases to be a means and becomes an end; when it is no merely passing stain, but is wrought into the very tissue of the universe - enduring as God Himself: when God is taught as freely and deliberately permitting the entrance of evil, destined, as He knows, to be an eternal horror in His creation; then we are compelled to refuse assent, compelled by our very reverence for God, by the supreme voice within, which if God anywhere speaks with man, is indeed His voice.
-Christ Triumphant-
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"The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free/emancipated..."
"In my opinion whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us. The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God's purpose it has been so limited - yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay, and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God!"
"In my opinion whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us. The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God's purpose it has been so limited - yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay, and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God!"
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needhugs
Flibbertyjibbet
Martin Zender says believing in free will i super freakin' bad lol i just bought his book on the subject... if we do things against God's will that screw up God's plan for how things should be... God means 'subjector'... and if our will subjects God's will that makes us the potter and God the clay... he says it's a super evil doctrine, that we have free will... and i see his point, but if God is TOTALLY sovereign, then how come things aren't supposed to be this way??
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