Is replacement theology biblical?

gordonhooker · Jul 31, 2018

Chinchilla said:
What is says .

I will rephrase my question then... What is it that you think it says?

Copperhead · Jul 31, 2018

Protestantismvsthebible said:
Do the new covenant replaced the old covenant?

Depends. Which Covenant?

1) The Adamic Covenant?
2) The Noahic Covenant?
3) The Abrahamic Covenant?
4) The Mosaic / Sinai Covenant?
5) The Davidic Covenant?

For instance, if it did away with the Noahic Covenant, you might want to improve your swimming and buy some high quality flood insurance. If it did away with the Davidic Covenant, then Yeshua no longer has any claim to be King. But Gabriel affirmed that covenant to Mary when he told her she would bear the Messiah.

Jeremiah tells us which covenant got replaced... the 4th one on the list above...

Jeremiah 31:31-32 (NKJV) “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

JerseyChristianSuperstar · Jul 31, 2018

If by "replacement theology", you mean supersessionism, wherein the Christians have replaced the unbelieving Jews as God's chosen people due to our acceptance of His Son the Lord Christ, and their rejection of Him, then yes.

But, in proper parlance, the people of Israel were the people of God in the Old Testament, and now the Christian church, composed of both Jews and Gentiles, is the people of God in the New Testament. That is fact.

Copperhead · Jul 31, 2018

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
If by "replacement theology", you mean supersessionism, wherein the Christians have replaced the unbelieving Jews as God's chosen people due to our acceptance of His Son the Lord Christ, and their rejection of Him, then yes.

But, in proper parlance, the people of Israel were the people of God in the Old Testament, and now the Christian church, composed of both Jews and Gentiles, is the people of God in the New Testament. That is fact.

Then who is the group that has to acknowledge their offense of rejecting Messiah at his first coming and call out for His return before He will? The Church?

Dave L · Jul 31, 2018

Protestantismvsthebible said:
Is replacement theology biblical?

“Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must obey him in everything he tells you.Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people.’” (Acts 3:22–23) (NET)

So there is no such thing as replacement theology. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and will graft them back in through faith in Christ.

Hawkins · Jul 31, 2018

Protestantismvsthebible said:
Is replacement theology biblical?

It is a yes and no. A covenant is rather an "added upon". If you don't choose the New Covenant, you will be subject to an older covenant. If you are a Jew and failed to choose the New Covenant with consent, you are subject to the Mosaic covenant. Both are in a valid status. Basically,

Noah's Covenant;
God wrote in our hearts a set of law for our conscience and moral code to reside on. All gentiles are born with this covenant.

Mosaic Law;
A set of tailored literal laws is designed for the Jews to follow. Still by no means says that the Jews don't need to follow their conscience and moral code to act. The newer covenant is "overlapping" the older one. All Jews are born with this covenant.

New Covenant;
It's not born with. It's chosen by an adult. When taken, it by no means says that we don't need to follow our conscience and moral code to act. Instead, it saves us from the point where we failed (we failed a lot).

Similarly, the Jewish Christians can still choose to follow Mosaic Law. The New Covenant will save them from the point where they failed the Mosaic Law (they will certainly fail at some point, here and there).

Protestantismvsthebible · Jul 31, 2018

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

parousia70 · Jul 31, 2018

Thos who would seek to "replace" the once for all Shed Blood of Christ for the remission of sins with future temple sacrifices of Bulls and goats in a coming "millennium" are the real replacement theologians.

The Church, in contrast, is JEWISH in its origin and existed all the way back in the Wilderness with Moses. The Church does not REPLACE Israel, rather it always WAS Israel's faithful remnant through which Israel Continues eternally.

dwbid42 · Jul 31, 2018

Here's some scriptures indicating Israel has not been cast off or replaced.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (New Jerusalem)

A71 · Jul 31, 2018

Israel and the Church were always one and the same.
The Church was not so much born at Pentecost, rather it went from adolescence to maturity.
Don't forget that the Church really began with Abraham,
Not Moses. The fathers were Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 brothers

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

dwbid42 · Jul 31, 2018

A71 said:
Israel and the Church were always one and the same.
The Church was not so much born at Pentecost, rather it went from adolescence to maturity.
Don't forget that the Church really began with Abraham,
Not Moses. The fathers were Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 brothers

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

"Church" The Greek word is ecclēsia. But this is used in the Septuagint many times for the “congregation” or “assembly” (of Israel), and that is the way it should be rendered here (cf. NASB, NIV). The translation “church” should be reserved for the Christian group. Word Meanings In The New Testament, One Volume Edition Ralph Earle

A71 · Jul 31, 2018

The Church/Israel simply changed and developed, but it is still the same Church/Israel.
[Unless you think the Church superseded Israel, in which case Israel would now be non-existent.]

Here is Abraham taking communion with the High Priest King of Jerusalem, Melchizedek - note that he also gives him tithes, so the point is clear, this is the Church.

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Hank77 · Aug 1, 2018

parousia70 said:
The Church, in contrast, is JEWISH in its origin and existed all the way back in the Wilderness with Moses. The Church does not REPLACE Israel, rather it always WAS Israel's faithful remnant through which Israel Continues eternally.

A71 said:
Israel and the Church were always one and the same.
The Church was not so much born at Pentecost, rather it went from adolescence to maturity.
Don't forget that the Church really began with Abraham,
Not Moses. The fathers were Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 brothers

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

I am not disagreeing with either of you I think your descriptions are accurate. I would ask you both how do you see these people.....

Adam and Eve. God Himself made the first sacrifice for atonement, sin, for them, by His grace He made atonement for them. Abel, Noah, and Job all made sacrifices before Abraham was called out. Job declared that he knew that his Redeemer would walk the earth someday. They had covenant relationships with God. They looked forward to the coming Messiah, their Redeemer, as all true believers did before before the Cross. Believers before the Cross looked forward to the one sacrifice for sin as we look back to that same sacrifice at the Cross by the Redeemer.

When God brought the people out of Egypt they were not just Hebrew people, they were a mixed multitude, Hebrews and others. Some of these others would believe and be grafted into Israel. Just as Ruth was as a proselyte to the faith. "Your God shall be my God and your people my people."

A71 · Aug 1, 2018

Hard question Hank.
Why did God put his flag in the ground with Abraham, and not a previous figure?

I can only point you in the right direction, but don't have a complete answer.
Israel came out of Egypt 1447BC, and Joshua would have entered the Promised Land 1445BC, 2450 years after the fall of Adam and Eve. Thus on the 50th Jubilee after the fall. Clearly God works to a timeline. Why he called Abraham 430(?) years prior.....Maybe you can work it out, I don't know

parousia70 · Aug 1, 2018

Hank77 said:
When God brought the people out of Egypt they were not just Hebrew people, they were a mixed multitude, Hebrews and others. Some of these others would believe and be grafted into Israel. Just as Ruth was as a proselyte to the faith. "Your God shall be my God and your people my people."

Here's what I know to be true.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possssed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multipled: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

Hank77 · Aug 1, 2018

parousia70 said:
Here's what I know to be true.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possssed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multipled: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

I see the same things you do.

I like the term, 'the Jewish church gone global."

I think the answer to where do Abel and the other faithful before Abraham fit in is answered by Jesus when He says,
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)"

Jesus declares Abel as being just/justified and there is only one way that could be true. Abel was justified in Christ by grace through faith and therefore, must be included in the One people of God.

chad kincham · Aug 1, 2018

Protestantismvsthebible said:
Do the new covenant replaced the old covenant?

Yes, the new covenant replaced the old one, but the problem for replacement theology is that the new covenant is still with the House of Israel, and as Paul wrote, we Gentiles are grafted on to their covenant by faith.
There is no such thing as a church covenant.

chad kincham · Aug 1, 2018

parousia70 said:
Here's what I know to be true.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possssed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multipled: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

chad kincham · Aug 1, 2018

The definition of replacement theology is that the church has replaced Israel to the point that wherever you see the word Israel in the New Testament, you substitute the church.

The problem with this is found in Romans ch. 11, where Paul shows us that Israel is a prodigal nation, that currently is ungodly, and doesn't believe in Jesus except for a remnant, but God has not cast out His people, and that they will one day see the deliverer come out of Zion (Jesus after His second coming) and believe in Him as a nation, then "all Israel will be saved".

Paul also wrote in the same chapter that we Gentiles are grafted onto the olive tree of Israel by faith.

The bottom line is, Israel is Israel, and the church is the church, and are separate entities.

Saintly Sinner · Aug 1, 2018

Christianity is not merely a branch of Judaism- it IS Judaism. What God promised Moses was fulfilled- God rests in Christianity- we are Spiritual Israel.

Is replacement theology biblical?

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