The Torah is still valid..

fat wee robin said:

The ten commandments are still valid.

Click to expand...

The New Covenant abolished them. But the New Covenant imports most of them for commentary and instruction purposes. Do you need to be told not to steal? If you walk in love, you won't want to steal. The New Covenant shows our works motivated by love. Not by the threats of sickness, loss, and exile the Old Covenant operated under.

You lot are assuming that you don't have to follow the Law of the Most High God anymore as if He would change such a foundational commmand.

Interesting, considering He never said He removed, set aside or made void the law. So, perhaps there are 1000s of "Christianity" - the strange religion - with several gods people choose to follow. It must be, because The Most High God, neither the Word of God ever said that the Law was made void, set aside or inert.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Mark 2:27-28

Click to expand...

You said read genesis. I was hoping the verse you provided as proof of Adam keeping the sabbath would come from genesis.

The verse you quoted from Mark 2 is in regards to the law of moses. The Pharisees are trying to trap Jesus, so he can face punishment for “breaking the sabbath”.

If the sabbath was instituted for man prior to the law of Moses, What was the punishment for not keeping the sabbath?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

prove it, so far you have provided no evidence...

Click to expand...

The burden of proof is not on him. You are the one claiming people kept the sabbath prior to moses and the Israelites. The burden of proof is on you.

Please provide any scripture that states those prior to moses and the israelites kept the sabbath

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

So you are saying that those under the law of Christ are lawless? The new covenant is the law WITHIN our hearts...we follow because we WANT to

Click to expand...

no, believers are in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. As believers we have Christ dwelling in us making us perfect unto every good work. We have no confidence in the flesh. We do not receive the Spirit by the hearing f faith and then try to add to that the works of the law or the flesh to be made perfect.

yes we will show forth the work of God in our hearts by our actions. But we are saved by grace through faith.

We do not confound the grace of God by going back into bondage again and seeking to establish our own righteousness by the Mosaic law.

Clarify meaning:
"No believers " OR " No. Believers are " ?

LoveofTruth said:

no believers are in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Clarify meaning:
"No believers " OR " No. Believers are " ?

Click to expand...

I forgot the comma it should read

"no, believers are in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.'

we are not without law to God but we walk in love in the Spirit and not the letter as Paul says in 2 Cor 3

Sigh!

With the death of Jesus - God officially took responsibility for Man's failure to uphold God's statutes... It is impossible for us to stand pure and righteous before God by our own work. Impossible.

So what do we have then? We have a broken covenant which is no longer in force....

But Jesus himself declared that not one yot or one tittle would pass from the law till all was fulfilled.... And that heaven and earth would pass away before God's law was invalidated...

What do we do with this?

Remember that our God gives GOOD BLESSINGS!

While we are no longer under the statute.... God did not change the nature of His creation... And God's law opens up a massive window into the nature of creation....

You are welcome to ignore that if you want... You are a big boy (or girl)... Choose for yourself.

Think of Matt 17. Jesus never strictly commanded his disciples to pray and fast...

Jesus sends out the disciples to preach, heal the sick, and cast out demons.... And some disciples fail!

And what does he do? Berate them for their lack of faith!!!! He expected them to perform - and they did not....

But then he reveals an object lesson... This kind will only come out with prayer and fasting... Wanna bet they prayed and fasted after that... Not because they were commanded to - but because they dearly wanted God's help in matters that comes with Isaiah 58 prayer and fasting

You don't strictly HAVE to do it... But you won't be able to accomplish certain things if you don't.....

Same for Torah... Sure - you can choose not to wash yourself or your kids... But don't then blame God for the rashes, sores, sickness, and stench... Sure - you can choose not to cook your food... But don't blame God for E choli, Salmonella, Cholera, and intestinal parasites.... God already provided a solution... God provided wisdom.... You choose to take it or not....

And then just don't worry about the stuff you can't do or doesn't apply... Because it's not strictly "Statute" for our purposes anymore.... It is for our learning and edification....

JohnC2 said:

But don't then blame God for the rashes, sores, sickness

Click to expand...

hahaha , you are correct ! Yet it is common on this forum and in churches
not to blame God
but to ACCEPT the trouble and sickness and sores and rashes FROM THE ENEMY
without knowing how to deal with the enemy nor with the sickness and sores and rashes.

On several continents the peoples have had knowledge of these things to prevent them or to remedy them when it happens (not all things, realize, but most, especially most common troubles) ....

for hundreds or even thousands of years ...... forbidden today so "for lack of knowledge" .... happens on purpose by the hand of men, even those called 'believers' or 'Christian' !

Not only is Jesus power denied (though the "form of religion" is maintained) ,
but
even the common natural knowledge God provided many peoples is denied/ forbidden,

usually because of greed in the higher powers of corporations and governments,
then passed down through all the lower levels they control.... (even pastors).....

Incorrect thinking. It will take time, and seeking from Yahweh the Truth.
Read for yourself what the Apostles taught,
read for yourself what is written in the Epistles in Scripture,
read for yourself what Jesus says in the Gospels,
read for yourself all TORAH as Yahweh spoke through men He called and chose to breathe His Word through for thousands of years.

Read for yourself, as long as it takes, read daily, read for yourself Beresheit (Genesis) through Malachi.... Matthew through the Apocalypse (Revelation) ....
Read for yourself prayerfully seeking Yahweh's Kingdom, Yahweh's Way, by faith in Jesus as Yahweh permits you to.

Incorrect thinking is widespread. False messages, false teachers, false gospels are common, very common.

Truth is rare and hard to find - few find the narrow path (Jesus) to life.

ewq1938 said:

All this law keeping stuff is not what the Apostles taught. What we have being taught in scripture is to reject such incorrect thinking.

Click to expand...

ewq1938 said:

It was proven and the evidence ignored or not understood.

questions.

Yes. Was it told to Adam? No.

Man yes, Adam no.

It was made for Israel men and women not anyone before Exodus.

Click to expand...

You provided NO evidence and No Scripture, where I have provided plenty which you continue to ignore! (Staff Edit) You obviously never read Genesis in Hebrew...

claninja said:

You said read genesis. I was hoping the verse you provided as proof of Adam keeping the sabbath would come from genesis.

The verse you quoted from Mark 2 is in regards to the law of moses. The Pharisees are trying to trap Jesus, so he can face punishment for “breaking the sabbath”.

If the sabbath was instituted for man prior to the law of Moses, What was the punishment for not keeping the sabbath?

Click to expand...

What was the punishment for Cain when he murdered Abel? There was no Law of Moses then so how was it sin? Yeshua said MAN, not Jews. He said it was MADE for Adam. It was not created at Sinai.

This is kinda funny.....

Nobody thinks you are smart or poigniant for trying to shake your fist at Gravity.... We lampoon and grant "Darwin awards" to the people who yell "Hey, hold my beer and watch this" and go jump off a bridge or a cliff to their own death....

That's the kind of "Laws" that most of the material in Torah covers..... "Laws" in the sense of gravity - not like arbitrary random violations for using the wrong make believe pronoun in public - but great wisdom that grants insight into the nature of both God and creation...

For example - I didn't circumcise my son because of any hope of spiritual superiority or out of fear of excommunication out of the Church or out of any hope of inclusion with Jews or Muslims who claim blood relation to Abraham... I did it because there is a 10,000x lower likelihood of his future wife contracting cervical or uterine cancer.... A testimony that Our God gives good blessings....

So sure.. Go prove your point and shake your fist at Moses... Don't circumcise your son and roll the dice on his wife contracting cancer.... Use roadkill for dinner,
eat bugs raw, or play with blood, guts, and dead stuff without washing - and spin the wheel.... You might be OK.... You are a big boy... It's not required for salvation... Make your own decisions...

Or maybe God put that stuff in there on purpose.... Kinda like Grandma yelling at you about playing in the street and jumping out of trees...

LoveofTruth said:

But we are saved by grace through faith.

We do not confound the grace of God by going back into bondage again and seeking to establish our own righteousness by the Mosaic law.

Click to expand...

No one is saying anything differently. You do not understand at all...

claninja said:

The burden of proof is not on him. You are the one claiming people kept the sabbath prior to moses and the Israelites. The burden of proof is on you.

Please provide any scripture that states those prior to moses and the israelites kept the sabbath

Click to expand...

I already have

ewq1938 said:

Believe what you want. Ignore the truth

Click to expand...

I am not the one blind

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

What was the punishment for Cain when he murdered Abel?

Click to expand...

For murder, he was placed under a curse, crops no longer yielded to him, and he was to be a wanderer.
Genesis 4:11-12 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

As we can see, there is a clear punishment for murder. God made it known that murder was wrong. There are multiple sins (murder, adultery, lying, stealing, covet, not honoring mother and father, idol worship, profaning God's name) that are punished by God prior to Moses and the Israelites. What is the punishment for not obeying the Sabbath prior to Moses and the Israelites?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

There was no Law of Moses then so how was it sin?

Click to expand...

Abraham slept with the daughter of his father prior to the giving of the law, what was his punishment for that sin?
Genesis 20:12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife
Deuteronomy 27:22 “Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.”

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yeshua said MAN, not Jews. He said it was MADE for Adam.

Click to expand...

The Sabbath was "made known" to the Israelites through Moses.
Nehemiah 9:14 and you made known to them your holy Sabbath and commanded them commandments and statutes and a law by Moses your servant.
The Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel.
Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them
The Sabbath was given to Israel as remembrance that God delivered them from Egypt and as a remembrance that God rested on the 7th day
Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slavec in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The Israel was COMMANDED to rest on the 7th day and keep it as a Sabbath
Exodus 16:23 he said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord


**Please provide scripture, where God commanded people, prior to moses and the Israelites, to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It was not created at Sinai.

Click to expand...

Genesis only states that God blessed it and made the 7th day holy. There is no command for people, prior Moses and the Israelites to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.