The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

Welcome To What Abba Cherishes

"For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One.

It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.

In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ."

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

Rethinking Hell=

http://rethinkinghell.com/2014/12/20/clark-pinnock-hell-and-the-holiness-of-god/

How Eternity Slipped In

HD HOW ETERNITY SLIPPED IN

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Thomson/HowEternitySlippedIn.htm

My Personal Escape Out Of Hell=

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/my-personal-escape-from-hell/13228

ClementofA · Aug 1, 2018

"I wanted to put into writing my own journey out of hell. That is to say my journey out of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. In a way it is a journey out of a personal hell because this doctrine did in fact torment me for a long time. As a non denominational pastor of 30 years with a full gospel Assembly of God back ground, I was reaching a place of intense inward struggle with all that I knew about Gods grace and love and acceptance, and then having to believe an alarm goes off and He transforms into a merciless judge who hates anyone who for a plethora of reasons did not come into Christ in their short span on earth.

"I fought this for a long time. Of course hell is forever. Its right there in the bible.
The only problem was that this created an ever increasing spiritual dissonance inside of me of which the effect on my life and spirituality and view of the world I did not fully comprehend.

"Could believing in eternal conscience torment make a person more judgmental, less merciful, more prone to anxiety and depression and even make carnal thoughts and temptations harder to resist? Could this undermine the gift of grace a person was promised in Christ and keep them from living in the peace and joy and love that is supposed to accompany those born again?

"I would have never guessed that could be the case. The fact is I struggled in all those things for so long. I knew the standards I was to live by but I just assumed the devil was really concentrating on me because Im a leader and we get more enemy fire.
But when I finally opened my heart and began to read the volumes of online study available from the well researched and well reasoned proponents of Universal Reconciliation, It was like a desert was being filled with streams of living water down inside of me. I began to experience the grace powered life like never before.

"As I look back I realize that my spirit never really bore witness with the doctrine of eternal hell."

by Pastor Mark at

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/my-personal-escape-from-hell/13228

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

Friends: Another day breaks! Do you know the Son of Abba. His Name is Jesus Christ. You can begin your journey today. He calls: you follow.

I do wish to somehow put into words what cannot truly be fully articulated. It must be felt not telt! We know a man through our middle son who is one of the finest mechanics in the land. We were in a social environment last year when this devout Romans Catholic greeted me with words that still echo in my being!

"I love Jesus Christ!"

You can also know the Father of the Christ of glory: His Name is Abba, the most intimate of names describing the Most High God. You can wait to begin your journey when every knee will bow before Him in worship. Why wait? Life begins when He grasps you for Himself!

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear Hillsage: As a matter of fact, repentance must "be granted" by the Holy One. Furthermore, faith is not even ours, "we live by the faith of the Son of God." Faith from beginning to end flows from Abba! What a wonderful Realm of Him we have entered!

""In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." -C.S. Lewis-

On another board where ClementofA and I met, there is a man called Pcamps who just posted the following>>>>>

"I was at Chester Cathedral yesterday and they have this statue of Jesus at the well(pretty cool statue), it had enscribed around it this scripture...“Jesus said, ‘ the water that I shall give will be an inner spring always welling up for eternal life” (No idea what translation it is) , but i did like the translation of the inner spring always welling up. It spoke to me in a different way, and i just acknowledged that anything of God is never depleted but is always flowing over."

That my friends describes this world of the Unlimited One: fresh springs welling up and up and up!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/john/4-14-compare.html

Pneuma3 · Aug 1, 2018

Hillsage said:
To express such doubt as to "Who knows specifically" I must say your subsequent judgments of us, sound pretty decided. Such dichotomy in two sentences may just say more about your judgmental heart than it does our guilt IMO.

There is no verse in the bible, that I remember, saying you have to 'repent today'. But, if one doesn't understand the 'Spirit' of "today is the day of salvation" then that would certainly explain such confusion. Only religious man has limited God to this 'vapor/mist' of time, for God to fulfill his plan of salvation "in the ages to come". And as far as who the "little ones are watching"?, I can only say I totally agree. The nominal church of today is so indistinguishable from 'the world' that we are loosing the youth at alarming rates, especially in this country. And all the UR brethren that I 'personally' know and have 'known', all live lives at a much more exemplary level. Truly it is the hypocrisy of 'the church' which has disgusted some of them to leave the ORGANIZATION to only fellowship with the living ORGANISM at a home church level. But I am curious, who do you 'personally' know, that is living as these 'poorer' witnesses?

there is scripture which speaks directly to the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation because they are mocking God and causing others to mock Him.

For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Did God sit down and count the cost for the salvation of the world?

After He laid the foundation, Jesus Christ, for that salvation is He unable to finish what He started?

According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.

Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

This thread has become so slow F.L. trotted over to another Board who have attempted to bruise and discombobulate an old geezer. I only gave them 8 simple questions and you shall behold the answers in coming posts. In the meantime an old song has dropped into my empty head >>>>>>>>

THE HORNETS

Sung to the tune of "This Is Like Heaven To Me."

When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to time,
And help His own people to win.

The hornets persuaded them that it was best,
To go quickly, and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, No! No!
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce,
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, Oh No,!
They would not compel you' to go 'gainst your will,
But they'd just make you willing to go.

Chorus

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright;
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all know;
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

Chorus

When Moses was sent to lead Israel out,
To Canaan's rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting His Spirit they worshiped a calf,
But refused to obey God's Command.
God did not compel them to go to the land,
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years,
'Till He got them all ready to go.

Chorus

When Balaam was sent to the Moabite king,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God's Will to obey.
God can use any man, since He used Balaam's mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

Chorus

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

8 Questions=

1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

8 Responses To follow in coming episodes

needhugs · Aug 1, 2018

hi you guys... so i've been thinking...
you know the ways that UR believers harp on the fact that 'God created evil' and He is sovereign, and we have no free will, and ALL is of God?

well, God said something to me about that sort of stuff... way back when i first got saved and He was answering my questions

i was watching TV and there was a little skeletal baby on there, dying of AIDS, and i cried out to God, WHYYYYY????!!!!! And God IMMEDIATELY answered, and He was crying too! and He said 'Things aren't supposed to be this way!!! People are supposed to be one with God!!!'

how do we explain this? where was the fateful mess up that got out of God's hands?

also, i was thinking... you know how stopping the belief in eternal torture changes the nature of God in you?

i have come to the conclusion that when Jesus said 'be it done unto you according to your faith'... He meant that we will GET the God we believe in!!

so, perhaps it might not be so wise to believe that God is creating all this evil, when in fact 'create' might not be the right word...

are things supposed to be this way, coz God is creating all this carnage? or is there a bigger truth to be had yet?

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

FineLinen said:
8 Questions=

1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?

8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?

8 Responses To follow in coming episodes

1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?

God wants all men to come to know Him. But not all will.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

Because the future is not settled, and prayer can affect God.

3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

God's will is that all should come to repentance. It pleases God when someone does, and it pains Him when someone dies rejecting Him.

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

Would forcing someone to live with Him for all eternity be pleasing to God?

5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?

Is "pleasure" your standard for whether God is God? Why not recognize that the standard is that He is living, loving, personal, relational, and good?

6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)

Jesus died for all. Yet not all will accept his sacrifice.

7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?Declaring the end point of a race doesn't mean the person who set the finish line knows who will race, let alone win.

Declaring the destination for a plane doesn't mean the scheduler knows who will be on that plane.

8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?God cannot be good if, like a sadist and kidnapper, He keeps those who do not want to be with Him in His presence for all eternity.

And if God is not good, then He is not God, because God is good.

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

#1. The language of the koine is beyond a mere wish, or fancy. He willeth/wills all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." I am inclined to believe the will of all wills stands secure! His wishes do as well.

Do not worry about any being dwelling before the consuming fire of our God unwillingly. And, in fact, every knee bows in worship before Him, and every tongue confesses "You are Lord" to the Fathers glory. Such worship by every being, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld are NOT by perfunctory genuflections, but IN/EN the Name of all names. You do know what being in Christ Jesus means? Of course you do!

The scope is clear:

Every being in every dimension of our Fathers Realm singin in antiphonal worhip: every last one!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/2-pe...9-compare.html

If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

Your response=

Because the future is not settled, and prayer can affect God.

F.L. responds...

The future is indeed settled. His will & wishes prevails! Prayer out of union with Him "IN Jesus Name" is the union of the creature with the Creator. We do not change or "affect" God, we pray in union with the Name of all names. Such prayer changes nothing, we are simply in accord with the Will from whom the all comes, through whom the all exists & and in whom the all ends. He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all!
Question #3=

Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?

Your response=

God's will is that all should come to repentance. It pleases God when someone does, and it pains Him when someone dies rejecting Him.

F.L. responds=

Remember: the Will of all wills prevails! He is the Lord of the dead and the living. He is not a potntial Saviour; "He is Saviour of all mankind.."

But wait there is more>>>>>>>

He is the Saviour "especially" of those who believe/trust in Him.

Note

He is not the Saviour of only those who believe. He is Saviour of especially those who believe.

Koine monos= only

Malista= especially

Question #4=

4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?

Your Response=

Would forcing someone to live with Him for all eternity be pleasing to God?

My response=

Absolutely not!

When I am lifted up I will draw/drag off/ impel with power all mankind onto Me.

There is an old hymn of making us ready to go. That is precisely what Abba does!

My friend, my precious wife is breathing down my old neck and I am willing to go. I will try and get back perhaps tomorrow if all my toes remain on this side of Glory regarding the other 4 questions. Until then, may His mighty Presence lift us into a few more digits!

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

needhugs said:
hi you guys... so i've been thinking...
you know the ways that UR believers harp on the fact that 'God created evil' and He is sovereign, and we have no free will, and ALL is of God?

Dear Hugs: This must be brief. Mrs. F.L continues hot breath down my sensitive neck. I trust you hummed the Hornet song along with me; if you did you should begin to understand why F.L. is willing to go.

I cannot disclose the mystery of why God does what He does. I simply do not grasp His ways, and in particular what is termed "mystery." Do I trust Him? Yes!

mkgal1 · Aug 1, 2018

needhugs said:
hi you guys... so i've been thinking...
you know the ways that UR believers harp on the fact that 'God created evil' and He is sovereign, and we have no free will, and ALL is of God?

Oh goodness! You packed a lot in just this one quote.

First.....I'm an UR believer but I don't believe God "created evil" (that may be a WHOLE other topic)...but to sum it up, in Isaiah 54:16 it says,

"I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals beneath the forge and makes the weapons of destruction. And I have created the destroyer to destroy."

but then the text goes on to say:

Isaiah 54:17 ~ "No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the LORD’s servants, and their vindication is from Me,” declares the LORD."

If it weren't for our free will (I don't believe) there would even BE a destroyer (Satan). In the end....God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

needhugs said:
how do we explain this? where was the fateful mess up that got out of God's hands?

I don't believe anything ever "got out of God's hands". I believe He knew even before the foundation of the earth was formed that humanity would choose evil (like Cain).....but even before that, He had a plan to demonstrate His love for us (motivated by love....not wrath).

needhugs said:
are things supposed to be this way, coz God is creating all this carnage? or is there a bigger truth to be had yet?

That's a big question

*Supposed to be* is sort of a loaded phrase. I do believe God's love will win - in the end. Love is patient.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2018

QUOTE="needhugs, post: 73016972, member: 304070"]And God IMMEDIATELY answered, and He was crying too! and He said 'Things aren't supposed to be this way!!! People are supposed to be one with God!!!'
how do we explain this? where was the fateful mess up that got out of God's hands?
also, i was thinking... you know how stopping the belief in eternal torture changes the nature of God in you?
i have come to the conclusion that when Jesus said 'be it done unto you according to your faith'... He meant that we will GET the God we believe in!!
so, perhaps it might not be so wise to believe that God is creating all this evil, when in fact 'create' might not be the right word...
are things supposed to be this way, coz God is creating all this carnage? or is there a bigger truth to be had yet?[/QUOTE
=========================================
As written, the whole world is under the power of the god of this world (the devil hasatan). Also, the whole world is deceived (has been for thousands of years).

Yahweh and Jesus Planned to save as many as believe , they planned BEFORE creating the world and all that is in it. They also know perfectly that most people will always reject Jesus and reject His Father (as is the case today).

Who-so-ever will turn and come to Jesus, Jesus will in no wise cast out.

Who-so-ever will not repent of their life, is condemned already because of unbelief.

Yahweh provided the Only Way, Jesus, to Eternal Life, Salvation from sin and from the world and from the devil and from the flesh.

Few people ever find the Way, the Truth, or the Life - the Narrow Way,
because they are greedy or proud or willingly continue sinning instead of repenting
as
written "the whole world refuse to repent of serving (worshiping) demons" .....
This was true all along,
and is true today.

mkgal1 · Aug 1, 2018

NeedHugs.....this is an article that gives an explanation of that Isaiah passage:

Linked article said:
How the Destroyer Came to Be
Before God mentions that He created the destroyer, God says that He created the blacksmith (Isaiah 54:16a). The blacksmith blows on the coals and brings forth the instruments for his work. Though God created the blacksmith, it is the blacksmith who does his work and brings forth the tools and instruments from his forge.

While many tools that come off a blacksmith forge are used for good purposes, some blacksmiths create tools and instruments that can be used for evil. Sometimes, an instrument or tool which the blacksmith created for good could be used to cause great harm to others. Take a knife, for instance. If a blacksmith makes a knife to cut vegetables, but someone else uses it to kill humans, it is not the knife’s fault, the blacksmith’s fault for making the knife, or even God’s fault for making the blacksmith.

This is how to understand the statement by God in Isaiah 54:16b that He created the destroyer. It is not that God was out for bloody revenge, or because God wanted someone else to do His dirty work for Him. The destroyer is not God’s super-secret hit man who does what needs to be done so God can keep His hands clean.

No, Scripture is clear. When God creates, He only creates good things for good purposes. There is no evil intent in the heart of God. The destroyer was not created to be evil, or to do bad things. In fact, it might be best to realize that the destroyer was never created at all as “the destroyer.” Just as God did not create humanity sinful, but we became sinful through our rebellion, so also the destroyer became destructive, also as a result of rebellion.

Death, decay, and destruction are the natural consequence of disobeying God and going against His will. The only way that God can be said to have created the destroyer is by saying that He created a being with genuine free will, and in so doing, restricted Himself from intervening when that free being chose to depart from God’s perfect will.

God did not make or create death and destruction, but did allow for their possibility when He created life and gave freedom to His creation.

It is the same with human beings.~The Flood According to Isaiah 54:7-9

ClementofA · Aug 1, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Oh goodness! You packed a lot in just this one quote.

First.....I'm an UR believer but I don't believe God "created evil"

Yeah, i'm quite sure most (or perhaps even a very large vast majority) who have historically hoped for, or believed in, universalism (i.e. UR) concur that God did not create evil & that man has libertarian free will, e.g. the early church father universalists.

needhugs · Aug 1, 2018

mkgal1 said:
NeedHugs.....this is an article that gives an explanation of that Isaiah passage:

needhugs · Aug 1, 2018

mkgal1 said:
NeedHugs.....this is an article that gives an explanation of that Isaiah passage:

oh gosh, i thought 'free will' is a false belief??? i'm getting confused... is that the same isaiah passage where it say that God created evil? just with different words?
i'm always getting cornered about that scripture... DID GOD CREATE EVIL OR NOT???? they say to me while i try and finesse my way out of it by saying He created the POSSIBILITY for evil
i just want to know how to think about it, when so many UR people say that evil is God's idea, and God said to me 'things aren't supposed to be this way!!!'... who do i believe??

also, if things aren't supposed to be this way, how is God 'sovereign"? sniff sniff

needhugs · Aug 1, 2018

Isaiah 45:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

here is a comparison between the different versions:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/isaiah/45-7-compare.html

FineLinen · Aug 1, 2018

mkgal1 said:
Oh goodness! You packed a lot in just this one quote.

First.....I'm an UR believer but I don't believe God "created evil" (that may be a WHOLE other topic)...but to sum it up, in Isaiah 54:16 it says,

"I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals beneath the forge and makes the weapons of destruction. And I have created the destroyer to destroy."

but then the text goes on to say:

Isaiah 54:17 ~ "No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the LORD’s servants, and their vindication is from Me,” declares the LORD."

Dear mkgal1: I thought you were seeking to know what is the substance of the Restitution of all things. Evidently my advanced age and the first time new glasses for my eyes is working havoc with my imploding brain.

For me the journey encompasses over 60 years, the entire road one of springs bubbling up into expanding dimensions of life. There are shazam moments but generally we are brought into Fathers Corner to learn of Him in the secret Place. Those lessons make it impossible to go in another direction!

One of my favorite people is an Anglican priest (gone Home to glory) on "the list" presented by slavejeff. Have you found any other Anglican's who are grasping any of this? At any rate, it is good to have you drop in as you are able. May the Lord bless you and yours!

"Grace is the celebration of life, relentlessly hounding all the non-celebrants in the world. It is a floating, cosmic bash shouting its way through the streets of the universe, flinging the sweetness of its cassations to every window, pounding at every door in a hilarity beyond all liking and happening, until the prodigals come out at last and dance, and the elder brothers finally take their fingers out of their ears." -Robert Farrar Capon-

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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