Liberal double standard

First to conter anothers argument science cannot tell us when a human becomes human.  It can tell us when someting is alive but philosophy/theology is the tool to tell us if something is human through the analyzing of scientific and other evidences. 

Today at 07:43 AM juiblex said this in Post #12

The very simple thing is, until it is self-sufficient and all its senses have developed/a significant of percentage of senses have developed <OR develop to going are which those>, it cannot be classified as human, it is nothing more than cells with DNA.

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So a baby just born is not human?&nbsp; It is not self sufficient.&nbsp; Unless you define self sufficiency in a different way than I do.&nbsp; Basically a newborn cannot take care of itself.&nbsp; It needs an older human to feed it nd take care of it if it is going to live.&nbsp; I do not want to argue against a strawman so please define what you relaly mean by self sufficient.

Personally I think there are two main places to determine when humanity begins.&nbsp; At birth or conception.&nbsp; They make the most sense. If you place it somewhere in between then it gets all subjective.&nbsp; When is a fetus developed enough?&nbsp;

I think conception is the most logical choice becuase I do not think that a baby who is minutes before birth but inside the womb is not a human.&nbsp;Birth also is weird because we have babies born earlier than others.&nbsp; So again it gets pretty subjective.&nbsp;

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written in Exodus 21:22-24
Here goes:
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

You are correct....under the law the WOMAN was the property of her husband and judgement came according to the husband. It doesn't say anything in this verse about the child. The important thing to remember in which many among the abortion debate tiptoe around, is this; the sactity of life is clearly laid out in scripture. David, one of the earliest confessors that "God is the author of life." Job speaks of God being intimately involved in his life from the time he was conceived.

God deals with human beings as creatures made in His image and determines His plan for them before they are born.

The closest view from God on the sanctity of life of the unborn comes from Matthew 1:18-20 and Luke 1:24-56. It is significant that the very first celebration of the coming of the Messiah was initiated by John, an unborn child!!!

Today at 12:14 PM MG said this in Post #22
You are correct....under the law the WOMAN was the property of her husband and judgement came according to the husband. It doesn't say anything in this verse about the child.

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Right.

And if the child were, in fact, a person, it *WOULD* say something about the child, but it doesn't, because, to the Hebrews, unborn children were just a *chance* of having a baby, and were not yet people.

God deals with human beings as creatures made in His image and determines His plan for them before they are born.

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And, for 40% of the humans ever conceived, His plan is "die before you've even formed a brain, let alone taken your first breath".

Or, perhaps, He knows who does and doesn't get born, and souls are a property of those who will be born.

Face it; in the Bible, unborn babies aren't people. God knows us before we're even *conceived*, so His knowledge of us is rooted in His eternal nature, not in whether or not we're "alive" at a given point.

Today at 11:40 AM Blackhawk said this in Post #21
Personally I think there are two main places to determine when humanity begins.&nbsp; At birth or conception.&nbsp; They make the most sense. If you place it somewhere in between then it gets all subjective.&nbsp; When is a fetus developed enough?&nbsp;

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It seems to me that, in moral issues, we probably ought to *prefer* answers which come down to "we don't know for sure, only God knows", because that's almost always the true answer.

I think conception is the most logical choice becuase I do not think that a baby who is minutes before birth but inside the womb is not a human.&nbsp;Birth also is weird because we have babies born earlier than others.&nbsp; So again it gets pretty subjective.&nbsp;

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But if people are "people" at conception, 40% of all people ever died before they had any kind of nervous system at all, and I'm not counting abortions, just the *natural* rate of miscarriage!

Until I see people buying a tombstone for a zygote that aborted before a home pregnancy test kit could even have detected it, I'm not going to believe that "personhood" comes at conception.

seebs said this in Post #23


Or, perhaps, He knows who does and doesn't get born, and souls are a property of those who will be born.

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What??? Are you ASSUMING that an unborn child aborted, miscarried, etc does not have a soul?

seebs said
Face it; in the Bible, unborn babies aren't people. God knows us before we're even *conceived*, so His knowledge of us is rooted in His eternal nature, not in whether or not we're "alive" at a given point.

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Again, WHAT??? LOL His knowledge of us is rooted in His eternal nature? Maybe you could elaborate on this because I am not getting you.....

I don't give a hoot about worldly definition of "personhood".&nbsp;

Do you or do you not believe that life is created by God?

One more thing, I care not to argue whether or not a person is a person if the stakes are right according to Joe Blow sitting on his high horse down at the local FDA. What I do care about is the astounding numbers of aborted lives. Now do you say that abortion is okay because A: its legal and it is a womans right and also B: an unborn fetus can stay or go it doesnt matter to me, the government, or God because it really isn't a person.

That is what I am getting from you and I want to understand you fully.

Today at 12:42 PM MG said this in Post #25

What??? Are you ASSUMING that an unborn child aborted, miscarried, etc does not have a soul?

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No. I'm saying that we have no reason to believe it does, and that the Bible clearly does not treat such a thing as a "person".

Again, WHAT??? LOL His knowledge of us is rooted in His eternal nature? Maybe you could elaborate on this because I am not getting you.....

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The argument that God knows us before we're born is uninformative. Two thousand years ago, God knew you. You weren't conceived yet, but He still knew you.

Knowing that God knows us before we're born doesn't tell us that we're "people" at any given point; after all, we can hardly claim that you were a "person" two thousand years ago, but God knew you then, too.

I don't give a hoot about worldly definition of "personhood".&nbsp;

Do you or do you not believe that life is created by God?

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Life? No. Life is created by biological processes, which God presumably willed to be, but the individual creation of biological life is something that happens without any reason for me to believe that God is actively intervening in it. It happens in millions of different species all the time, and I don't think God needs to do anything about it.

Souls? Seems to me that God creates them.

*When*, however, He creates a soul, or attaches a soul to a body... That I don't know. From the clear statements in the Bible about the value of life, it is clear that God did not feel that His chosen people needed to treat unborn babies as "human lives", but as property, the loss of which was a damage done to the parents.

Similarly, we know that about 40% of all biologically-human entities conceived spontaneously miscarry long before they would come to term. The majority do so unmourned and unnoticed. It is clear that they are not "people" in any sense we understand.

So, it seems to me that God provides souls if and when they are needed. There's substantial Biblical support for the belief that He does this at birth.

The argument that a baby nearly old enough to be born, but not yet born, is biologically similar to a baby which has been born carries no weight, here; we're talking about souls, which we cannot detect or measure, and we have no way of knowing when God thinks we need them. After all, there are lots of things biologically just as complicated and interesting as an 8-month fetus, which we don't think have souls.

It's not something we know, and the only guidance we can find in the Bible on the issue is that the loss of a premature baby is a material damage to the parents, not a criminal offense against the "child".

Today at 12:48 PM MG said this in Post #26

One more thing, I care not to argue whether or not a person is a person if the stakes are right according to Joe Blow sitting on his high horse down at the local FDA. What I do care about is the astounding numbers of aborted lives. Now do you say that abortion is okay because A: its legal and it is a womans right and also B: an unborn fetus can stay or go it doesnt matter to me, the government, or God because it really isn't a person.

That is what I am getting from you and I want to understand you fully.

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I am saying I have no idea whether or not it's a person, but the only thing I can find in the Bible that clearly addresses the issue seems to suggest that it's not. It is, of course, possible that this is simply a reflection of the culture and values of the ancient Israelites, and not God's inspired moral code, but I'm not sure we want to open that can of worms.

If we take the Bible at face value, an unborn baby is not a "person", it's a piece of property belonging to the parents.

Today at 06:23 PM seebs said this in Post #24

It seems to me that, in moral issues, we probably ought to *prefer* answers which come down to "we don't know for sure, only God knows", because that's almost always the true answer.

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Although I do not know for sure 100% I think it is wrong to just go back to "God only knows" when he has given us a Bible to help us understand his will and doings.&nbsp; I am not saying that my opinion is God's opinion but I have an opinion and I think that is better than an "I do not know answer."&nbsp;

But if people are "people" at conception, 40% of all people ever died before they had any kind of nervous system at all, and I'm not counting abortions, just the *natural* rate of miscarriage!

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Well first God&nbsp;allowing a miscarraige is very different than an abortion.&nbsp; Second I believe that a nervous system is not&nbsp; neccesary for one to be a person in the eyes of God.&nbsp; I see God froming us in the womb.&nbsp; I see Him knitting us together.&nbsp; He was not knitting together an "it" but an "us".&nbsp;WE were an "us" then and we are an "us" now.&nbsp;

Until I see people buying a tombstone for a zygote that aborted before a home pregnancy test kit could even have detected it, I'm not going to believe that "personhood" comes at conception.

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What does that have anything to do with it?&nbsp; Was slavery wrong if no person thought it was wrong?&nbsp; I think so because God determines what is right and wrong not people.&nbsp; So people buying a tombstones or not has no bearing in my view.&nbsp;

Look at this from another angle, what are the reasons people usually (most often) have abortions.

Can't support the child = Lack of faith, God WILL provide

My figure = Selfishness, your figure isn't that important

Wrong time for a child, too early = We live by Gods timeing, how vain

I'm not married = Yea sure, killing the child anuls your premarital sex, uh huh... this is just avoiding consequences, cowardice

and on, and on, and on...

Abortion is usually done for shotty reasons (biblically speaking) to begin with.

Today at 01:39 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #29
Well first God&nbsp;allowing a miscarraige is very different than an abortion.&nbsp; Second I believe that a nervous system is not&nbsp; neccesary for one to be a person in the eyes of God.&nbsp; I see God froming us in the womb.&nbsp; I see Him knitting us together.&nbsp; He was not knitting together an "it" but an "us".&nbsp;WE were an "us" then and we are an "us" now.&nbsp;

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I think that was poetry used when we didn't know much about biology. I think what's necessary to be a person in the eyes of God is a soul, and I don't know when He provides them.

What does that have anything to do with it?&nbsp; Was slavery wrong if no person thought it was wrong?&nbsp; I think so because God determines what is right and wrong not people.&nbsp; So people buying a tombstones or not has no bearing in my view.&nbsp;

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Yeah, but God's opinion on this seems to be that unborn /homo sapiens/ are not "people"; if they were, killing one would have been murder, not property damage. That's what the Bible says.

The only way around it is to appeal to emotion, but if we look at what emotions people really have, we *know* that a spontaneous abortion 3 days into a pregnancy isn't the death of a "person".

Today at 01:39 PM Ryder said this in Post #30

Look at this from another angle, what are the reasons people usually (most often) have abortions.

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Totally and utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or not abortion is murder. It doesn't matter why people do it; if a clump of 8 cells is a "person", then it's a person no matter what.

Your argument might as well be applied to "reasons people don't buy new Porsches". After all, if the only reason you're not buying a new Porsche is that you can't afford one, that shows a lack of faith, won't God provide?

It's nonsense, pure and simple. We're expected to exercise a little common sense.

Today at 02:56 PM seebs said this in Post #32

Totally and utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or not abortion is murder. It doesn't matter why people do it; if a clump of 8 cells is a "person", then it's a person no matter what.

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Motive is&nbsp;very important, but I know what your saying, didn't realize that this was a kindof 'definition' debate, no prob.

To create a life, even if you do not want to call it human, and then to destroy that life because you are unwilling to accept responsibility for your actions is immoral no matter how you look at it. If the pro-life people would propose legistation making abortions illegal after the 1st trimester has ended, except in cases where the woman had been raped or where the pregancy threatened the womans life or the capacity to have children sometime in the future I think they could get it passed. In such a bill they should also propose legislation to help those who wish to addopt children and to provide all expenses for those who are willing to carry a child to term and then give her/him up for adoption.

Today at 07:54 PM seebs said this in Post #31

I think that was poetry used when we didn't know much about biology. I think what's necessary to be a person in the eyes of God is a soul, and I don't know when He provides them.

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We both agree that it is poetry.&nbsp;&nbsp;But that does not make the principle it is trying to teach not true.&nbsp; It seems that you are saying that it was just the hebrews talking about a biological childbirth instead of&nbsp;that it is speaking&nbsp;about God forming us in a spiritual way.&nbsp; I guess what I am trying to say is that are you saying that the Israelites were just ignornant so they made up poetry like this to describe childbirth?&nbsp;&nbsp;If not then how do you still get around the fact that God knew us in the womb?&nbsp; If so then I want to take issue with your exegesis.&nbsp;

Yeah, but God's opinion on this seems to be that unborn /homo sapiens/ are not "people"; if they were, killing one would have been murder, not property damage. That's what the Bible says.

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Where does the Bible say that the unborn are not people?&nbsp; It seems to say that the unborn are humans to me.&nbsp; I do not know how you can take a penalty of the law and then rationalize what subjects were human and what were not when the whole point of the passage is not about that in anyway.&nbsp;

The only way around it is to appeal to emotion, but if we look at what emotions people really have, we *know* that a spontaneous abortion 3 days into a pregnancy isn't the death of a "person".

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Huh?&nbsp; An appeal to emotions?&nbsp; When does how we fell affect who is a person or not?&nbsp; If we do not feel that bad about killing off the aged are they then not human?&nbsp; I know this is a strawman but I want to show how far this could go if we base our argument about the personhood of someone on the emotons we have for them.&nbsp;

Today at 04:04 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #35
We both agree that it is poetry.&nbsp;&nbsp;But that does not make the principle it is trying to teach not true.&nbsp; It seems that you are saying that it was just the hebrews talking about a biological childbirth instead of&nbsp;that it is speaking&nbsp;about God forming us in a spiritual way.&nbsp; I guess what I am trying to say is that are you saying that the Israelites were just ignornant so they made up poetry like this to describe childbirth?&nbsp;&nbsp;If not then how do you still get around the fact that God knew us in the womb?&nbsp; If so then I want to take issue with your exegesis.&nbsp;

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God knew us *before* we were in the womb, too. God knowing me at time X does not prove that I was a living person at time X. It only proves that I was at some point a living person, and that God is eternal. God knew us almost 2000 years ago, when He died on the cross for us; this doesn't mean we were "people" then.

My thinking is, if an egg gets fertilized, and then, two days later, never gets around to attaching to the uterus and gets flushed out with everything else, there was *never* a person; God didn't "know" that person, because there was never a person to know. On the other hand, if an egg attaches, and grows, and becomes a person, then God knew that person *before* that.

Where does the Bible say that the unborn are not people?&nbsp; It seems to say that the unborn are humans to me.&nbsp; I do not know how you can take a penalty of the law and then rationalize what subjects were human and what were not when the whole point of the passage is not about that in anyway.&nbsp;

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Because, if the unborn were a person, it *would* have been a murder case! The passage discusses the death of an unborn human, and does not even hint at murder, but there's no way it wouldn't have been treated as murder, had the authors believed that the unborn human was a "person". Killing a person for no reason is murder.

If we know that the penalty for murder is 5 years in prison, and we know that, whatever Bob did, the penalty for it was a $250 fine, we know with certainty that what Bob did wasn't murder. Injuring a woman such that she loses her baby is not murder; it's a more mild crime. This is *unambiguous* in the Old Testament.

If the unborn human had been a "person" in the eyes of the writers of the Law, then it would have been murder. No one would have overlooked something so major.

Huh?&nbsp; An appeal to emotions?&nbsp; When does how we fell affect who is a person or not?&nbsp; If we do not feel that bad about killing off the aged are they then not human?&nbsp; I know this is a strawman but I want to show how far this could go if we base our argument about the personhood of someone on the emotons we have for them.&nbsp;

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One of the guides to morality we have is that God's law is written upon our hearts. It is rare indeed for people to have no moral feelings.

Basically, one of the main arguments for considering unborn humans "people" from conception is a strongly emotional one - when we talk about abortion, it sounds like killing. But, when we talk about natural spontaneous miscarriages, it *doesn't* sound like a tragic death, just like something that happens maybe two times out of five when a woman gets pregnant; not that big a deal.

If you watch, the degree to which people are upset about miscarriages depends on how far along the pregnancy is; this corresponds very well to an increasing "personhood" in the fetus.

So a baby just born is not human? It is not self sufficient. Unless you define self sufficiency in a different way than I do. Basically a newborn cannot take care of itself. It needs an older human to feed it nd take care of it if it is going to live. I do not want to argue against a strawman so please define what you relaly mean by self sufficient.

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yes, youre right i should have worded it more carefully. When i say self sufficient, i mean that all its systems function together so that, with help on the outside world it could survive. Whether that means its hooked up to life-support for however long, it needs surgery to do so, or it simply fed to live, it is self sufficient in that it is <or can be> a fully contained and functioning life on its own. And this stage is achieved inside the womb which makes it applicable.

I think conception is the most logical choice becuase I do not think that a baby who is minutes before birth but inside the womb is not a human. Birth also is weird because we have babies born earlier than others. So again it gets pretty subjective.

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but you cannot say one single cell with DNA is a functioning life-form, it makes no sense whatsoever. At that stage its as much a life-form as cancer cells which divide and multiply.

Jubilex,
"amputating my arm would be considered murder"

Will your arm continue to grow? It is not alive apart from your body.

Blackhawk,
"Basically a newborn cannot take care of itself"
An invalid cannot take care of his/her self. Does this mean they are not alive? Viability is not a measure of when life exists.

Count to seven. Count to seven again.

Two babies have just been aborted in this country.
It averages out to happen every seven seconds around the clock.

What a terrible waste of God's precious gift of life.