Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Thank you. For me, if the story is fictitious of the Ten Virgins, then the spiritual parallel is fictitious. Reality lines up with reality. Granted, the Bible does use metaphor and figures of speech. But even these metaphors are rooted in some kind of truth, too.

Jason0047 said:
To properly understand that Christ's parables are true and not fictional is helpful in understanding the Rapture because one of Christ's parables deals with the Rapture (i.e. the Foolish Five Virgins).

I am going to take a stab at it.

Notice the event happens at midnight, as did the event of the destroyer smiting all the 1st born of the Egyptians, the Passover:

Exodus 12:29
And is becoming middle of the night and Yahweh smote every of firstborn in land of Egypt, from firstborn of Pharaoh, the one sitting on his throne, unto firstborn of the captive which in house of cistern and every of firstborn of beast.

Matthew 25:
3 Who any foolish getting the lamps of selves not they got with themselves oil
4 The yet prudent ones got oil in the holders with the lamps of them. [Matt 13:48]
5 Of tarrying yet the Bridegroom they nod all and are slept.
6 Of yet middle of night a cry has occurred "behold! the Bridegroom.
Be ye coming out! into meeting of Him".
10 Of coming away yet of them to purchase, came the Bridegroom and the prepared ones entered with Him into the marriage-festivities, and is locked the door.
11 Subsequently yet are coming also the rest of the virgins saying "Lord! Lord! open Thou! to us"

In Revelation, it shows the Sanctuary is shut so no one could enter [whether there are any Saints in there I don't know]

Revelation 15:8
And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of smoke out of the Glory of the God, and out of the power of Him.
And no-one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers.

The day Titus [destroyer?] came to Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover [coincidence?]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.........
Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance

keras · Jul 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
As for Hebrews 12:8:
Nowhere does this verse suggest that we have to go through the Tribulation. Please show me in the context of Hebrews 12 that says we have to go through the Tribulation.

What is clear from NT teaching, is that we Christians must face trials and testing. As God's children, we must expect discipline, if we avoid it, then we are not His true children.
Therefore: the idea of a 'rapture to heaven' before any trials or 'tribulation', is contrary to scripture and 1 Peter 4:12 says: Friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal that has [will] come to test you...….

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

keras said:
What is clear from NT teaching, is that we Christians must face trials and testing. As God's children, we must expect discipline, if we avoid it, then we are not His true children.
Therefore: the idea of a 'rapture to heaven' before any trials or 'tribulation', is contrary to scripture and 1 Peter 4:12 says: Friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal that has [will] come to test you...….

You have a one track mind that we cannot face trials and persecution even without a tribulation. What do you think happened to Paul and the others?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I am going to take a stab at it.

Notice the event happens at midnight, as did the event of the destroyer smiting all the 1st born of the Egyptians, the Passover:

Exodus 12:29
And is becoming middle of the night and Yahweh smote every of firstborn in land of Egypt, from firstborn of Pharaoh, the one sitting on his throne, unto firstborn of the captive which in house of cistern and every of firstborn of beast.

Matthew 25:
3 Who any foolish getting the lamps of selves not they got with themselves oil
4 The yet prudent ones got oil in the holders with the lamps of them. [Matt 13:48]
5 Of tarrying yet the Bridegroom they nod all and are slept.
6 Of yet middle of night a cry has occurred "behold! the Bridegroom.
Be ye coming out! into meeting of Him".
10 Of coming away yet of them to purchase, came the Bridegroom and the prepared ones entered with Him into the marriage-festivities, and is locked the door.
11 Subsequently yet are coming also the rest of the virgins saying "Lord! Lord! open Thou! to us"

In Revelation, it shows the Sanctuary is shut so no one could enter [whether there are any Saints in there I don't know]

Revelation 15:8
And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of smoke out of the Glory of the God, and out of the power of Him.
And no-one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers.

The day Titus [destroyer?] came to Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover [coincidence?]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.........
Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance

The wailing wall (which was considered a part of the temple) still exists today. This actually destroys the Preterist Position.

Check out this image here:
https://image.ibb.co/ih76gK/wailingwall_zps39bab74a.jpg

So the Temple was not utterly destroyed like Jesus had said here in Scripture...

• Matthew 24:1a-2

And... the temple... There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

• Mark 13:1a-2

And... of the temple, ...there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In fact, according to Scripture, the outer court was considered a part of the Temple because the Israelite Temple is described as having two courts.

• 2 Kings 21:5

And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.

One court being the inner court...

• 1 Kings 6:36-37

And he built the inner court with three rows of hewed stone, and a row of cedar beams. In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid,

And the second court being the outer (i.e. KJV: utter) court...

• Ezekiel 40:37

And the posts thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

In fact, even Revelation 11 talks about leaving out the outer court in it's measurement of the Temple.

• Revelation 11:1-2

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In other words, John was going to measure the outer court as being a part of the Temple, but he was specifically told not to measure it.

Therefore, in conclusion:

The complete destruction of the Temple is still yet a future thing that still needs to happen.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I am going to take a stab at it.

Notice the event happens at midnight, as did the event of the destroyer smiting all the 1st born of the Egyptians, the Passover:

Exodus 12:29
And is becoming middle of the night and Yahweh smote every of firstborn in land of Egypt, from firstborn of Pharaoh, the one sitting on his throne, unto firstborn of the captive which in house of cistern and every of firstborn of beast.

Matthew 25:
3 Who any foolish getting the lamps of selves not they got with themselves oil
4 The yet prudent ones got oil in the holders with the lamps of them. [Matt 13:48]
5 Of tarrying yet the Bridegroom they nod all and are slept.
6 Of yet middle of night a cry has occurred "behold! the Bridegroom.
Be ye coming out! into meeting of Him".
10 Of coming away yet of them to purchase, came the Bridegroom and the prepared ones entered with Him into the marriage-festivities, and is locked the door.
11 Subsequently yet are coming also the rest of the virgins saying "Lord! Lord! open Thou! to us"

In Revelation, it shows the Sanctuary is shut so no one could enter [whether there are any Saints in there I don't know]

Revelation 15:8
And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of smoke out of the Glory of the God, and out of the power of Him.
And no-one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers.

The day Titus [destroyer?] came to Jerusalem was the feast of the Passover [coincidence?]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.........
Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance

Also, just read Revelation. Do any of those things sound like they happened already? Anyone who is honest with themselves would just say.... No, they did not happen yet. I can't remember hearing about an event in history where demons had come up of the ground. I don't remember hearing about an event of any enforcement of the Mark of the Beast. The 4th Seal causes death over one fourth of the Earth. Where did we see that happen in History?

DavidPT · Jul 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
This actually destroys the Preterist Position. The wailing wall (which was considered a part of the temple) still exists today.

Check out this image here:
https://image.ibb.co/ih76gK/wailingwall_zps39bab74a.jpg

So the Temple was not utterly destroyed like Jesus had said here in Scripture...

• Matthew 24:1a-2

And... the temple... There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

• Mark 13:1a-2

And... of the temple, ...there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In fact, according to Scripture, the outer court was considered a part of the Temple because the Israelite Temple is described as having two courts.

• 2 Kings 21:5

And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.

One court being the inner court...

• 1 Kings 6:36-37

And he built the inner court with three rows of hewed stone, and a row of cedar beams. In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid,

And the second court being the outer (i.e. KJV: utter) court...

• Ezekiel 40:37

And the posts thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

In fact, even Revelation 11 talks about leaving out the outer court in it's measurement of the Temple.

• Revelation 11:1-2

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In other words, John was going to measure the outer court as being a part of the Temple, but he was specifically told not to measure it.

Therefore, in conclusion:

The complete destruction of the Temple is still yet a future thing that still needs to happen.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

I don't think this prophecy has been fulfilled yet. It seems to me then, this part----and every wall shall fall to the ground---would certainly entirely fulfill this part in the Discourse---There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. If what is predicted in Ezekiel 38:20, and every wall shall fall to the ground, that this doesn't take the wailing wall down this time around, nothing will. Interestingly, in the Discourse it involves the land of Israel as far as the temple is concerned. Per this prophecy in Ezekiel 38 it also involves the land of Israel.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

keras said:
What is clear from NT teaching, is that we Christians must face trials and testing. As God's children, we must expect discipline, if we avoid it, then we are not His true children.
Therefore: the idea of a 'rapture to heaven' before any trials or 'tribulation', is contrary to scripture and 1 Peter 4:12 says: Friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal that has [will] come to test you...….

Also, see my post #420.

Now, what is the marriage of Christ to you?
Do you even believe there is one?
I am talking about Christ being married to His bride (i.e. the church).
When do you think that happens?
It appears those who have made themselves ready and when they heard the call, they were able to enter into the wedding. What about the invitation of the RETURN AFTER the wedding for more believers? This verse is in Luke. What does that mean to you? It is not the invitation to the wedding. It has already passed. It is another invitation. What does that mean in your book?

Biblewriter · Jul 31, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Huh?
Can you elaborate on that for me......

That will require a different thread.

keras · Jul 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I am talking about Christ being married to His bride (i.e. the church).
When do you think that happens?

Revelation 19:5-9 says: the Wedding Day of the Lamb has come and the Bride has made herself ready...…
This is just before Jesus appears in glory to all the world. Revelation 19:11
I tie this in with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where Jesus comes down from heaven and gathers His faithful people to Him, in the clouds. Matthew 24:31

So the thinking that the Marriage takes place before all that is prophesied to happen and before Jesus departs from heaven, is false teaching and won't happen.
Please give the verse ref in Luke.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

keras said:
Revelation 19:5-9 says: the Wedding Day of the Lamb has come and the Bride has made herself ready...…

This is just before Jesus appears in glory to all the world. Revelation 19:11
I tie this in with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where Jesus comes down from heaven and gathers His faithful people to Him, in the clouds. Matthew 24:31

So the thinking that the Marriage takes place before all that is prophesied to happen and before Jesus departs from heaven, is false teaching and won't happen.
Please give the verse ref in Luke.

It says his wife has made herself ready.
One is not a wife until one is married.

Luke 12:36: And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Revelation 19:7-9: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

I believe both of these pieces of Scripture is talking about the return from the wedding and that the marriage of the lamb is come now to the world with the marriage supper. The marriage supper includes the world in the fact that it is not a supper, but an attack upon the world. For the fowls will eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains, etc. The fowls are believers. They will mount up with wings like eagles. Granted, believers will not be cannibals and eat people. This merely means believers will gain the victory over this world through and or by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:7-8 is talking about the Church (represented by the wife) who is in heaven. For verse 9 says blessed are they who are called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb. That's the context. The marriage is now come to the Earth and Christ's wife is GRANTED or acknowledged for her past righteous deeds in Heaven.

Furthermore, the angel of God calls the saints to battle (Which is the wedding supper).

17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

This means that the saints are in heaven already.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

keras said:
Revelation 19:5-9 says: the Wedding Day of the Lamb has come and the Bride has made herself ready...…
This is just before Jesus appears in glory to all the world. Revelation 19:11
I tie this in with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where Jesus comes down from heaven and gathers His faithful people to Him, in the clouds. Matthew 24:31

So the thinking that the Marriage takes place before all that is prophesied to happen and before Jesus departs from heaven, is false teaching and won't happen.
Please give the verse ref in Luke.

In the 1st rapture (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture), the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

But shortly before Christ's second coming to earth (in the second rapture), Christ is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

Bible Highlighter · Jul 31, 2018

keras said:
Revelation 19:5-9 says: the Wedding Day of the Lamb has come and the Bride has made herself ready...…
This is just before Jesus appears in glory to all the world. Revelation 19:11
I tie this in with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where Jesus comes down from heaven and gathers His faithful people to Him, in the clouds. Matthew 24:31

So the thinking that the Marriage takes place before all that is prophesied to happen and before Jesus departs from heaven, is false teaching and won't happen.
Please give the verse ref in Luke.

Luke 12:36-38 says,
36 "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants."

" I tell all of you with certainty, he himself will put on an apron, make them sit down at the table, and go around and serve them." (Luke 12:37) (ISV).

The Lord has an apron and more saints are sitting at a table and they are about to be served. Sounds like a supper. The marriage supper of the Lamb.

LastSeven · Jul 31, 2018

DavidPT said:
In context, who does it say is raised on the last day? Show me in the context that it also includes the lost.

Why? If you know that the righteous are raised on the last day, isn't that enough to prove my point? We already know the "rest of the dead" (aka "the lost") are raised at the end of the thousand years.

So that should make it pretty obvious then, don't you think? The last day is at the end of the thousand years. Get it? We're raised on the last day, and the wicked are raised at the end of the thousand years. IT'S THE SAME DAY!!

LastSeven · Jul 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
Absolutely not. However, you leave out progressive revelation.

I said "Are you a spirit or are you a body?

The answer to that question is important because the verses I posted refer to bodies, but they also refer to "you". The Bible says "you are dust" and "you will return to the ground". So what are "you"? Are "you" spirit, or body?"

This question is to support my position that we do not have a spirit, but that we are simply made of dust and to dust we will return.

So why do I get the feeling that you're searching for a reason to tell me that I can't use old testament verses to prove my point?

LastSeven · Jul 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
What's absurd? Are you implying Jesus is teaching heresy or error?

You don't think people in heaven chatting with people in hell is absurd? You don't think that a guy suffering in hell, asking for a drop of water to alleviate his suffering is absurd?

How can you possibly think that's a true story. It's obviously a parable.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2018

LastSeven said:
I said "Are you a spirit or are you a body?

The answer to that question is important because the verses I posted refer to bodies, but they also refer to "you". The Bible says "you are dust" and "you will return to the ground". So what are "you"? Are "you" spirit, or body?"

This question is to support my position that we do not have a spirit, but that we are simply made of dust and to dust we will return.

So why do I get the feeling that you're searching for a reason to tell me that I can't use old testament verses to prove my point?

We have a material outer man and an immaterial inner man. See 1 Corinthians 4.

redleghunter · Jul 31, 2018

LastSeven said:
You don't think people in heaven chatting with people in hell is absurd? You don't think that a guy suffering in hell, asking for a drop of water to alleviate his suffering is absurd?

How can you possibly think that's a true story. It's obviously a parable.

You would have to make the assumption there was not an intermediary state.

Original Happy Camper · Jul 31, 2018

BABerean2 said:
There is a direct connection between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the subject of "soul sleep".

And what would that be?

Choose Wisely · Jul 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
In the 1st rapture (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture), the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

But shortly before Christ's second coming to earth (in the second rapture), Christ is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

I agree with you that there are two raptures. The first rapture is the Gentile Church, pretrib, when no one will know when the master comes. In an hour which you think not, the son of man comes. It will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed.

The other rapture is prewrath when those not in darkness will know when He is coming. That day will not take them unaware. They are told to look up their redemption draws nigh. It will be like the days of Lot....the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction will come. It will be the regrafted 12 tribes being raptured as proved by the 144,000 first fruits which are of the 12 tribes.

Original Happy Camper · Jul 31, 2018

LastSeven said:
Do you deny that we are raised in a different form than in which we died?

1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Pretty clear to me that we are changed

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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