Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Saint Steven said:
This is my view.

In the twentieth century, church goers went to leadership and demanded to know why we weren't operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Leadership considered the matter and decided on a course of action. Rather than falling on their faces before God in repentance and crying out for a fresh Holy Spirit visitation on the church, they decided to formulate an apologetic argument to explain why we weren't operating in the gifts today. The result was Cessationism.

What you say is not true.

Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

Saint Steven · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
I'm only saying scripture is the perfect revelation Paul told us to look for that would cause tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge to cease. Do you think scripture is perfect?

Define "scripture" and define "perfect". My tendency is to say no, but it depends a bit on definitions.

Saint Steven · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
What you say is not true.

Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

How can you claim what I say is not true based on your reply?

I was talking about what I saw happen in the twentieth century. As rebuttal you quoted NT scripture with your personal interpretation.

And what of the closing statement by the Apostle to summarize chapters 12 through 14?

1 Corinthians 14:39-40
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Saint Steven said:
How can you claim what I say is not true based on your reply?

I was talking about what I saw happen in the twentieth century. As rebuttal you quoted NT scripture with your personal interpretation.

And what of the closing statement by the Apostle to summarize chapters 12 through 14?

1 Corinthians 14:39-40
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Apart from the two outpourings, the charismatic gifts came only through the hand of the Apostles. The gifts confirmed their authority. The gifts expired with them. They were the last and only Apostles.

Hillsage · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
I'm only saying scripture is the perfect revelation Paul told us to look for that would cause tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge to cease. Do you think scripture is perfect?

No I don't think scripture is perfect. And neither does scripture think scripture is perfect.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

In the OT there were denominations also and they too had their scribes and tweaked writings. There were Deuteronomists, Yawheists, and Masoretics. And one of the problems we still have today is that of modern day scribes still rewriting scripture today. Some corrections are good but most just defend indoctrinated beliefs from long ago. But unfortunately, also a long ways from the first century church. The dark ages weren't brought on by social darkness, they were brought on by spiritual darkness and a corrupted church system which lead to the world reaping what was sown spiritually into it.

And I think you've just confessed another problem above. You replace the Father, Son, Holy Spirit trinity with that of the Father, Son and holy bible trinity. The gifts that were manifest on Pentecost were to be available to ALL WHO ARE CALLED OF GOD. Are you?

ACT 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of (from) the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you SEE and HEAR.

The promise from the Spirit wasn't 'the Spirit', it was what they 'SAW AND HEARD'. And what they saw and heard was supernatural power.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."

The promise wasn't 'the Spirit' it was power from the spirit.

LUK 24:49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high."

You no more receive 'the Father' with "the promise of my Father" than you receive 'the Spirit' when you receive "the gift of/FROM the Spirit".

ACT 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;

Power is an entity not a person. The Holy Spirit is the person from which we get 'the entity' of supernatural power, like tongues.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Hillsage said:
No I don't think scripture is perfect. And neither does scripture think scripture is perfect.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

In the OT there were denominations also and they too had their scribes and tweaked writings. There were Deuteronomists, Yawheists, and Masoretics. And one of the problems we still have today is that of modern day scribes still rewriting scripture today. Some corrections are good but most just defend indoctrinated beliefs from long ago. But unfortunately, also a long ways from the first century church. The dark ages weren't brought on by social darkness, they were brought on by spiritual darkness and a corrupted church system which lead to the world reaping what was sown spiritually into it.

And I think you've just confessed another problem above. You replace the Father, Son, Holy Spirit trinity with that of the Father, Son and holy bible trinity. The gifts that were manifest on Pentecost were to be available to ALL WHO ARE CALLED OF GOD. Are you?

ACT 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of (from) the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you SEE and HEAR.

The promise from the Spirit wasn't 'the Spirit', it was what they 'SAW AND HEARD'. And what they saw and heard was supernatural power.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."

The promise wasn't 'the Spirit' it was power from the spirit.

LUK 24:49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high."

You no more receive 'the Father' with "the promise of my Father" than you receive 'the Spirit' when you receive the gift of/FROM the Spirit".

If you do not think scripture is perfect, we have nothing to discuss. Because you already have discredited it in correcting you.

Hillsage · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
If you do not think scripture is perfect, we have nothing to discuss. Because you already have discredited it in correcting you.

Just deal with the Jeremiah 8:8 scripture then Dave. Some worship the God of the Word and some idolize the word of God not knowing there is a difference.

JOH 5:39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;

PS
Bibliolotry is in the dictionary for a reason.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Hillsage said:
Just deal with the Jeremiah 8:8 scripture then Dave. Some worship the God of the Word and some idolize the word of God not knowing there is a difference.

JOH 5:39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;

PS
Bibliolotry is in the dictionary for a reason.

The scribes wrote books and taught classes twisting scripture. But you want to think they twisted the written word that God says is perfect.

“This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.” (2 Samuel 22:31)

swordsman1 · Aug 1, 2018

Hillsage said:
No I don't think scripture is perfect. And neither does scripture think scripture is perfect.

Ps 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; "

swordsman1 · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
Grudem makes every thing a "special point in history" concerning Pentecost itself, the "Samaria pentecost", Cornelius' household -- in other words, for every passage OTHER THAN 1 Corinthians 12:13, Grudem seems to say "Oh, this is a special case - a once-in-history time, and only 1 Corinthians 12:13 is the LASTING reference to baptism in the Spirit".

But you haven't proved Grudem wrong.

Anto9us said:
Lemme tell ya something -- the outpouring of Holy Spirit that Grudem acknowledges for the 60' and 70's was a once-in-history time that I LIVED THROUGH - received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in, was in college at the time and watched many many fellow-students receive the gift of Tongues, countless hours in informal gatherings where "so and so just got the Baptism!" and all the ensuing drama of "what did their church think about it? What did their parents think about it?" At the time I was a Methodist at the huge Baptist university -- Baylor -- and the rule, rather than the exception was that most of us students remained in our own denomination rather than saying "I'll xfer to a pentecostal/Assembly of God church".

Early 70's was a a special time in my life for sure, and I was far from alone -- Baylor kids of all denominations were getting the Holy Ghost LEFT AND RIGHT!!!

Whaddya think about them apples, Steve? Every week, somebody else got the Baptism!
It was unbelievable -- kids that you would have thought were the shyest, most timid -- gosh, that gal that you never heard a peep out of, raisin' her hands through the ROOF, Hillsage, turned into a Holy Ghost dancer in the blink of an eye!

You and your fellow students 'got' something, but I'm afraid it wasn't the Baptism of the Spirit nor was it the gift of tongues - according to the biblical descriptions of those things.

swordsman1 · Aug 1, 2018

Saint Steven said:
The pattern in Acts was two baptisms, if you will. Granted, the second experience is not always called a baptism. Though it was CLEARLY prophesied by John the Baptist. (Matthew 3:11)

1) Pentecost: Water baptism followed by receiving the "promised Holy Spirit"
2) Samaria: The Apostles were sent to lay hands on the new believers who had ONLY been baptized in water. (Acts 8:14-16)
3) Saul: Ananias of Damascus (not an Apostle) lays hands on Paul (Saul) to receive the Holy Spirit, followed by water baptism. (Acts 9:17-18)
4) Cornelius: The gentiles were filled with the Spirit prior to water baptism. (Acts 10 and 11)
5) Ephesus: The Apostle Paul encounters disciples of John the Baptist. They are water baptized in Jesus' name and Paul lays hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:1-7)

Grudem explains this.

Pentecost and Samaria were the only two instances in the whole of Acts where the HS was received subsequent to conversion. Obviously Pentecost was unique because that was the first time the HS was poured out on anyone. Samaria was unique because it was the first time that non-Jews were converted.

Out of all the other conversions in Acts, none record the HS being received subsequent to conversion, and water baptism was always subsequent to that. 1 Cor 12:13 says all believers are baptized in the Spirit, so either scripture is wrong or those 2 events were exceptions, not the rule.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

swordsman1 said:
But you haven't proved Grudem wrong.

You and your fellow students 'got' something, but I'm afraid it wasn't the Baptism of the Spirit nor was it the gift of tongues - according to the biblical descriptions of those things.

God only gave the gifts during the two outpourings and through the Apostles' hands. No more Apostles = no real tongues today.

Hillsage · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
The scribes wrote books and taught classes twisting scripture. But you want to think they twisted the written word that God says is perfect.

It appears to me that you simply are confusing that which goes 'present tense' from His mouth versus that which He inspired to be written;

ISA 55:11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

2TI 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Even Paul makes a distinction between that which was inspired of God and what was of him.

1CO 7:40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.
:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

So, do you believe the Spirit told him to write "I think I have the Spirit of God" and "speak I NOT the Lord", in what he wrote? You do know that automatic handwriting is occult right?

“This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.” (2 Samuel 22:31)

I have no problem with this verse in the context of what we're talking about.

P.S. That which proceeds from His mouth today 'present tense' is "the word" living, not written, which your pastor received when he believes he was CALLED BY GOD. :idea:

Hillsage · Aug 1, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Ps 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; "

I agree...the law of the Lord is....that which man altered isn't. Even if the original autograph was perfect....none exist to prove your claim. And the dead sea scrolls alone prove there is no perfect 'WRITTEN' text. God wanted our faith to be in a man named Jesus, not a book called bible.

P.S. I think it is time for you and Dave to get back to refuting my earlier posts concerning the OP. We are definitely off topic IMO.

DamianWarS · Aug 1, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Acts 2:11
(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The hearers heard more than one tongue. And recognized that they were ALL hearing what was spoken in THEIR own tongue.

I am undecided as to the meaning of the text but 120 were present during the day of pentecost and if each of the 120 spoke a different language then it would be extremely hard to decipher what a single 1 would be saying even if spoken in your native tongue. This doesn't seem to be an issue on the day of Pentecost as it seems easily understood by the travelling jews present.

the text says:
"Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how do we hear, each one of us, in our own native language?"

so the hearers are amazed that 1) Galileans are speaking their native tongue and also 2) saying "each one of us" so each language represented among the Jews is heard by the native speaker of that tongue.

This text can be consistent with an understanding that each Jew present only heard their own language and we can't just say this didn't happen. We are talking about a supernatural event so we need to allow both speaker and hearer to be possibly affected by the supernatural. What is also possible is that each of the travelling Jews may have had special ability to be tuned into the 1 that spoke their language. I think was is important is it seems very likely the hearers also had a supernatural experience as well and if we are to draw upon the biblical revealed manifestations of the Holy Spirit than interpretation would be consistent but manifested hearing ability would not be.

The opposing argument is the hearer were not supernaturally affected and only heard what was natural for them to hear. The text however seems intentional to say that all heard in their own tongue then it goes into lengths to describe not the tongues but the geographic areas present which each area may represent a myriad of languages.

RDKirk · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
I'm only saying scripture is the perfect revelation Paul told us to look for that would cause tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge to cease. Do you think scripture is perfect?

I don't think scripture is what Paul was referring to. Scripture had been what Paul meant--and if the early Christians had understood it so--they'd have been a lot more aggressive in settling the canon.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

RDKirk said:
I don't think scripture is what Paul was referring to. Scripture had been what Paul meant--and if the early Christians had understood it so--they'd have been a lot more aggressive in settling the canon.

The canon wasn't complete until John published Revelation. And then it needed collecting and sorting.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Hillsage said:
It appears to me that you simply are confusing that which goes 'present tense' from His mouth versus that which He inspired to be written;

ISA 55:11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

2TI 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Even Paul makes a distinction between that which was inspired of God and what was of him.

1CO 7:40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.
:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

So, do you believe the Spirit told him to write "I think I have the Spirit of God" and "speak I NOT the Lord", in what he wrote? You do know that automatic handwriting is occult right?

I have no problem with this verse in the context of what we're talking about.

P.S. That which proceeds from His mouth today 'present tense' is "the word" living, not written, which your pastor received when he believes he was CALLED BY GOD.

Only when quoting scripture.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Aug 1, 2018

swordsman1 said:
There was no prophecy that says apostles would cease, but they did. And apostleship is listed as a spiritual gift. So why not other gifts which we are told were also foundational to the church?

I’m referring to the way in which God manifest himself. It was prophecied God would be in flesh... it was prophecied God would be in us (Holy Spirit) there’s no prophecy about the holy Spirit changing. But also I ask this... let’s say in some hypothetical world you were right that gifts cease... you never show in scripture when they would cease or that they did cease. The one you quoted simply mentions that they will cease (and I pointed out how it does show when... when that which is perfect is come), but no one is perfect now... so I mean clearly that time isn’t here Yet... but anyway that’s beside the point. Paul mentioned it clearly as being a future state he was not yet in “I have only part knowledge but when I come face to face... I will know “... and he was old when he said this... so I mean I just don’t see how you ignore the Greek, common sense, age of Paul,etc that all point towards this being something that happens not in this life

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Aug 1, 2018

swordsman1 said:
'The perfect' is a poor translation of teleios in my view (see my previous post). 'Completeness' as per NIV etc is a better word, and yes I do believe 'completeness' has come, which in the context of revelation which 1 Cor 13:8-12 demands, is the completed new testament.

Paul says he’s not complete though.. so it couldn’t have come yet. Also we still live in the NT... its not complete...also we will have to agree to disagree regarding KJV vs NIV. I believe the KJV is more credible so I guess this discussion comes to a close here.

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