We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

Halbhh · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
Not my word sport... I have continually posted the passage where that came from and not one of you ever addresses the words of Christ. only my words.. how is it that you do not see my words as his words even if I copy and paste them?

Again here is christ telling the jews everyone is a slave to sin:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.

Here is christ tell the jews if you do not except this from the father it is because you except the lie your father satan has taught you:
38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

So who does Jesus identify their father to be FF to verse:
43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

45 “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

Again all out od the same book and chapter. I would post the whole thing but one of you will read it. you all look for one liners to tell you what to think. so when you see a block of text you ignor it.

Again what struck you were ot my words but the word of Christ to the pharisees who btw is on your side of the free will argument.

again sport not me.. these are the words/pov of Christ who is relaying the thoughts of the Father Himself.

38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

what did the Father Show Jesus?:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.

So again, not my POV. this is the POV per Christ Per the book of John chapter 8 Jesus says if you are a sinner you are a slave to sin.
which is exactly why I defined 'free will' from the start, gave many examples and sever illustrations, and then explained it in depth in the OP and again through out the thread, and not even cut and pasting actual verse segments that align it self with what I have said.

I have gone above and well beyond any reasonable expectation one could have on present you all with a clear argument. If their is confusion it is because you set off trying to change me or my definition to fit your dogma rather than examining the facts as presented.

And I pointed out via gal 4 that until you show evidences of the Spirit even those who have accepted their inheritance shall be treated and serve as slaves.

This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

One can not 'boast' of having been filled with the Spirit as outlined here if one can not accept the teachings of Christ Himself! If you argue and hate the idea of this Christ ordained precept of being identified as a slave then according to paul you are too young to be considered to be spirit filled and thus should be given the role as a slave till you 'mature'/no long are a child in the faith.

When you are in the right place, you won't assume what others are saying, but try to get what they are saying, and then have a lot less argument, and not call anyone "sport". In short, if you begin to do as Christ said, then it will all go better for you in discussions too.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would [will] not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

1213 said:
Or does Paul mean servants. As, person who willfully wants to serve, is not slave that I think does the job because he is forced to do it, not by free will. And Jesus gave freedom to us:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

This is too funny!
Who was jesus speaking to? the pharisees? what was their response? why do we need to be set free we are sons of abraham we were never slaves!!! What did Jesus then say??
34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.
did you intentionally quote the very same passage i used in the OP to make this whole argument possible? or were you just lucky and set your self up for some humble pie?

Not only that... You missed the point I was making in the section you quoted.
Primarily There is NO Koine Greek word for servant. the word is doulos and it literally means slave/bond servant. it was not till modern times that the 2nd definition of servant was added because of the distaste for the word slave modern westerners have for the word. Go into an older lexicon and the word slave is the only meaning.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1401&t=NKJV
Why because one's willingness or unwillingness to serve has no bearing on the matter. what makes a doulos a slave, meaning the crux of the definition means to have your will subject to the want and will of another. Meaning your master's will comes first. whether you elected this get paid don't get paid those are all modern western concerns/defination of slavery. in the OT and the NT one thing matter, who's will came first.

When Christ Identifies us as slaves to sin He is saying the will of sin comes first.

But have you not read what the Bible tells? God will end evil, but not yet. You might ask, why not? And I believe the reason is that people wanted to know good and evil like God. That is the reason why we were expelled to this first death where we can experience what evil means. Luckily this is only a short lesson and nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. And that is why evil is not really a problem, just something that we have to learn to know. And those who learn well and are righteous, can have eternal life with God and without evil.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Evil is only problem, if one doesn’t believe in God and in what the Bible tells. In atheistic point of view, there is only this “life” and it can be understood that things look bad. But it is not so, in Biblical point of view.

God is not unjust, or evil, He is perfect, good and righteous. And at least I have free will and can blame only myself for my own choices. But free will means only that person can want what ever he wants, not that he can have whatever he wants.

save the victory lap/closing statement till you establish something. Otherwise you are just talking at people... none of this means doodly squat unless you can explain how it ties in to your point... Jesus himself hated the pharisees for puffing themselves up with many words in their prayers and sermons... If you can't take the time to explain something leave it out.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Those without free will don't make it to heaven.

glob..
define free will

Now define how free will is defined for use in this thread. per the OP...

Does you defination match that of the OP? then why are you coparing apples and oranges? do you truly not understand anything that is going on? Then ask a question rather than try and win the day with a one sentence wonder post.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Voluntary" sinning will keep multitudes from ever seeing heaven, ever.

so does compulsory sinning.. However through the atoning Grace of Jesus both voluntary and compulsory sinners will both be absolved, and the sinner will indeed still find heaven.

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

Are you aware that the concept of free will is all over the early Christian writings? These are people who were taught by the apostles.

ClementofA · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
Note this passage from Jeremiah.

Der Alter said:
You keep trying to shift the burden of proof to me when it is all yours. Here is what scripture says.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
God is speaking in this verse, Can you show me any verse where God Himself is speaking, not Paul or some other writer, said about the Israelites He destroyed in Jer 13:14.,
because they rejected Him, "Oops I changed my mind and now I will have mercy, I will have pity. I will spare and I will undestroy and save them?

If He didn't have pity - as regards the particular judgment in view - of the context - and killed them, how does that address what happens to them postmortem? Does He say
that after He destroys/kills them that He will - never - have mercy on them in the afterlife also? Or is the passage completely silent about any postmortem consequences?
Does the context even mention "hell"? No. Compare this a few chapters later from the same book & author:

Jeremiah 21:7
"Then afterwards," declares the LORD, "I will give over Zedekiah king of Judah and his servants and the people, even those who survive in this city from the pestilence, the
sword and the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their foes and into the hand of those who seek their lives; and he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword. He will not spare them nor have pity nor compassion."

Which proves the "not sparing" & not "having pity" is related to this life only and the particular judgement in view - in the context - i.e. being killed..."he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword". It has nothing to do with anything beyond this life, or postmortem consequences.

Show me where that quote or context says after He destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that He would also never have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do
that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say those destroyed (i.e. killed) cannot be saved postmortem. Or that they cannot receive correction and mercy postmortem. 1 Cor.5:4-5 says
destruction is for salvation. And Mt.1:21 + 2:6; Rom.11:26; Isa.45:21-25 all Israel shall be saved.

Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us
for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

It seems they will "come to Him" & "be ashamed" of themselves:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

And he that "comes to Him" shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).

Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

Halbhh said:
When you are in the right place, you won't assume what others are saying, but try to get what they are saying, and then have a lot less argument, and not call anyone "sport". In short, if you begin to do as Christ said, then it will all go better for you in discussions too.

know what a double edged sword is? the thing about them is it cuts both ways... in that where are you efforts seeking to understand what I am saying. Not one of you has made that attempt yet. what is all the ore madding is this is 1st grade stuff because we have a very direct command from Christ Himself which leaves no room for the shenanigans I've seen here today. not one of you will even acknowledge the word of Christ, for again it is HIS WORDS Taken From The Father that you argue with.. I respond with literally tens if not hundreds of cut and pasted verses, none of wich gets a word or comment rather you seek out a way to destroy the message be attacking the validity of the messenger.

BTW "sport" is a hard fought title young pilots strive for. I see you as a 'youngling' because you act, think and write that way. Meaning you use heavy hand with correction and accusation light in the scripture or none at all. you speak with passion and conviction from a house built on sand. I show you the rock, and you attack the builder. you argue the benefits of building on the sand.

This in a nut shell is a sport flyer. full of vim and vigor, but constantly on the cusp of crashing and burning. Why? because nothing you've said all day has any scriptural backing to it. you have quoted anything that I have not used to further my own message. none of you have. you only seek to wreck me or push me outside of the rules.

Look passion is great, but ultimately meaningless if there isn't some foundation/scripture to it. which bring me back to your point about assuming what you mean.. again I don't have to assume anything fore nothing anyone has said all day has a scriptural foundation to it. you want me to award your traditions and beliefs as you do for the very same reason.. I can't because I serve the God of the bible and will not compromise myself or those who are looking to serve the God of the bible simply because people wish it so.

i want to share the things God has given me, the things God has shown me and the things I have been allowed to experience through the Grace and mercy of Christ and the Holy Spirit... but you can't do that from where you are. You have to meet God on His terms. not as a matter of salvation, that is the easy bit. I'm am talking about receiving the Holy SPirit, gifts and fruit. That is not i'll meet you 1/2 thing. that is seek out and find me thing as per luke 11.

You can not do that if first you do not own up being a slave.

Humble yourself i the sight of the lord and allow Him to lift you up. Nothing more Humble than a slave.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would [will] not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Is this one of those chat bots? you know you enter a paragraph and it spits out jibberish that somewhat kind ties in just enough to sucker you ito going back and forth with it?

If not can you take a page or two and explain what any of this has to do with Christianity, then another page on how it applies to what I said then another page if you need it to explain away what Jesus said?

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

Butch5 said:
Are you aware that the concept of free will is all over the early Christian writings? These are people who were taught by the apostles.

Really????

Book Chapter and verse please... Show me, never mind you said people TAUGHT by the apostles..
So then who is right the people taught by the apostles or i dont know.. JESUS!

otherwise please explain what Jesus said about we being slaves to sin in john 8 when, and when the pharisees took up your position.

Again, who do you want to worship??? The God of the bible or the traditions of man?

What does God say in the bible "Any man who sins is a slave to sin." what does church tradition say? who do you worship? are you sure? then why advocate tradition over God's own words?

1stcenturylady · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
this would have been awesome if you did not chop up the meaning and apply your own. Why? because Paul is talking about this very subject, in detail. while christ speaks about the beginning, paul shows what the rest of a mature chrstian's life looks like:

starting from verse 1 this time:
This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

So what is the turning point? when do I as a teacher or we as teachers stop preaching the slave to sin slave/slave to God thing and start preaching the sons and daughters thing? Paul tells us in verse 6 and 7. When we receive the Holy Spirit. When one has a measure of the Spirit he can identify a similar measure in his brother's heart or in this case writing. You can't cry out abba father when you ignore HIS Own words spoken by Christ on this subject.

So in this specific case when 'we' are holding fast to church doctrine and will not acknowledge what Jesus Himself has said on the subject... well let's say this is not a shinning example of being filled with the spirit and 'free from slavery.' (Paul's words not mine. just like it is Christ's words who call people the off spring of satan who can not accept the idea that we sinners are slaves to sin.)

The reason a mature Christian does not sin, so is not a slave to sin, is because of the Holy Spirit. 1 John 3:9 says Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

This is the reason, even though Mary, a human being, was the mother of Jesus and had a sin nature, herself, Jesus did not sin. Why? Because from conception He had the Seed of the Father in Him. Those who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit have the same SEED in them. The Holy Spirit plants the fruit of the Spirit in us, and John 15 tells us of the pruning process Jesus takes us through. The mature Christian is a son or daughter of God.

1stcenturylady · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
This bit not so optimistic about.

Why didn't you leave anything about man's sovereignty over his choices from scripture? or was that was the gal verse fragment was about? the verse fragment once you put into context contradicts the very message you leave here. (personally I don't like it when people do that. Ive seen people take 1/2 verses and change the intended meaning just to win an argument, but when you take the other 1/2 of the sentence into consideration God's word shows them to be a liar. Here it took 4 verses.) in that God sees us and has us work as slaves even though we have received the right and freedom of our inheritance.

So let's look at examples from the bible where man's decision was not as 'sovereign' as you would have us believe. let's look at johna what did he decide about ninivva? didn't God force Him to go in the way of a big fish? what about moses wasn't he content in living as a shepherd in the desert? what about pharaoh where God harden his heart so he could do one more chart topping plague?

this statement is heart breaking if I am reading this right.

Are you saying I left too many verses for you to read? or are you saying you are to lazy to point out of of the too many verses there are proving free will?

Is this luke warm enough for you?

And I have no idea who calvin is. I quoted a dozen or so verses fro Jesus' own thoughts not calvins. and I asked you to reconcile what Jesus had to say not what you think calvin said.

If you can't or won't then know your lukewarm efforts aren't going to persuade anyone of anything even if they were on your side.

Not sure what your objection is about.

PaulCyp1 · Aug 1, 2018

If God is all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect.., then He can do anything, including allowing us the gift of free will. If He is unable to do that, then He is not all-powerful.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
begin

<dr01>Is this one of those chat bots? you know you enter a paragraph and it spits out jibberish that somewhat kind ties in just enough to sucker you ito going back and forth with it?
If not can you take a page or two and explain what any of this has to do with Christianity, then another page on how it applies to what I said then another page if you need it to explain away what Jesus said?<end>

end

"Gibberish" is spelled with a "g." What does this have to do with Christianity? When Paul wrote his second epistle to Timothy the only scriptures which existed at that time was the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:16
(16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Romans 15:4
(4) For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

My post addresses man's free will and agency. I even highlighted the words "will" so the reader cannot miss them. Perhaps if I made the font size larger that would help you.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
so does compulsory sinning.. However through the atoning Grace of Jesus both voluntary and compulsory sinners will both be absolved, and the sinner will indeed still find heaven.

Some few will, some many won't, as Jesus says clearly in His Word.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
glob..
define free will

Now define how free will is defined for use in this thread. per the OP...

Does you defination match that of the OP? then why are you coparing apples and oranges? do you truly not understand anything that is going on? Then ask a question rather than try and win the day with a one sentence wonder post.

You do not have to agree.
People without free will may never agree.
They also will not get to heaven.

ClementofA · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
i want to share the things God has given me, the things God has shown me and the things I have been allowed to experience through the Grace and mercy of Christ and the Holy Spirit... but you can't do that from where you are. You have to meet God on His terms. not as a matter of salvation, that is the easy bit. I'm am talking about receiving the Holy SPirit, gifts and fruit. That is not i'll meet you 1/2 thing. that is seek out and find me thing as per luke 11.

You can not do that if first you do not own up being a slave.

Some slaves of a master may freely choose to be free, while other slaves freely choose to remain slaves. Being a slave, therefore, does not hinder their voluntary choice (libertarian free will) to be free or not free.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-free-will/

http://reknew.org/2014/08/where-is-human-free-will-in-the-bible/

Tutorman · Aug 1, 2018

We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

No we do not and do not assume

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
Really????

Book Chapter and verse please... Show me, never mind you said people TAUGHT by the apostles..
So then who is right the people taught by the apostles or i dont know.. JESUS!

otherwise please explain what Jesus said about we being slaves to sin in john 8 when, and when the pharisees took up your position.

Again, who do you want to worship??? The God of the bible or the traditions of man?

What does God say in the bible "Any man who sins is a slave to sin." what does church tradition say? who do you worship? are you sure? then why advocate tradition over God's own words?

Have you considered that maybe you're misunderstanding some things. Keep in mind, when you say who do you believe, what you're really saying is whose interpretation of what Jesus said do you believe. Jesus isn't here and telling us what He meant. Therefore what we read must be interpreted. Our interpretations are highly influenced by our presuppositions, or what we already believe to be true when we come to the Bible. You see, the difference is that you and I have to read and interpret what is in the Bible. Those who were taught by the apostle aren't interpreting the Bible, they're telling us what the apostles taught them.

Eloy Craft · Aug 1, 2018

God has written His law on our hearts. This law is based on what God has created us for. He made us for our own sake ss well. There in lies our freedom. Freedom is the ability to do what ought to be done at every moment. This would be to never grieve our own heart. This is also doing God's will. The reason we exist comes from our creator. To not do what we are made for is to not be what fulfills our reason to be. Jesus showed us the pinnacle of free will on the cross. He was free to do whst ought to be done. Doing that made Him worthy for the next level of freedom. To not be bound by any law whatsoever. Even the laws of physics. That is the freedom He made us for. What ever we will is what is good to do. It wont be that we will it because it's good its good because we will it. That is what a will united to God is. Sharing absolute freedom with God.

We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

Everything You say is Life to me

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Well-Known Member

Charismatic Episcopalian

Newbie

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Similar threads