We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

bcbsr · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

We all know that "free will" is a Bibilcal doctrine. It's just that some pretend not to.

Halbhh · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

While if you take free will to be stuff like being headstrong or totally self sufficient it's obviously wrong, or if you take it to mean God can't know us, or see the direction we are heading, then it's obviously wrong, such extra meanings are not what people normally that think we have 'free will' actually are referring to.

The meaning is much more limited and simple. Free will = the ability to choose and act.

If we didn't have the ability to choose and act, then most of the Bible would be of no use, not make sense. For example:

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Here we see instructions. We are told to choose the narrow road and gate, and avoid the broad path most choose. We are instructed to do to others as we would have them do to us in all things.

Instructions make sense if we are able to choose to do them.

"Free will" is merely the idea that we are indeed able to choose to do things and then do them. Not that we are perfect or self-sufficient or such, but merely that we can make choices. That we can choose whether to gossip or lust, or failing in our intentions then confess and pray and ask for help. That we can indeed hear and listen.

To resolve the seeming contradiction to God's all-knowing, simply consider whether God necessarily made us fully predictable (instead of predictable only in certain ways). Of course God can see the direction we are going at this time and knows where the outcomes that direction leads to, but we can understand He made us able to make choices and sometimes change direction, with the pull and help of the Spirit aiding us.

TuxAme · Aug 1, 2018

Easy: the terms Trinity and Bible alone never appear once in the Scriptures, but all Christians believe in the former and some the latter.

One doesn't even need to look for the "doctrine of free will" or "predestination" in the Bible- perhaps the best place to start is with our knowledge that God is perfect in every way. All Christians believe this, right?

Now, if God is perfect, which makes more sense: that God forces our every action? Or that we are free to make our own decision to accept or reject Him? Does He force some, by no merit of their own, to attain eternal life? And others does He force- by no fault of their own- to spend eternity away from Him, all because of what He forced them to do?

Or, does God ask us to live a certain way, and promise us the grace to continue in that way of life, so long as we do as He commands? As opposed to forcing our actions, God offers us a better way of life, contingent on doing as He says, but leaving the decision up to us?

God is no tyrant; He's a Father. He will let us do as we please, but will never stop asking us to abandon sin and embrace His perfection.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

TuxAme said:
Easy: the terms Trinity and Bible alone never appear once in the Scriptures, but all Christians believe in the former and some the latter.

the term 'trinity' does not appear you are correct, but the concept that the trinity explain does appear. this is like a summary doctrine. in that it describes a principle or event that the bible describes, but rather list out the components of a principle a name is given to summerize a precept or doctrine. like the olivet discourse. while the term does not appear i the bible it does refer to a event that the bible records in mat 24, and 25 mark 13 and luke 21. This is unlike the doctrine of free will because the bible NEVER mentions ANY of it. In Fact Jesus Himself Speak out and Says the opposite of what 'free will teaches, and even goes so far as to give a warning for those who can not accept being a slave without a will of their own.

One doesn't even need to look for the "doctrine of free will" or "predestination" in the Bible- perhaps the best place to start is with our knowledge that God is perfect in every way. All Christians believe this, right?

Yes I believe this do you? you you believe Christ's own words about this:
john 3:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

39 They said, “Our father is Abraham.”

Jesus said, “If you were really Abraham’s descendants, you would do what Abraham did. 40 I am someone who has told you the truth I heard from God. But you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.41 So you are doing what your own father did.”

But they said, “We are not like children who never knew who their father was. God is our Father. He is the only Father we have.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

45 “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

Again, If we seek to worship the God of the bible then it is by the bible from which we must use to frame and identify God and our own position. Clearly Jesus says we are slaves. No matter what you thought, from this passage on, if you worship THE GOD of the BIBLE then you must yield to this teaching and not something of our own or religious construct. If we do we loose out on who we are and who God is/We won't be worshiping the God of the bible but the god of our religion that gives us 'free will the bible is clearly against.

Now, if God is perfect, which makes more sense:

It is not about changing the bible to fit what you know. it is or should be about changing what you know to fit the bible.

that God forces our every action? Or that we are free to make our own decision to accept or reject Him?

did you even read the OP? Asked and answered there. In that we are only given ONE true choice to make and that is either to serve God as a slave or to continue to serve sin. that is why The passage I posted says: You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free. free from the bondage of sin. this theme is repeated over and over and over "you were bought with a price" the wage of sin.. every place you bible says servant, know in the koine greek the true translation is slave. So when we 'serve God' or serve sin the word real means to be a slave of..

Again not that slaves are not given to some choice. but choice IS NOT free will. Not according to any measure through the bible nor in modern terms.

Does He force some, by no merit of their own, to attain eternal life? And others does He force- by no fault of their own- to spend eternity away from Him, all because of what He forced them to do?

Again if you took the time to read the op I point to this singular choice we all have to make. Then I point out a singular true choice is not... free will. I defined the term free will so points like this one would be answered before they even come up. Because you can't have your own definition of free will and argue just because. If we both accept a common definition then compare it to what is written in the bible then there is no argument because what the bible allows for ( a singular choice) does not fit the common definition.

Or, does God ask us to live a certain way, and promise us the grace to continue in that way of life, so long as we do as He commands? As opposed to forcing our actions, God offers us a better way of life, contingent on doing as He says, but leaving the decision up to us?

God is no tyrant; He's a Father. He will let us do as we please, but will never stop asking us to abandon sin and embrace His perfection.

no argument here. As A choice is not free will.[/quote][/QUOTE]

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

bcbsr said:
We all know that "free will" is a Bibilcal doctrine. It's just that some pretend not to.

?????

Show me one place in the bible where it is even mentioned.

Then explain Christ's own words/thoughts concerning us/sinners being slaves to sin serving a sin master:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

39 They said, “Our father is Abraham.”

Jesus said, “If you were really Abraham’s descendants, you would do what Abraham did. 40 I am someone who has told you the truth I heard from God. But you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.41 So you are doing what your own father did.”

But they said, “We are not like children who never knew who their father was. God is our Father. He is the only Father we have.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

45 “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

If you did not bother to Read Christ's own thoughts here, in the end he says those who can not accept their status as slaves do not listen to His father/God but listen to thier own father Satan.

Again if free will is a biblically sound doctrine show me where the bible teaches it and explain why Christ and paul more over the whole book of romans teaches the opposite?

1stcenturylady · Aug 1, 2018

The Trinity made man in their likeness from the beginning. This is not in looks, but in sovereignty. Man is sovereign over his own choices. That is free will.

Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Galatians 4:7

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

Halbhh said:
While if you take free will to be stuff like being headstrong or totally self sufficient it's obviously wrong, or if you take it to mean God can't know us, or see the direction we are heading, then it's obviously wrong, such extra meanings are not what people normally that think we have 'free will' actually are referring to.

...
Which is why I defined the term and gave several examples that seperate "free will" from choosing between one thing you've been presented or another. simply choosing between two option is not free will As I pointed out even colonial slaves could make similar choices, but in no way were free.

being strong will for some is a choice while others just are.. what I am saying is either we choose to serve God..or we choose to serve Evil. God already knows what we have chosen.

The meaning is much more limited and simple. Free will = the ability to choose and act.

Ah, no. I actually used a proper definition to define free will. like it or not that is the proper english definition, any modifications to said definition are your own want for the word to mean something you 'feel' comfortable arguing. However in the real world free will is defined as
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

You are close but you left out the bit about acting without the constraint of necessity or fate.

Meaning if fate allows you to only choose between car A and Car B and you want Car D then your choice will not be of free will it will simply be a choice between the only options given to you.

For example in this life being a slave to sin, you have NO choice but to sin.. Every day.. without fail. sometimes without even making a choice. If not then sin would be a 'choice' and Jesus would not have had to died, if we could simply choose not to sin. the fact that no one can resist sin means that Christ is right and we are a slave to it.

If we didn't have the ability to choose and act, then most of the Bible would be of no use, not make sense. For example:

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

This all descibes a singluar choice. a single choice does not free will make. If a slave from 1820's georgia was given a choice between working the cotten field or working the tobacco field would he have 'free will?' would he be free? does a single choice made in true freedom make him free? Say this same slave got to marry his sweet heart from some far away plantation, and got to live in a house he himself built (on his current plantation) would that make him free? No He would still be a slave no matter how many choices no matter how many option given. That is what Christ is describing in john 8

Here we see instructions. We are told to choose the narrow road and gate, and avoid the broad path most choose. We are instructed to do to others as we would have them do to us in all things.

Instructions make sense if we are able to choose to do them.

again a singular choice is not free will.

"Free will" is merely the idea that we are indeed able to choose to do things and then do them. Not that we are perfect or self-sufficient or such, but merely that we can make choices. That we can choose whether to gossip or lust, or failing in our intentions then confess and pray and ask for help. That we can indeed hear and listen.

Not according to Christ. the idea of 'freewill' or freedom from sin is a lie from satan.
Not only does it set us up for legalism in our churches, it distorts our view and ultimately our relationship with God. Again Christ's own words you are arguing against here, verses nothing from the bible to support your thoughts.

To resolve the seeming contradiction to God's all-knowing, simply consider whether God necessarily made us fully predictable (instead of predictable only in certain ways).

The opposite of free will is slavery not programmability. to be a slave doesn't mean one is programed, it means one's will is subject to another's will first. any choices given will be through the filter of the master's own will. Again not that you have no choice but what choice given is through the will of the one you serve.

Of course God can see the direction we are going at this time and knows where the outcomes that direction leads to, but we can understand He made us able to make choices and sometimes change direction, with the pull and help of the Spirit aiding us.

If you are living the life we are called to live, then 'we/you' have no say. fore a slave does not tell his master when he will come and or go. That is the biggest lie 'free will' plants in our minds as members of the 'church.' we are all equal share sons and daughters. when in fact we are slaves to God.

When you see you self as a slave to God a lot changes. (for the better) when your out there 'free wheeling/willing it' God simply allows the wind and rain to pound you to what you have left of your house/faith is gone.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
The Trinity made man in their likeness from the beginning. This is not in looks, but in sovereignty. Man is sovereign over his own choices. That is free will.

Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Galatians 4:7

this would have been awesome if you did not chop up the meaning and apply your own. Why? because Paul is talking about this very subject, in detail. while christ speaks about the beginning, paul shows what the rest of a mature chrstian's life looks like:

starting from verse 1 this time:
This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

So what is the turning point? when do I as a teacher or we as teachers stop preaching the slave to sin slave/slave to God thing and start preaching the sons and daughters thing? Paul tells us in verse 6 and 7. When we receive the Holy Spirit. When one has a measure of the Spirit he can identify a similar measure in his brother's heart or in this case writing. You can't cry out abba father when you ignore HIS Own words spoken by Christ on this subject.

So in this specific case when 'we' are holding fast to church doctrine and will not acknowledge what Jesus Himself has said on the subject... well let's say this is not a shinning example of being filled with the spirit and 'free from slavery.' (Paul's words not mine. just like it is Christ's words who call people the off spring of satan who can not accept the idea that we sinners are slaves to sin.)

bcbsr · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
?????

Show me one place in the bible where it is even mentioned.

Then explain Christ's own words/thoughts concerning us/sinners being slaves to sin serving a sin master:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

39 They said, “Our father is Abraham.”

Jesus said, “If you were really Abraham’s descendants, you would do what Abraham did. 40 I am someone who has told you the truth I heard from God. But you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.41 So you are doing what your own father did.”

But they said, “We are not like children who never knew who their father was. God is our Father. He is the only Father we have.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

45 “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

If you did not bother to Read Christ's own thoughts here, in the end he says those who can not accept their status as slaves do not listen to His father/God but listen to thier own father Satan.

Again if free will is a biblically sound doctrine show me where the bible teaches it and explain why Christ and paul more over the whole book of romans teaches the opposite?

Too many verses. Every verse where the verb is in the imperative implies Free will.

Let along the implications you failed to deal with concerning the puppet model of Calvinism.

bling · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
the term 'trinity' does not appear you are correct, but the concept that the trinity explain does appear. this is like a summary doctrine. in that it describes a principle or event that the bible describes, but rather list out the components of a principle a name is given to summerize a precept or doctrine. like the olivet discourse. while the term does not appear i the bible it does refer to a event that the bible records in mat 24, and 25 mark 13 and luke 21. This is unlike the doctrine of free will because the bible NEVER mentions ANY of it. In Fact Jesus Himself Speak out and Says the opposite of what 'free will teaches, and even goes so far as to give a warning for those who can not accept being a slave without a will of their own.

Yes I believe this do you? you you believe Christ's own words about this:
john 3:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.35 A slave does not stay with a family forever. But a son belongs to the family forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you are really free. 37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. But you want to kill me, because you don’t want to accept my teaching. 38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

39 They said, “Our father is Abraham.”

Jesus said, “If you were really Abraham’s descendants, you would do what Abraham did. 40 I am someone who has told you the truth I heard from God. But you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.41 So you are doing what your own father did.”

But they said, “We are not like children who never knew who their father was. God is our Father. He is the only Father we have.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

45 “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

Again, If we seek to worship the God of the bible then it is by the bible from which we must use to frame and identify God and our own position. Clearly Jesus says we are slaves. No matter what you thought, from this passage on, if you worship THE GOD of the BIBLE then you must yield to this teaching and not something of our own or religious construct. If we do we loose out on who we are and who God is/We won't be worshiping the God of the bible but the god of our religion that gives us 'free will the bible is clearly against.
It is not about changing the bible to fit what you know. it is or should be about changing what you know to fit the bible.

did you even read the OP? Asked and answered there. In that we are only given ONE true choice to make and that is either to serve God as a slave or to continue to serve sin. that is why The passage I posted says: You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free. free from the bondage of sin. this theme is repeated over and over and over "you were bought with a price" the wage of sin.. every place you bible says servant, know in the koine greek the true translation is slave. So when we 'serve God' or serve sin the word real means to be a slave of..

Again not that slaves are not given to some choice. but choice IS NOT free will. Not according to any measure through the bible nor in modern terms.
Again if you took the time to read the op I point to this singular choice we all have to make. Then I point out a singular true choice is not... free will. I defined the term free will so points like this one would be answered before they even come up. Because you can't have your own definition of free will and argue just because. If we both accept a common definition then compare it to what is written in the bible then there is no argument because what the bible allows for ( a singular choice) does not fit the common definition.

no argument here. As A choice is not free will.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Everyone agrees that we do not have the free will to fly around the room by our own power, so we are limited in our choices. We can be extremely limited by our physical and environmental condition, but could every mature adult mentally make just one free will choice outside of these limitations and thus be a choice of his own discretion?

You define “free will” as: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

I would add “to act” this “or think”, since thinking can be a mental action, since we are focusing on “one’s own discretion”.

A slave is extremely limited to what he will do with a slave of satan always acting with a selfish motive and not being able to keep from the action of sinning, although like Paul in Ro. 7 might personally desire not to sin. Even though most of the time the sinner selfishly personally desires to sin, can He/she for a moment be like Paul in Ro. 7 and not want to sin, even though they go on and sin?

You are the slave of who you are following (which is a choice), so can you just stop following satan for a moment?

Does God have the power and Love to allow mature adult humans to truly make very limited (maybe just one) autonomous free will choices to accept or reject God’s pure charity, which will enable the human to become like God himself in that the human obtains the free unconditional gift of Godly type Love (Luke 7)?

Did God granted a very limited autonomous free will choice to Adam and Eve and if so why could God not do the same for all mature adults?

God can still be autonomous by autonomously choosing to allow humans one autonomous free will choice within the Limits His choosing?

Just as the prodigal son on his own did nothing worthy of anything, yet was brought to his senses by his own actions and made the free will choice return to the Father, can we (and really will we) be brought to our senses at least once, while in our mature adult situation, to decide to be macho and stay in the pigsty of life where we deserve to be or humbly turn to the Father we have hurt and ask for just some kind of undeserving existence, out of our selfish motivation?

A mature adult sinful nonbeliever cannot “do” anything righteous, worthy, spiritual or even unselfish, but does that also mean the sinful person, in this dead state, could not humbly accept pure charity for selfish reasons?

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
The Trinity made man in their likeness from the beginning. This is not in looks, but in sovereignty. Man is sovereign over his own choices. That is free will.

This bit not so optimistic about.

Why didn't you leave anything about man's sovereignty over his choices from scripture? or was that was the gal verse fragment was about? the verse fragment once you put into context contradicts the very message you leave here. (personally I don't like it when people do that. Ive seen people take 1/2 verses and change the intended meaning just to win an argument, but when you take the other 1/2 of the sentence into consideration God's word shows them to be a liar. Here it took 4 verses.) in that God sees us and has us work as slaves even though we have received the right and freedom of our inheritance.

So let's look at examples from the bible where man's decision was not as 'sovereign' as you would have us believe. let's look at johna what did he decide about ninivva? didn't God force Him to go in the way of a big fish? what about moses wasn't he content in living as a shepherd in the desert? what about pharaoh where God harden his heart so he could do one more chart topping plague?

bcbsr said:
Too many verses. Every verse where the verb is in the imperative implies Free will.

Let along the implications you failed to deal with concerning the puppet model of Calvinism.

this statement is heart breaking if I am reading this right.

Are you saying I left too many verses for you to read? or are you saying you are to lazy to point out of of the too many verses there are proving free will?

Is this luke warm enough for you?

And I have no idea who calvin is. I quoted a dozen or so verses fro Jesus' own thoughts not calvins. and I asked you to reconcile what Jesus had to say not what you think calvin said.

If you can't or won't then know your lukewarm efforts aren't going to persuade anyone of anything even if they were on your side.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

[/QUOTE]
Everyone agrees that we do not have the free will to fly around the room by our own power, so we are limited in our choices. We can be extremely limited by our physical and environmental condition, but could every mature adult mentally make just one free will choice outside of these limitations and thus be a choice of his own discretion?[/quote] AGAIN... Would this be true if a literal 1820's georgia slave could only make ONE choice outside of his limitations would he truly have free will?
Would He be any less of a slave?

We like a slave have been given ONE choice to make. Again John 8 Jesus' own words on the subject tell us No we are slaves, and if you can not accept this then you do not know the words of the Father/God, that you listen to your own father satan.

Again why do you argue with what Christ Himself has to say here? do you not trust your own eyes when I post the passage?

You define “free will” as: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.I would add “to act” this “or think”, since thinking can be a mental action, since we are focusing on “one’s own discretion”.

Again I purposely did not personally define the word but sourced an official source. Lest you have sway at google your input has little meaning in this conversation. Why? because you are defaulting to a strawman fallacy. you are changing the terms of the argument so as to be able to argue something you feel you can win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Not only that you are describing a completely different concept of free thought. one can be a slave and have free thought. Daniel was a good example of this. Literally held as a slave but worshiped God apart from what he was commanded to do.

A slave is extremely limited to what he will do with a slave of satan

Do you mean God is limited to what He will do with a slave of satan? YES!!! That is the point Jesus making in John 8! which is why it is important for us to know and accept our roles.
otherwise we could live a whole life and never once hear from God... Why do you think so many of us are unsure in our eternal status? Because God has never assured them of it. YES God will literally reach out in one form or another.. IF you are his... which you can not be if you do not first accept who you are. which is why so many are limited by what they know of God.

always acting with a selfish motive and not being able to keep from the action of sinning, although like Paul in Ro. 7 might personally desire not to sin. Even though most of the time the sinner selfishly personally desires to sin, can He/she for a moment be like Paul in Ro. 7 and not want to sin, even though they go on and sin?You are the slave of who you are following (which is a choice), so can you just stop following satan for a moment?

Can a slave not like emptying the chamber pots yet still do it and still be a slave? Can a slave hate shoveling out the stables and do it and still remain a slave.. again you are arguing God's precept not mine!

Paul in romans 7 answers you question for you!!!
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Do you see your answer staring at you from the passage you quoted me? If 'free will' was a thing a biblical thing, why would paul say this? why is their a struggle with in him? why does he call himself a slave to sin? why is there conflict? should he be able to will himself free? if the man who wrote 2/3 of the NT and in full contact with God, can not free himself from this bondage how have you done it?

Does God have the power and Love to allow mature adult humans to truly make very limited (maybe just one) autonomous free will choices to accept or reject God’s pure charity, which will enable the human to become like God himself in that the human obtains the free unconditional gift of Godly type Love (Luke 7)?

did you even read the op?

Did God granted a very limited autonomous free will choice to Adam and Eve and if so why could God not do the same for all mature adults?

God granted them one real choice as He did with us. (even though Adam's lot was about choosing names for everything) but only one real choice that matters.

God can still be autonomous by autonomously choosing to allow humans one autonomous free will choice within the Limits His choosing?

again already spelled out in the OP

Just as the prodigal son on his own did nothing worthy of anything, yet was brought to his senses by his own actions and made the free will choice return to the Father, can we (and really will we) be brought to our senses at least once, while in our mature adult situation, to decide to be macho and stay in the pigsty of life where we deserve to be or humbly turn to the Father we have hurt and ask for just some kind of undeserving existence, out of our selfish motivation?

A mature adult sinful nonbeliever cannot “do” anything righteous, worthy, spiritual or even unselfish, but does that also mean the sinful person, in this dead state, could not humbly accept pure charity for selfish reasons?

Is this just a general closing statement? I don't understand where you are going or wha you are asking as it does not seem to relate to anything said here topically.. with the prodigal it was his choice to leave and spend the money, but it was the father's choice to give it to him in advance of his death. It was the son's choice to return to work as a slave for his father. it was his father's choice to invite him back as a son. the rest of what you said... lost me.

I've said like 100 times we've been given a singular choice to make. but a singular choice does not equal free will. again slaves are given true singular choices, but it makes them o less a slave.

Halbhh · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
...
Which is why I defined the term and gave several examples that seperate "free will" from choosing between one thing you've been presented or another. simply choosing between two option is not free will As I pointed out even colonial slaves could make similar choices, but in no way were free.

being strong will for some is a choice while others just are.. what I am saying is either we choose to serve God..or we choose to serve Evil. God already knows what we have chosen.

Ah, no. I actually used a proper definition to define free will. like it or not that is the proper english definition, any modifications to said definition are your own want for the word to mean something you 'feel' comfortable arguing. However in the real world free will is defined as
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

You are close but you left out the bit about acting without the constraint of necessity or fate.

Meaning if fate allows you to only choose between car A and Car B and you want Car D then your choice will not be of free will it will simply be a choice between the only options given to you.

For example in this life being a slave to sin, you have NO choice but to sin.. Every day.. without fail. sometimes without even making a choice. If not then sin would be a 'choice' and Jesus would not have had to died, if we could simply choose not to sin. the fact that no one can resist sin means that Christ is right and we are a slave to it.
This all descibes a singluar choice. a single choice does not free will make. If a slave from 1820's georgia was given a choice between working the cotten field or working the tobacco field would he have 'free will?' would he be free? does a single choice made in true freedom make him free? Say this same slave got to marry his sweet heart from some far away plantation, and got to live in a house he himself built (on his current plantation) would that make him free? No He would still be a slave no matter how many choices no matter how many option given. That is what Christ is describing in john 8

again a singular choice is not free will.

Not according to Christ. the idea of 'freewill' or freedom from sin is a lie from satan.
Not only does it set us up for legalism in our churches, it distorts our view and ultimately our relationship with God. Again Christ's own words you are arguing against here, verses nothing from the bible to support your thoughts.

The opposite of free will is slavery not programmability. to be a slave doesn't mean one is programed, it means one's will is subject to another's will first. any choices given will be through the filter of the master's own will. Again not that you have no choice but what choice given is through the will of the one you serve.

If you are living the life we are called to live, then 'we/you' have no say. fore a slave does not tell his master when he will come and or go. That is the biggest lie 'free will' plants in our minds as members of the 'church.' we are all equal share sons and daughters. when in fact we are slaves to God.

When you see you self as a slave to God a lot changes. (for the better) when your out there 'free wheeling/willing it' God simply allows the wind and rain to pound you to what you have left of your house/faith is gone.

It stood out to me you said "Not according to Christ. the idea of 'freewill' or freedom from sin is a lie from satan."

You appear to use an exceptionally rare and unusual idea of 'free will' as being freedom from having a sinful nature?

That's not what other people mean when they say 'free will', so you'd only end up with a lot of misunderstanding unless you can make yourself more clear (and in fewer words too).

Also, perhaps others have already pointed this out, but Christ and the epistles point out we are through Him made children of God (instead of merely slaves). We are to be servants to each other, we are instructed, but ultimately through Christ, we are become restored as God's children (His sons and daughters, instead of slaves).

SkyWriting · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

You mean that God was arguing with Himself, or people were voluntarily involved in a discussion? Becasue I'm thinking it was all voluntary. Just like your typing this post.

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will? - OpenBible.info

1213 · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
…how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Or does Paul mean servants. As, person who willfully wants to serve, is not slave that I think does the job because he is forced to do it, not by free will. And Jesus gave freedom to us:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

drich0150 said:
Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil? … ….So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.

Melovent won't stop evil.

or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

But have you not read what the Bible tells? God will end evil, but not yet. You might ask, why not? And I believe the reason is that people wanted to know good and evil like God. That is the reason why we were expelled to this first death where we can experience what evil means. Luckily this is only a short lesson and nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. And that is why evil is not really a problem, just something that we have to learn to know. And those who learn well and are righteous, can have eternal life with God and without evil.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Evil is only problem, if one doesn’t believe in God and in what the Bible tells. In atheistic point of view, there is only this “life” and it can be understood that things look bad. But it is not so, in Biblical point of view.

God is not unjust, or evil, He is perfect, good and righteous. And at least I have free will and can blame only myself for my own choices. But free will means only that person can want what ever he wants, not that he can have whatever he wants.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2018

drich0150 said:
This came up in a thread a day or two ago and was surprised by how many people were arguing for free will.

If you ever take this argument into a... 'collage level' discussion with someone without an ear for all things religious, they would quickly point out or just ask how can free will be a point discussed in the bible when it wasn't even a topic of contention till 600 years after Christ? In fact the bible never mentions this term. Rather the oppsite is true. in that the bible/Jesus and paul identifies us as slaves.

Furthermore the topic of Free will was the primary weapon used to disprove a omni-max God. In that we people can not have free will if God is Omni-max. (Omni-max meaning all-powerful loving strong, all knowing ect..) this argument is one of many, it is known as the epicurean paradox. Many of you have heard this before: Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

The idea being if free will is choice then evil is the ultimate expression of free will, meaning if we had no choices other than what God has provided then everything we choose to do is God's will/without sin, if God is opposed to evil, then evil can not be God's will. However if God has given us free will then the evil i this world is also apart of God's will. hence free will is proved by the ability for us to commit evil acts yet God punishes us for working with in His will.

Now roll idea this into the what the paradox says.. These opposing ideas are what make the paradox of 'free will' impossible to the 6th century mind. in that on one hand God is powerless to stop evil, or as the paradox put's it melovent to evil, or He grants us the right to be evil no matter how you look at it the paradox has God breaking one of his omni-max attributes.

So according to this paradox, either God is not all powerful, can't stop evil.
Melovent won't stop evil.
or unjust/unrighteous, given us over to evil and then punishes us for being what he has created.

So how does a christian mind refute these ideas?
well one. we must recognise that Epurius' work was originally meant to describe his gods.. Not God/Christ. This paradox was written 300 years before Christ, and was a challenge to the greek God who do indeed claim to be omni max... Our God does not use those titles to describe himself. "we" attribute those titles to Him. He only ever called himself the alpha and omega and the beginning and the end. or "I am." More over, no where in the bible does God claim to be onmi-benolovent.

Yes God's love is endless, but it is not for everyone. Onmibenolvent God loves everyone to the max. John 3:16-18 explains this.. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES IN HIM... Shall not perish but have ever lasting life..17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

There is a condition to God's boundless love. Which means His love is not extended to everyone. Just to those who 'believe.' That in of itself breaks the epicurean paradox. In that the God of the bible never claims to be 'all loving.' He only being the alpha and omega (meaning he can do whatever he wants) offers endless love to His people/Those who want freedom from sin. Which bring us to verse 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.

In essence Jesus died to BUY those who believe from sin and evil. Why do i say buy? because the bible again never says we have free will, rather over and over and over again the bible even Christ describes us as slaves. We are slaves to sin or we elect to be slaves of God. and that is the only true choice we can 'freely' make.

"Oh but drich I choose what color car I have I choose where to eat lunch I choose who I married.. ect.. ect.." That is not free will. Those are examples of choices. true free will described 600 years ago is or was a thought experiment. it is not possible with or without God. for example let start by defining it now.
free will
ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

(google dictionary)
So it is not about choosing what is available to you but the ability to obtain or act without restraint. eaning you can obtain what you will without obstruction.. Example:

Let's say you did choose what color car you got, but did you choose out of all the cars that ever was or ever will be? is the car you got the One car you always ever wanted? or was it the color you wanted in your price range? Did you even get all the options you wanted? did they make you get the undercoating you didn't want? did you choose THE car or A car that fit your life style/budget?
Did you eat lunch somewhere you could afford locally? or did you hope on a jet and flew to nyc because you wanted 2 slices of real pizza? Did you marry that rock start or movie star that you really really like?or did you marry some guy from the singles group over someone else in the singles group?

Life is a series of choices a or b all of which are determined by your lot/station in life. Like a slave even a chattel slave in colonial america they had choices they were given. some were even given a small salary that they could spend on whatever they wanted.. Some even saved up to buy their own wives.. but even from our collective perspective now we would not say those slaves where free just because they had a few choices they could make. So too are we to God. We are not free. We are all slaves to sin which is why John 3:18 says he need not judge us, as we are prejudged when we do not accept Christ. because atonement buys us from sin. If we don't elect to be bought then we are already on the path to destruction.

Christ himself tells us we are slaves to sin and for those who can not except this are disavowing the words of HIS FATHER, in favor for the words of their own father.. We must accept the words of Christ because the doctrine of 'free will' is poison and will keep us from ever knowing or even understanding God's truth.

Those without free will don't make it to heaven.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

Halbhh said:
It stood out to me you said "Not according to Christ. the idea of 'freewill' or freedom from sin is a lie from satan."

Not my word sport... I have continually posted the passage where that came from and not one of you ever addresses the words of Christ. only my words.. how is it that you do not see my words as his words even if I copy and paste them?

Again here is christ telling the jews everyone is a slave to sin:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.

Here is christ tell the jews if you do not except this from the father it is because you except the lie your father satan has taught you:
38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

So who does Jesus identify their father to be FF to verse:
43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.

45 “I am telling you the truth, and that’s why you don’t believe me. 46 Can any of you prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God accepts what he says. But you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

Again all out od the same book and chapter. I would post the whole thing but one of you will read it. you all look for one liners to tell you what to think. so when you see a block of text you ignor it.

Again what struck you were ot my words but the word of Christ to the pharisees who btw is on your side of the free will argument.

You appear to use an exceptionally rare and unusual idea of 'free will' as being freedom from having a sinful nature?

again sport not me.. these are the words/pov of Christ who is relaying the thoughts of the Father Himself.

38 I am telling you what my Father has shown me. But you do what your father has told you.”

what did the Father Show Jesus?:
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, “If you continue to accept and obey my teaching, you are really my followers. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

33 They answered, “We are Abraham’s descendants. And we have never been slaves. So why do you say that we will be free?”

34 Jesus said, “The truth is, everyone who sins is a slave—a slave to sin.

So again, not my POV. this is the POV per Christ Per the book of John chapter 8 Jesus says if you are a sinner you are a slave to sin.

That's not what other people mean when they say 'free will', so you'd only end up with a lot of misunderstanding unless you can make yourself more clear (and in fewer words too).

which is exactly why I defined 'free will' from the start, gave many examples and sever illustrations, and then explained it in depth in the OP and again through out the thread, and not even cut and pasting actual verse segments that align it self with what I have said.

I have gone above and well beyond any reasonable expectation one could have on present you all with a clear argument. If their is confusion it is because you set off trying to change me or my definition to fit your dogma rather than examining the facts as presented.

Also, perhaps others have already pointed this out, but Christ and the epistles point out we are through Him made children of God (instead of merely slaves). We are to be servants to each other, we are instructed, but ultimately through Christ, we are become restored as God's children (His sons and daughters, instead of slaves).

And I pointed out via gal 4 that until you show evidences of the Spirit even those who have accepted their inheritance shall be treated and serve as slaves.

This is what I am saying: When young children inherit all that their father owned, they are still no different from his slaves. It doesn’t matter that they own everything. 2 While they are children, they must obey those who are chosen to care for them. But when they reach the age the father set, they are free. 3 It is the same for us. We were once like children, slaves to the useless rules of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, who was born from a woman and lived under the law. 5 God did this so that he could buy the freedom of those who were under the law. God’s purpose was to make us his children.

6 Since you are now God’s children, he has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts. The Spirit cries out, “ Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are not slaves like before. You are God’s children, and you will receive everything he promised his children.

One can not 'boast' of having been filled with the Spirit as outlined here if one can not accept the teachings of Christ Himself! If you argue and hate the idea of this Christ ordained precept of being identified as a slave then according to paul you are too young to be considered to be spirit filled and thus should be given the role as a slave till you 'mature'/no long are a child in the faith.

drich0150 · Aug 1, 2018

SkyWriting said:
You mean that God was arguing with Himself, or people were voluntarily involved in a discussion? Becasue I'm thinking it was all voluntary. Just like your typing this post.

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will? - OpenBible.info

define free will sport.

the cut and paste how free will is defined for use in this post....

are the two definitions the same? Meaning you mess/definition and the one pulled from the dictionary? if not why are you comparing apples to oranges? why do you need special instruction in something already explained?

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 1, 2018

SkyWriting said:
You mean that God was arguing with Himself, or people were voluntarily involved in a discussion? Becasue I'm thinking it was all voluntary. Just like your typing this post.

"Voluntary" sinning will keep multitudes from ever seeing heaven, ever.

We all know the doctrine of 'free will' is not a biblical thing right?

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