Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

1Co 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So "the perfect" in 13:10 relates to the FACE TO FACE and KNOWING FULLY that Paul would know at some time in the future. That face to face knowing was surely not the completion of the New Testament canon. There is no justification whatsoever in saying the penning of the New Testament is what is talked about in this passage. WE are STILL in the NOW of seeing through a glass darkly -- we STILL look forward to a "THEN" when we see face to face and know fully. As John said

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Dave L · Jul 31, 2018

Paul. said:
What is you understanding of what is means to be born again? How does it occur and what are the requirements? What relationship does the new birth have to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Born again = eternal life. Not born again = eternal death. It begins with the new birth of the human spirit and culminates in the bodily resurrection on the last day. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit producing faith in our hearts.

Dave L · Jul 31, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Hebrews eleven is the faith chapter, not the "born again" chapter.
The Hall of Fame of faith, not the Hall of Fame of "born again".
I don't believe any of the OT Patriarchs were "born again".

But you must have the Holy Spirit to have faith. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR -- then there will be no need for tongues, prophecy, and word of knowledge -- til then, it aint over til its over.

Paul. · Jul 31, 2018

FenderTL5 said:
You titled the thread: "Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View"
What part of your post is Cessationist?

Dave L said:
We know a revelation came through John about the time speaking in tongues disappears from history.

Many gifts continue today as permanent endowments to the Church. We have miracles and healings through the prayer of faith (James 5:15). Also pastors, evangelists and teachers with the Apostles and Prophets cast in their writings (Ephesians 4:11). But God removed the apostolic signs and wonders with the death of the last Apostle.

emphasis added to Dave L quote

I wouldn't say it was full cessationist but it is definitely partial cessationist.

Paul. · Jul 31, 2018

Dave L said:
Born again = eternal life. Not born again = eternal death. It begins with the new birth of the human spirit and culminates in the bodily resurrection on the last day. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit producing faith in our hearts.

I will restate some previously unanswered question to make them clearer.

When or how does this new birth occur? Does it require the person to do anything?

What relationship does getting the new birth have to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Dave L said:
But you must have the Holy Spirit to have faith. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

We see the Spirit already active in Genesis chapter one. Born again doesn't appear until John chapter three. The new testament refers to it as THIS faith to differentiate from faith in general. The same is true of grace, compared to "grace already given". See below.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

John 1:16-17
Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Mal'ak · Jul 31, 2018

If the translators of the Bible just translated it as it should be, there would be no doctrine of speaking of tongues. Sadly, it just comes from ignorance of old terms. In ancient times and in middle ages when the Bible was first translated to English, they used the word "tongue" to say "languages". You can read any old English books, and read the phrase "and the Stranger spoke with a foreign tongue, we could not understand". But it says tongues, so some people trying to make a higher meaning out of it.

Deuteronomy 28:49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

In Acts it specifically says that everyone heard the men filled with the Holy Spirit in their own Language, and they spoke "that which was spoken by the prophet Joel". So was not the "groanings" that is mis-translated in other parts of the Bible, everyone Heard the words of Joel in their own Language, it was a miracle and it was a way to teach everyone the lesson of Joel.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

To the groanings and speaking to God in his own language, it is not literal. The Scripture clearly says that we humans do not know what to ask for from God, or how to speak to him. How would we as humans know what we should be asking for from the Holy Father of Heaven and Earth? So the Holy Spirit will speak for us to God, because the Holy Spirit will read our minds and hearts to know what we are trying to say to God and the Holy Spirit will translate it to God in the proper question or request.

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

For the interrupting and speaking in tongues, it just means that the spiritual gift of knowing languages. Some people have a "natural" ability to learn 5 or even 10 languages, while others like myself could not even try to learn a second language. This is a spiritual gift from God, so that people can teach to other nations and people in the world the Word of the Lord even if they have a different language. What it clearly says by Paul, is to not try traveling to teach in other nations if you can not speak their language or have a translator because you will just be wasting your time and God's time as they will not understand you.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Even in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit guided us what to say so we can do God's work. It is not literal in that we are speaking gibberish, it just means that the Holy Spirit is telling our mind what we should be teaching and saying. Works of men are as dirty rags, the Word says, which just means if we try to teach with our opinion and thoughts it will be trash and false. But if we listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then we will be doing a great work for the Father. Here in 2 Samuel David was told what to say by the Holy Spirit, "spoke by me, and his Word was in my tongue". But it was not gibberish, he was teaching the "Word" of God.

2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
2 Samuel 23:4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.

But I do agree Dave that people do the tongues for the "high", which it is, if you ask them it is physically pleasing and overwhelming. It is more relatable to sex then to Holy works, because that is all it is. People seek this "pleasure", and by doing so they are inviting evil spirits to enter them. The question you all have to ask; Does God using sexual/physical pleasure to pull us towards doing his Will, or does satan do that?

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Mal'ak said:
…
But I do agree Dave that people do the tongues for the "high", which it is, if you ask them it is physically pleasing and overwhelming. It is more relatable to sex then to Holy works, because that is all it is. People seek this "pleasure", and by doing so they are inviting evil spirits to enter them. The question you all have to ask; Does God using sexual/physical pleasure to pull us towards doing his Will, or does satan do that?

Psalm 16:11
You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Mal'ak said:
…
For the interrupting and speaking in tongues, it just means that the spiritual gift of knowing languages. Some people have a "natural" ability to learn 5 or even 10 languages, while others like myself could not even try to learn a second language. This is a spiritual gift from God, so that people can teach to other nations and people in the world the Word of the Lord even if they have a different language. What it clearly says by Paul, is to not try traveling to teach in other nations if you can not speak their language or have a translator because you will just be wasting your time and God's time as they will not understand you. …

The Bible says that speaking in tongues (and interpretation) is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

Mal'ak said:
People seek this "pleasure", and by doing so they are inviting evil spirits to enter them.

Attributing to evil spirits what is actually done by the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Mal'ak · Jul 31, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Psalm 16:11
You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Proverbs 21:15- It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Revelation 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Revelation 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

The "sweet ...joy" from the Lord, is the knowledge that we know him and are doing good along with have the gift of salvation. It is not physical, it is a mental state of being a peace and knowing everything will be alright. But as in Revelation 10 it can also be bitter, since we know there is eternal life, we also know there will be eternal damnation which will take many of our brethren.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

Mat 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mar 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luk 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 31, 2018

Dave L said:
According to scripture, God enabled believers to speak to him in a heavenly language. A language unknown except by him and those to whom he gave a gift for interpreting it (1 Corinthians 14:27–28).

Many think the Apostles spoke supernaturally in human languages at Pentecost. And people from different nations naturally understood what they said in their own tongue. But Paul says when a person speaks in tongues, they speak to God and not to men (1 Corinthians 14:2). So on Pentecost, the Apostles spoke to God in a heavenly tongue and devout Jews from every nation overheard them in their own native tongue. So they must have received the gift of interpreting too.

God delivered the gift of tongues personally in the baptism of the Holy Spirit during the Jewish outpouring and about seven years later in the gentile outpouring at Cornelius’ house. But all other times he delivered the gift of tongues through the Apostles’ hands (Acts 8:18). Scripture does not mention any other means of distribution apart from these.

God placed tongues and interpretation into groups of converts in various regions through the Apostles. So each church would have God’s word spoken personally to them by individual members who received the gift. We see the laying on of hands in Jerusalem (Acts 6:6), Ephesus (Acts 19:1–7), and Samaria (Acts 8:14–17) and throughout Paul’s journeys where he gave the gifts (2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11). God sent Ananias, who according to history was one of the original seventy disciples ordained by Christ, through whose hands Paul became healed and filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17).

They spoke God’s word through tongues and interpretation and through prophecy. With this they passed around the Apostle’s writings that would become the New Testament scriptures. Paul said tongues would stop when a better way, one that is perfect comes (1 Corinthians 13:8–10.)

Many think perfection happens in the new heavens and earth. But Paul qualifies this by saying whenever it comes, faith, hope and love would remain (1 Corinthians 13:13). Faith, hope and love fits well into this present world where we need all the faith, hope and love we can get. But in the world to come we’ll have all we ever hoped for and believed in. So Paul inferred tongues would stop sometime before Christ’s return on the last day, when hope and faith find fulfillment in the new world.

Paul urged believers to come behind in no gift until the coming (apocalypse or Revelation) of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7). This is the same word John uses for the apocalypse of Jesus Christ. What we call the book of Revelation.

So this is likely what Paul saw through a glass darkly. A revelation he knew was coming but didn’t know how or when. Paul urged them to continue seeking spiritual gifts until Christ provided a revelation. We know a revelation came through John about the time speaking in tongues disappears from history.

Many gifts continue today as permanent endowments to the Church. We have miracles and healings through the prayer of faith (James 5:15). Also pastors, evangelists and teachers with the Apostles and Prophets cast in their writings (Ephesians 4:11). But God removed the apostolic signs and wonders with the death of the last Apostle. And he gave us a more sure word of prophecy than tongues and prophecy could provide (2 Peter 1:17–20).

God withdrew the Apostles, honoring them in the Book of Revelation. He wrote their names in the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem with the names of the twelve sons of Israel. This brought to a close the apostolic age and the gifts that flowed through their hands.

Do you have scripture for God removing some of the gifts of the Spirit and why he did it? My bible says this
Corinthians 12:7-10 King James Version (KJV)

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. . Comment either we have the gifts or we don’t have them at all... cause this days the manifestation is given to every man... not just apostles

Mal'ak · Jul 31, 2018

Anto9us said:
Attributing to evil spirits what is actually done by the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

That is just a fear tactic, "believe what I say or you going to Hell". If someone says the Holy Spirit told them to stab their mother in the face with a knife, we can not say he is not listening to the Holy Spirit, because we would be blaspheming against the Spirit? By your fruits you will know them, God does not lure us to his righteous works with pleasures of the flesh, it is clearly a satan tactic even done to Jesus.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

The KJV translates Strong's G5046 in the following manner: perfect (17x), man (1x), of full age (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.

Outline of Biblical Usage G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.

Strong’s Definitions G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.

So THAT WHICH IS PERFECT (complete, mature) is something Paul contrasts with NOW, through a glass darkly, and he contrasts it with a THEN of which he himself would take part (Paul of Tarsus did not personally see a completed New Testament, he was martyred prior to that).

1Co 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul includes himself in this future coming of the PERFECT, COMPLETE, MATURE (Gr teleios) - he knows he will one day see THE REAL THING and not through a glass darkly - yes, when that day comes there will be no need for tongues, prophecies and word of knowledge, but it has not come yet.

The SEEING THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY phase still goes on for all of us -- today -- it continued past the completion of the New Testament.

Having a PERFECT word of God is not what is addressed, for that matter, the Old Testament was already in existence (they have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them)

THE LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT CONVERTING THE SOUL it says back in the Psalms, having a Bible is not what is addressed in 1 Cor 13:9-12; yes, it is great that the NT was completed, but we STILL see through a glass darkly - and it doth not yet appear what we shall be - but when he appears WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM as John says, and as Paul says he will no longer know only 'in part'.

Trying to plug in THE COMPLETED NEW TESTAMENT in 1 Cor 13:10 is the most outstanding example of EISOGESIS that I have ever seen. Cessationists pull something out of the air that was in no way in the context of 1 Cor 13:9-12 and say "SEE! IT MUST BE THE COMPLETION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT!" because it fits their theology, it certainly has nothing to do with the context of the passage.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

There is a PERFECT that is coming, when all our thoughts will be seen to be childish in comparison to the mature state of truly KNOWING God as He is; when our seeing through a dark glass will be over with and we will see Him as He is.

You and me and Paul will see THE PERFECT together. Then there will be no question what he was writing to the Corinthians about.

JLB777 · Jul 31, 2018

Paul. said:
What is your understanding of when and how the Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs? Do you see it as a separate and subsequent experience to salvation?

Yes.

When we are born again through obeying the Gospel, we are now a new wine skin, ready to be filled with new wine.

There are three distinct baptisms.

When we are born of the Spirit (born again) the Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ.

This occurs when we first believe.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13

Then usually the next thing is for us to be baptized in water by a Pastor.

Then we are baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

Paul explains using the Old Testament -

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

JLB

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

Mal'ak said:
That is just a fear tactic

You seem to be quite the MIND-READER, Mal'ak -- you say I am using a fear tactic, you propound this cockamaime idea that me and other charismatics speak in Tongues to get a high, a fleshly sensation akin to sex -- where in the world do you come up with your outlandish ideas? Who are you to sit there and proscribe motives for people you have never met?

Dave L · Jul 31, 2018

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Do you have scripture for God removing some of the gifts of the Spirit and why he did it? My bible says this
Corinthians 12:7-10 King James Version (KJV)

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. . Comment either we have the gifts or we don’t have them at all... cause this days the manifestation is given to every man... not just apostles

“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)

Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

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