The Defilement of the Promises to Israel

Jerryhuerta · Jul 31, 2018

BobRyan said:
Bob Ryan wrote: Jeremiah predicts the first coming of Christ and the Jews accepting Him. That did not happen.

Ryan’s distortion of Jer 23:5 is taken from traditional Adventism and is also exposed as a misrepresentation in the evidence that Paul testified that God’s promises, like that of the kingdom to come, belong to the elect Israelites as opposed to their unchosen biological brethren: For many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14).

“They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” Rom 9:4-8 ESV

Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God. The doctrine that Christ offered the kingdom to the children of the flesh is defilement of the scriptural evidence that God’s promises go to the elect and not the children of the flesh. It exposes an unfamiliarity with the prophecies that Judah was going to be cast off again in Zec 10 and 11 and the evidence that Israel would find grace in the wilderness. In speaking of the latter days Jeremiah prophesied.

"At that time, declares the LORD, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people." says the LORD: "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest, LORD appeared to him from far away. I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.” Jer 31:1-3 (emphasis added)

This parallels Zec 10 were Ephraim, the northern kingdom is “scattered them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their children they shall live and return” (Zec 10:9).

Peter cites Hosea to affirm these exiles, this northern kingdom-nation, in times past had merited “No Pity” (Lo-Ruhamah) and had been declared “Not My People” (Lo-Ammi), had yet found grace in the wilderness in fulfillment of Hos 2:14-23.

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.” 1 Pet 1:1-2

“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” 1 Pet 2:9-10

God foreknew that the gospel would be taken to the exiles of the 10 tribes, Ephraim, and they would be the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard of Israel. They find grace in the wilderness, where they are nourished for 1,260 days (Rev 12:6). (Ryan's misrepresentation of Jer 23:5 also depreciates God's foreknowledge.)

“Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” Matt 21:42-43

OldWiseGuy · Jul 31, 2018

Excellent presentation. :oldthumbsup:

Jesus fasted in the wilderness in preparation for his ministry to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Matthew 4: 1-11. It is noteworthy where and to whom Jesus began his ministry.

12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 "The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

This scripture is taken from Isaiah 9. Isaiah chapters 7-9 contain the whole narrative, that of the rebellion and destruction of the northern kingdom by Assyria, but also the advent of Christ and the message of the gospel of the kingdom to the remnant that still dwelt there.

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.” Jer 23:5 (KJV unless otherwise stated)

Jeremiah predicts the first coming of Christ and the Jews accepting Him. That did not happen.

1. 490 years of Jewish probation ended at the time of Christ (shortly after His ascension into heaven) - the same event predicted by that 490 year timeline of Daniel 9

2. As Paul confirms in 1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

3. As Christ predicted in Matthew 23
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

4. Thus we have switched from the "nation-church" model of evangelizing the whole World - to the "persecuted church" model of evangelizing the whole world.

Rom 2 "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

==============================
Now it is the "second coming" that we look for and Christ wipes out the wicked at the second coming - and takes all the saints (including any saved-Jews that may exist at that time) to heaven.

In its explanation of Isa 11:4, the SDA bible commentary affirms Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom at his return (the second coming), 1000 years before the phenomena of Rev 21:1-3. What it does not say is that Christ rules on Earth at the second coming.

Rather Christ "rules with a rod of iron" Rev 19 - at the second coming described in Rev 19. Ruling with a rod of Iron is always the term for no-mercy... only justice. And that is what the wicked get at the 2nd coming.. are dead during the millennium and then at the great white throne judgment which gets to them into the lake of fire... see Rev 20.

Jerryhuerta said:
Ryan’s distortion of Jer 23:5 is taken from traditional Adventism

Just not in "real life".

In "real life" I was just quoting the Bible itself.

Bible details "matter".

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
“They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." Rom 9:4-8 ESV

Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God.

Is this another shooting of your own argument in the foot?

"He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:1 talking about literal Israel

Who were the "His OWN" group that did not receive Him?

"The were CUT OFF because of unbelief, you stand only by your faith" Romans 11.

"Cut OFF from what?"

These all point to literal Israel --

"To the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile" Romans 2 - refers to literal Jews.

Rom 9
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

A very clear reference in Romans 9 to literal Israel

Jerryhuerta · Aug 1, 2018

BobRyan said:
Is this another shooting of your own argument in the foot?

"He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:1 talking about literal Israel

Who were the "His OWN" group that did not receive Him?

"The were CUT OFF because of unbelief, you stand only by your faith" Romans 11.

"Cut OFF from what?"

These all point to literal Israel --

"To the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile" Romans 2 - refers to literal Jews.

Rom 9
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

A very clear reference in Romans 9 to literal Israel

You simple cannot read to understand. Let me reiterate. Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God. The doctrine that Christ offered the kingdom to the children of the flesh is defilement of the scriptural evidence that God’s promises go to the elect and not the children of the flesh. You are unfamiliar with the prophecies that Judah was going to be cast off again in Zec 10 and 11 and the evidence that Israel would find grace in the wilderness. In speaking of the latter days Jeremiah prophesied.

"At that time, declares the LORD, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people." says the LORD: "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest, LORD appeared to him from far away. I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.” Jer 31:1-3

The gospel went out to the highways (Matt 22) to invite the "exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," the other house of Israel, and they found grace in the wilderness according "to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Pet 1:1-2). Everything occurred at the appointed time and according to the prophets, which is what you defile with the notion that Christ offered the kingdom to the Jews. The appointed time of the kingdom is at the second advent, not the first as your misrepresentation asserts. Your open theism is unsettling! Jer 23:5 has Christ establish justice and righteousness on earth at the second advent, which quashes Adventism's desolate earth doctrine.

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
“They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." Rom 9:4-8 ESV

Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God.

Is this another shooting of your own argument in the foot?

"He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:1 talking about literal Israel

Who were the "His OWN" group that did not receive Him?

"The were CUT OFF because of unbelief, you stand only by your faith" Romans 11.

"Cut OFF from what?"

These all point to literal Israel --

"To the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile" Romans 2 - refers to literal Jews.

Rom 9
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

A very clear reference in Romans 9 to literal Israel

Jerryhuerta said:
You simple cannot read to understand.

The much-expected substantive response containing brilliant reason and logic to refute the points listed would have looked... "different".

Let me reiterate. Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God.

Let me reiterate- the "actual texts" quoted show irrefutable examples of literal Israel as God's chosen nation -- chosen to take the role as a nation-church in world wide evangelism. That nation-church model failed only to the extent that literal Jews rejected their own Messiah.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

That text does not "change" by the shallow tactic of "insulting me". (As fun as that might seem to be at times)

The promise of "Hell" in Romans 2 "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" who are living in rebellion is not at all a case of calling Jews "God's special obedient children of promise" and we all know it.

Your practice of ignoring details that don't fit the point you are trying to make is not helping you compose a compelling response.

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
Jer 23:5 has Christ establish justice and righteousness on earth at the second advent, which quashes Adventism's desolate earth doctrine.

"Adventism's" -- oh yes that is right - you said on that other thread that you don't want to be called a Seventh-day Adventist. Keep forgetting that.

"quashes the Bible's desolate earth doctrine" ... Until you read the actual Bible on the point of the desolate Earth during the millennium.

let's read the actual Bible.

Rev 19 all the wicked that remain on earth killed at the 2nd coming. desolate earth
Rev 14 all the saints taken... then all the wicked killed. desolate earth

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

I choose the Bible.

Jerryhuerta said:
The desolate earth perception chafes against the affirmation that the “wolf also shall dwell with the lamb” in the same context that Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom, which the SDA commentary maintains as entering the 1000 years.

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.” Isa 11:6
.

1. the SDA commentary does not say that on earth during the millennium lions lay down with lambs -- and we both know it.

2. 2 Peter 3 says that the "earth melts" at the "day of the Lord" which includes the second coming. OT and NT writers often collapse the entire 2nd coming, millennium, lake of fire and New Earth events into one "day of the Lord" - where all those events that happen over the period of a literal 1000 years is "as one day" with the Lord.

SDA Bible commentary separates them out as distinct events just as does the book of Revelation.

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
The appointed time of the kingdom is at the second advent,

Probation for all mankind closes in Rev 15:8 when the Sanctuary service in heaven shuts down.

Then comes Rev 16 the 7 last plagues.

Then comes Rev 19 the second coming

Then comes the desolate Earth period of 1000 years in Rev 20

We are told that the time for the frozen-state where the wicked the saints no longer change sides (As depicted in Rev 22 ) occurs before the second coming.

Just like it did in the days of Noah - 7 days before the flood - the door of the ark was closed.

You have to know that there might be a few Seventh-day Adventists on this area of the board - and they would know that what I am saying is in the actual Bible.

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
Your open theism is unsettling!

your imagination and creative writing is "unsettling" -- I have never stated that I believe in open theism. But I do see it as a "false choice" in opposition to the errors of Calvinism. The "other choice" is that the foreknowledge of God is "closed" even though mankind and God all have free will. If you think you can make a case against that -- have a crack at it.

You have free will - you can believe what you will according to your preferences.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 1, 2018

BobRyan said:
Is this another shooting of your own argument in the foot?

"He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:1 talking about literal Israel

Who were the "His OWN" group that did not receive Him?

"The were CUT OFF because of unbelief, you stand only by your faith" Romans 11.

"Cut OFF from what?"

These all point to literal Israel --

"To the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile" Romans 2 - refers to literal Jews.

Rom 9
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

A very clear reference in Romans 9 to literal Israel

The much-expected substantive response containing brilliant reason and logic to refute the points listed would have looked... "different".

Let me reiterate- the "actual texts" quoted show irrefutable examples of literal Israel as God's chosen nation -- chosen to take the role as a nation-church in world wide evangelism. That nation-church model failed only to the extent that literal Jews rejected their own Messiah.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

That text does not "change" by the shallow tactic of "insulting me". (As fun as that might seem to be at times)

The promise of "Hell" in Romans 2 "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" who are living in rebellion is not at all a case of calling Jews "God's special obedient children of promise" and we all know it.

Your practice of ignoring details that don't fit the point you are trying to make is not helping you compose a compelling response.

By your reasoning of Rom 9 the Jews who founded the church were rejected by God because they were the literal descendants. That’s absurd. That is not Paul’s testimony. The promises were to Isaac because he not only was Abraham’s literal descendant but was the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham by God. Paul merely states that, although it appears that Israel has failed their still remained a remnant that is saved.

“And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." Rom 9:27-28

Thus, “not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” only the remnant are the true Israel, saved from the foundation of the world. Adventism, replacement theology, which is the essence of what you believe and write, defile the promises to Israel by asserting God offered the kingdom to the unclean reprobates who disavowed Christ even as the remnant, to whom the kingdom was promised, avowed him.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 1, 2018

BobRyan said:
"Adventism's" -- oh yes that is right - you said on that other thread that you don't want to be called a Seventh-day Adventist. Keep forgetting that.

"quashes the Bible's desolate earth doctrine" ... Until you read the actual Bible on the point of the desolate Earth during the millennium.

let's read the actual Bible.

Rev 19 all the wicked that remain on earth killed at the 2nd coming. desolate earth
Rev 14 all the saints taken... then all the wicked killed. desolate earth

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

I choose the Bible.

1. the SDA commentary does not say that on earth during the millennium lions lay down with lambs -- and we both know it.

2. 2 Peter 3 says that the "earth melts" at the "day of the Lord" which includes the second coming. OT and NT writers often collapse the entire 2nd coming, millennium, lake of fire and New Earth events into one "day of the Lord" - where all those events that happen over the period of a literal 1000 years is "as one day" with the Lord.

SDA Bible commentary separates them out as distinct events just as does the book of Revelation.

This type of puerile responses I don’t reply to except to say, if you can’t surmount the exposé on replacement theology, which is the foundation this confusion, then why should I bother with it? Your foundation is built on sand, why should I be concerned with the structure?

Jerryhuerta · Aug 1, 2018

BobRyan said:
your imagination and creative writing is "unsettling" -- I have never stated that I believe in open theism. But I do see it as a "false choice" in opposition to the errors of Calvinism. The "other choice" is that the foreknowledge of God is "closed" even though mankind and God all have free will. If you think you can make a case against that -- have a crack at it.

You have free will - you can believe what you will according to your preferences.

The notion that God offered the kingdom to the unchosen and he didn't know how they would respond is open theism. If you knew how they were going to respond then why offer it? Of course he knew how they were going to respond because he ordained them to respond in that way. 1 Pet 2:8. He ordained them to respond in that way because it was not the appointed time of Christ's kingdom. Christ's kingdom was ordained for the second advent, when all of Israel's remnant will be saved (Rom 11:25-29). Your perceptions lead to circular reasoning and open theism.

BobRyan · Aug 3, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
“They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." Rom 9:4-8 ESV

Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God.

Is this another shooting of your own argument in the foot?

"He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:1 talking about literal Israel

Who were the "His OWN" group that did not receive Him?

"The were CUT OFF because of unbelief, you stand only by your faith" Romans 11.

"Cut OFF from what?"

These all point to literal Israel --

"To the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile" Romans 2 - refers to literal Jews.

Rom 9
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

A very clear reference in Romans 9 to literal Israel

Jerryhuerta said:
You simple cannot read to understand.

The much-expected substantive response containing brilliant reason and logic to refute the points listed would have looked... "different".

Let me reiterate. Only the children of the promise have rights to the kingdom of God.

Let me reiterate- the "actual texts" quoted show irrefutable examples of literal Israel as God's chosen nation -- chosen to take the role as a nation-church in world wide evangelism. That nation-church model failed only to the extent that literal Jews rejected their own Messiah.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

That text does not "change" by the shallow tactic of "insulting me". (As fun as that might seem to be at times)

The promise of "Hell" in Romans 2 "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" who are living in rebellion is not at all a case of calling Jews "God's special obedient children of promise" and we all know it.

Your practice of ignoring details that don't fit the point you are trying to make is not helping you compose a compelling response.

Jerryhuerta said:
By your reasoning of Rom 9 the Jews who founded the church were rejected by God because they were the literal descendants. That’s absurd. That is not Paul’s testimony.

And it is not a statement by me -- it is you 'quoting you' as if that proves your point.

Why keep doing that??

I never argue that the simple fact of being a literal Jew makes someone rejected by God.

Rather in the post above "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Not the spin you had wished for -- "And because they were HIS OWN they received Him not" -- apparently.

You need to keep the statements you are reading in context. Obviously Romans 9 and John 1 deal with literal descendants but as we see in Romans 2 and 9 they also makes statements about spiritual Israel. Try not to be so wooden in your reaching for examples -- pay attention to context. Remember "exegesis matters".

BobRyan · Aug 3, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
The notion that God offered the kingdom to the unchosen and he didn't know how they would respond is open theism.

True and you keep spinning that for us -- as if someone here is suggesting it.

Jerryhuerta said:
If you knew how they were going to respond then why offer it?

"If you knew Lucifer would rebel- why create Lucifer"?
"If you knew Adam would rebel - why create Adam"?

This is the question our children ask at about the age of 8.

And since you claim you were at one time an actual Seventh-day Adventist - do you remember the answer given?

hint: it was not this answer "Of course he knew how they were going to respond because he ordained them to respond in that way."

you are preaching Calvinism. Time to wake up on that point and come back to the actual Bible.

BobRyan · Aug 3, 2018

Jerryhuerta said:
Jer 23:5 has Christ establish justice and righteousness on earth at the second advent, which quashes Adventism's desolate earth doctrine.

"Adventism's" -- oh yes that is right - you said on that other thread that you don't want to be called a Seventh-day Adventist. Keep forgetting that.

"quashes the Bible's desolate earth doctrine" ... Until you read the actual Bible on the point of the desolate Earth during the millennium.

let's read the actual Bible.

Rev 19 all the wicked that remain on earth killed at the 2nd coming. desolate earth
Rev 14 all the saints taken... then all the wicked killed. desolate earth

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

I choose the Bible.

Jerryhuerta said:
The desolate earth perception chafes against the affirmation that the “wolf also shall dwell with the lamb” in the same context that Christ subdues his enemies and takes his kingdom, which the SDA commentary maintains as entering the 1000 years.

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.” Isa 11:6
.

1. the SDA commentary does not say that on earth during the millennium lions lay down with lambs -- and we both know it.

2. 2 Peter 3 says that the "earth melts" at the "day of the Lord" which includes the second coming. OT and NT writers often collapse the entire 2nd coming, millennium, lake of fire and New Earth events into one "day of the Lord" - where all those events that happen over the period of a literal 1000 years is "as one day" with the Lord.

SDA Bible commentary separates them out as distinct events just as does the book of Revelation.

Jerryhuerta said:
This type of puerile responses I don’t reply to

Your preaching does not "survive the details in the texts" as we can all see.

were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

The Defilement of the Promises to Israel

Historicist

Wake me when it's soup.

Junior Member

Junior Member

Historicist

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Historicist

Historicist

Historicist

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Similar threads